Discussion: Zumwalts

[Hereno]

I have been approached by a member of the community who has asked me to make a thread to discuss the use of Zumwalt-class destroyers.

The poll options for this seem pretty simple.

Question 1: Is the Zumwalt-class destroyer allowed in the RP according to our current tech rules?
1. Yes
2. No
3. Not sure

Question 2: If the majority opinion in question 1 is that the Zumwalt is not allowed under the current rules, would you be in support of allowing an exception for this specific ship?
1. Yes
2. No

[Captain Enema]

Seems reasonable to me. No one seems to be able to pin point who allowed them in the first place. Everyone keeps pointing fingers or saying they have no idea. 

 

But, on the other hand, why is there even a vote needed? They aren't currently deployed or even anywhere near deployed. Their Initial deployment date is 2016. 

 

 

Edited September 3, 2014 by Tidy Bowl Man

[Hereno]

But, on the other hand, why is there even a vote needed?

No one seems to be able to pin point who allowed them in the first place. Everyone keeps pointing fingers or saying they have no idea.

It's easier to put it up to a vote than it is to take a 50/50 shot of having to deal with 10 pages of arguing in the GM thread.

[Voodoo Nova]

I'd say they fall under the same rules as all the custom Iowa's and Kirov's rolling around here.

 

The material used on the hull is current technology, with the tumblehome concept being centuries old. The armament is also all current technology. I'll go down the list on wikipedia, since that's what everyone uses here to determine these things.

 

Rolls Royce MT30 Engine - 2003

AN/SPY3 (AEGIS) - Early 2000's

Raytheon MK57 VLS System - 2005/2006

RIM-162 Evolved Sea Sparrow - 2004

Tomahawk Missile - 1986

RUM-139 VL-ASROC - 1993

Advanced Gun System - 2013 (The system is proven and will only be able to be used on Zumwalts)

LRLAP Ammunition - 2013 (Proven and being produced)

MK46 Gun System - 1983

SH-60/MH-60 Helicopter - 1984

MQ-8 Fire Scout - 2002

 

In short, the new technology is the AGS and LRLAP. There is nothing that makes this an invincible beast. It can still be detected on radar and sonar. The difference is, the signature on the technology will make the ship seem different than it's behemoth size, which is due to the hull design. If you look on the horizon, and this ship is around, you can put a visual on it just as easily as any other ship.

Edited September 3, 2014 by Voodoo Nova

[Centurius]

Also the planned commission date is march 2015, not 2016.

[Captain Enema]

 

Advanced Gun System - 2013 (The system is proven and will only be able to be used on Zumwalts)

LRLAP Ammunition - 2013 (Proven and being produced)

 

 

You got any links to back this up? Links that aren't so loaded with jibberish that they are unreadable would be useful. 

[Voodoo Nova]

 

You got any links to back this up? Links that aren't so loaded with jibberish that they are unreadable would be useful. 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Gun_System

 

First one was delivered in 2010, actually. The ammunition was delivered around the same time, since this gun can't use anything else at this particular moment.

[Yerushalayim]

The link describes them as under development (including the ammunition).

 

Additionally, even if each piece of tech worked individually, the ship itself is not in service. And even if the systems are in production, production isn't service (or else I'd be pumping out my own F-22's :P).

[Captain Enema]

The link describes them as under development (including the ammunition).

 

Additionally, even if each piece of tech worked individually, the ship itself is not in service. And even if the systems are in production, production isn't service (or else I'd be pumping out my own F-22's :P).

 

That's about the same conclusion I came up with. Further, the wiki page states 2016 as the IOC for the zumwalt. 

 

No real need for a vote here, this entire ship isn't deployed and won't be for sometime.

[Voodoo Nova]

The link describes them as under development (including the ammunition).

 

Additionally, even if each piece of tech worked individually, the ship itself is not in service. And even if the systems are in production, production isn't service (or else I'd be pumping out my own F-22's :P).

 

In the article: Production has started; the first magazine was delivered to the U.S. Navy on 25 May 2010.

 

Here is the video of it being built from the company: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFLOs84q6dI

 

The AGS exists. It has been produced. The ammunition has been produced, otherwise the gun wouldn't have been built.

 

You should be producing F-22's, since they were first done in 1996.

[Captain Enema]

Produced, tested, delivered, doesn't mean deployed. 

[Yerushalayim]

The ruling has been "in service" not "in production". Thus I don't get native F-22's, and the Zumwalt doesn't fall under the rules. Elsewise we could all have any sort of experimental stuff, so long as one was ever produced sometime in history.

[Centurius]

The ruling has been "in service" not "in production". Thus I don't get native F-22's, and the Zumwalt doesn't fall under the rules. Elsewise we could all have any sort of experimental stuff, so long as one was ever produced sometime in history.

That's already possible. Several people have systems derived from prototypes or highly outdated systems with upgrade programs that have no basis in real-life. That it isn't in service doesn't mean it doesn't work and there is also a difference between in service and commissioned..

Edited September 4, 2014 by Centurius

[Yerushalayim]

That's already possible. Several people have systems derived from prototypes or highly outdated systems with upgrade programs that have no basis in real-life. That it isn't in service doesn't mean it doesn't work and there is also a difference between in service and commissioned..

Has the ship been deployed? Is it ready for operations right now? Is it part of a naval group that's able to go on missions? My understanding is that the Zumwalt is not, at this time, ready for missions. That it is not being deployed. That it is a test ship that remains in development (with the IOC being set in 2016).

 

From the [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Initial_operating_capability]wiki article[/url] on IOC: "Initial operating capability or Initial operational capability (IOC) is the state achieved when a capability is available in its minimum usefully deployable form."

[Captain Enema]

tbh, i won't even care about the zumwalt ship itself. It's the AGS that needs to go. Replace it with a weapon of a known and proven and deployed design and I'd be fine with it. 

[Voodoo Nova]

The USS Zumwalt is not a test ship. It will be deployed. If it is needed before its official commission date, it will be used as a part of the fleet. Just because there are government regulations that dictate how procurement is done does not mean the technology cannot be used before the in-service date.

 

As a side note for this discussion, there is nothing in the rules that state it must be "in-service", just that it exists in or before the tech year. 

[Yerushalayim]

The previous GM call has been in service. Unless/until this GM team formally overturns that call, that remains the interpretation of the tech limit that I go by. Elsewise I can start fitting my army with railgun artillery, because railguns (albeit shitty ones) exist within my tech limit. Are they suitable for proper military use? Probably not, but they exist! Same thing with military lasers to shoot down aircraft and missiles. Shit, dudes have built mechas, does that mean Lynneth's Zakus are no longer optional canon? :P

[Evangeline Anovilis]

The AGS is being produced, test-fired, it exists and just is not yet in service yet. There's a very large difference between a Zaku and a Zumwalt.

[Yerushalayim]

Alright, so, Zakus are out. But mechas based on [url=http://www.33rdsquare.com/2012/07/japanese-enthusiasts-build-real-life.html]this[/url] are no longer optional canon? Just hook it up with proper military hardware, and start mass producing it. Because ONE has been built. As is the case with the Zumwalt.

[Evangeline Anovilis]

The Zumwalt has been designed with a weapon system and both the hull and the weapon system exists. And they even exist together. Kuratas were designed to fire BB guns, there is no concept of a proper weapon being strapped to it, there are no stress-tests for such, there are no purpose-designed weapons for Kuratas, in short, again, there's a difference between fitting a Kurata with a gun and a Zumwalt that exists already with weapon, but is not yet commissioned.

 

And I guess you could use a Kurata with BB ammo. Just that we both know that a person with an anti-material rifle or an RPG-7 will be able to pretty much trash it. If not even small arms fire from an assault rifle. I'd use a well-tested and better equipped, as well as easier to handly AFV like the LAV III or the RN-94 with an autocannon and actual armour over the Kurata anyday, because while they may cost up to 4 times the cost, I'm sure they also are more than four times as combat effective.

[Horo the Wise Wolf]

I'd be happy to have someone use a Mobile Suit against me in a war. Being not too feasible in real life, the war would be over pretty quickly.

Edited September 4, 2014 by Horo the Wise Wolf

[Triyun]

The link describes them as under development (including the ammunition).

 

Additionally, even if each piece of tech worked individually, the ship itself is not in service. And even if the systems are in production, production isn't service (or else I'd be pumping out my own F-22's :P).

 

A high performance fighter jet and a ship are two very different things.  Much of the issues with the raptor have to do with enduring high g-forces and strains that places on pilot and air frame.  Ships have their own concerns but nothing like this.  In fact the gun and air to air missiles on the F-22 were in service on other aircraft well before.  

 

Its also worth noting the crew actually has to be trained on the zumwalt and this is in large part what is being done right now it is a completely new ship.  Which means unlike on other classes it will not be manned by people who've already had a shift on other boats of the same time.

 

Also comparing military grade hardware to hobby shop enthusiasts is silly and in no way a slippery slope, there are clear rigorous DOD testing requirements not present in hobby shops.

[Mogar]

Kuratas exists in real life, as do heavy weaponry as opposed to the more "riot control" weaponry it comes equipped with regularly. If you really want to go with the "WELL IF ONE EXISTS IN REAL LIFE WE SHOULD BE ABLE TO USE IT AND CUSTOMIZATION IS OK", line of thinking, I'll pump out several hundred thousand of them.

[Voodoo Nova]

Kuratas exists in real life, as do heavy weaponry as opposed to the more "riot control" weaponry it comes equipped with regularly. If you really want to go with the "WELL IF ONE EXISTS IN REAL LIFE WE SHOULD BE ABLE TO USE IT AND CUSTOMIZATION IS OK", line of thinking, I'll pump out several hundred thousand of them.

 

Get Ariana's panties out of your ass, people do that with Iowa's, Y-23's and Kirov's already. 

[Mogar]

 

Get Ariana's panties out of your ass, people do that with Iowa's, Y-23's and Kirov's already. 

you got any more ad homs you want to throw out, or would you like to actually contribute to the conversation that it's a fairly slippery slope we've started going down already.