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A Better Space Roleplay Poll


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Horo has [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=113453"]an open request for a nation[/url], waiting for Voodoo to reply. I think one cannot say Horo is an uninvolved party now, just because he's sitting there for days waiting for a reply.

Edited by Evangeline Anovilis
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[quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1350258285' post='3041438']
I'm personally of the opinion it should remain non-canon, however if it is canon I think it needs to be heavily imposed on what it is plausible for nations IRL to do by 2030 and stuff needs to be highly highly regulated.
[/quote]
Without any notion of economy, afterwards considering launch loops, space elevators and other factors such as time invested into realistic designs, what is plausible and what isn't? It might be that the large cylinders could be beyond "build it within 5-10 years", but sheer size does not remove the possibility of constructing such structures, it merely lengthens the time one has to invest. With effectively infinite resources, physical laws apply.
We do need to apply rules to space if it becomes canon, yes, but applying the exact same ruleset or school of thought as used for CNRP's current rules will inevitably result in a cluster of $%&@s with proportions that none can possibly imagine. We all need to think very differently if this is to be done right and properly.

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[quote name='Lynneth' timestamp='1350259365' post='3041444']
Without any notion of economy, afterwards considering launch loops, space elevators and other factors such as time invested into realistic designs, what is plausible and what isn't? It might be that the large cylinders could be beyond "build it within 5-10 years", but sheer size does not remove the possibility of constructing such structures, it merely lengthens the time one has to invest. With effectively infinite resources, physical laws apply.
We do need to apply rules to space if it becomes canon, yes, but applying the exact same ruleset or school of thought as used for CNRP's current rules will inevitably result in a cluster of $%&@s with proportions that none can possibly imagine. We all need to think very differently if this is to be done right and properly.
[/quote]
The only one who gets cluster $%&@ed is you. Sucks how that works.

And not for nothing, but the actual feasibility of space elevators and space colonies is very much suspect, I've read a lot of the literature looking at this from a practical stand point. Even if there are no economies, there is a scarcity of resources and common sense. We've been over this a lot of times. You open up this can of worms, you better be ready for a whole lot of challenges, because the only reason your nation has not been hit with a whole lot of challenges is because it was understood it didn't count, complete with [i]exactly the same amount of courtesy you've shown me and my allies.[/i]

Edited by Triyun
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[quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1350262220' post='3041463']
The only one who gets cluster $%&@ed is you. Sucks how that works.

And not for nothing, but the actual feasibility of space elevators and space colonies is very much suspect, I've read a lot of the literature looking at this from a practical stand point. Even if there are no economies, there is a scarcity of resources and common sense. We've been over this a lot of times. You open up this can of worms, you better be ready for a whole lot of challenges, because the only reason your nation has not been hit with a whole lot of challenges is because it was understood it didn't count, complete with [i]exactly the same amount of courtesy you've shown me and my allies.[/i]
[/quote]
With 'cluster $%&@' I'm talking about people who have no idea what they're doing trying to get stuff into space. I know very much what I'm doing, and your claims that my nation would in any major way be impacted by space being made canon are baseless. The structures I'm using are stable and easily capable of withstanding the physical stresses upon them. Previously, I've said that I practically 'bankrupted' Sri Lanka to finance the habitats (as much as that's possible in the current RP environmnt), and even Guyana wasn't as 'liquid' as its rulers liked to claim. That right there is your economic argument out fo the window.
As for literature, did they merely talk about colonies as envisioned by the US president currently, with a minor outpost, or did the books try to look at the more 'fantastical' designs? Were the arguments backed up by anything other than "it's not economical", were the physics questioned? Without taking the maths behind these structures into account, those texts are nowhere as accurate as you'd like to think they are. I know the physics behind these things, and while I concede I might have to lower my population in space, I maintain that all of these colonies are, as per all physical laws, possible. Unless it can be demonstrated to me that the stresses would rip them apart or that the details I've put into them to prevent damage from micro-meteorites are insufficient or the pages upon pages I've gone over nearly every possible other detail I could think of, these colonies will continue to see use, come what may.
Worse comes to worst, I'll expand Von Braun and the other cities. I have less to lose than you think.

Edited by Lynneth
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You should all be ashamed of yourselves.


As for Space RP being canon or non-canon, I've seen some pretty BS space things from you that affected canon RPs, Triyun. Space's canonity has depended on what[i] you and your allies[/i] have deemed suitable to your needs and or whims in the past. Talking as if Lynneth's been the only one RPing !@#$%^&* in space calls for some donkey-ball sucking on your part as well.

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[quote name='Executive Minister' timestamp='1350267196' post='3041493']
You should all be ashamed of yourselves.


As for Space RP being canon or non-canon, I've seen some pretty BS space things from you that affected canon RPs, Triyun. Space's canonity has depended on what[i] you and your allies[/i] have deemed suitable to your needs and or whims in the past. Talking as if Lynneth's been the only one RPing !@#$%^&* in space calls for some donkey-ball sucking on your part as well.
[/quote]

Name those 'pretty BS things'.

[quote name='iKrolm' timestamp='1350268364' post='3041501']
Option 3 (?): Optional canon: anyone can recognize it, part of it, or none of it at all and wars/weapons in space can't be forced upon anyone.
[/quote]

That's always been the case if something wasn't canon.

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[quote name='Lynneth' timestamp='1350263270' post='3041472']
With 'cluster $%&@' I'm talking about people who have no idea what they're doing trying to get stuff into space. I know very much what I'm doing, and your claims that my nation would in any major way be impacted by space being made canon are baseless. The structures I'm using are stable and easily capable of withstanding the physical stresses upon them. Previously, I've said that I practically 'bankrupted' Sri Lanka to finance the habitats (as much as that's possible in the current RP environmnt), and even Guyana wasn't as 'liquid' as its rulers liked to claim. That right there is your economic argument out fo the window.
As for literature, did they merely talk about colonies as envisioned by the US president currently, with a minor outpost, or did the books try to look at the more 'fantastical' designs? Were the arguments backed up by anything other than "it's not economical", were the physics questioned? Without taking the maths behind these structures into account, those texts are nowhere as accurate as you'd like to think they are. I know the physics behind these things, and while I concede I might have to lower my population in space, I maintain that all of these colonies are, as per all physical laws, possible. Unless it can be demonstrated to me that the stresses would rip them apart or that the details I've put into them to prevent damage from micro-meteorites are insufficient or the pages upon pages I've gone over nearly every possible other detail I could think of, these colonies will continue to see use, come what may.
Worse comes to worst, I'll expand Von Braun and the other cities. I have less to lose than you think.
[/quote]

Economies do exist within the realm of common sense, that is why there are restrictions on every other thing. Economies are what turn raw resources, labor, land/resources, and capital into finished goods. You pick up your ENTIRE government and go to a new place. Guess what bond holders don't accept that, thats not how the bond market works. Your debts follow you if you use the same characters I would assume (nobody would do what you did IRL so there is not precedent to cite). But you never RPed that. Of course additionally you would also have to RP the same government then again asking for financing in Guyana which of course would be unlikely without extremely high interest rates. Then of course you assume they would not pursue you into space while you are fragile. So yeah no, I'm calling bull !@#$. We do have economics within common sense, its the same argument for saying that you can't spam 10000 ICBMs, you may have the tech to build an ICBM but 10000 requires just too many damn resources and guess what its a $%&@ ton less resources to build 10000 ICBMs than to build your nation.

In regards to the point of the physics. Yeah actually a lot of these colonies would be questionable of being able to do without strip mining the Earth of natural resources, so yes I'd say that it is questionable. You act as if economics and physics are unrelated when actually they are quite integral. Physics states that matter/energy can neither be created or destroyed, economics states that there is no such thing as a free lunch. That actually has huge integrated application for talking about the feasibility of any sort of space. It means that the Earth only has so much resources to be devoted to the colonization of space, it cannot produce more energy, it cannot produce more specialized metals and whatever else you make. That amount is fixed. So then the question becomes what can we do with what we have. You can either spend it on stuff like feeding the population, education, etc, or you can spend huge amounts of money to try and colonize space. Now the latter is an option, but the expense is actually humongous. Suddenly you're cutting education, you're cutting food programs, you're cutting health care, this diminishes the innovativeness and productivity of your work force. You don't pay international creditors, suddenly you're dealing with hyper inflation.

Don't act like these are silly costs. Do not act like you're beyond this, you're not. You're up in arms over the realism of a non-canon puny post, claiming that such a thing should never be allowed because we're not RPing out everything and taking x, y, and z into account when you're practically taking a elephant sized !@#$ on the rules of common sense in order to justify you're hard on for space. So no, take your head out of your ass and try again, either we play by some laws of common sense, or we just disregard everything, no resource cost and all the implications that has. Either way this both insulting and stupid on your part.

[quote name='Executive Minister' timestamp='1350267196' post='3041493']
You should all be ashamed of yourselves.


As for Space RP being canon or non-canon, I've seen some pretty BS space things from you that affected canon RPs, Triyun. Space's canonity has depended on what[i] you and your allies[/i] have deemed suitable to your needs and or whims in the past. Talking as if Lynneth's been the only one RPing !@#$%^&* in space calls for some donkey-ball sucking on your part as well.
[/quote]

List please. And if its ASAT please include exactly how availing myself of the same tools that were available to CN RPers when I first got here and have been used in most major wars since is suddenly different.

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I'll just state simply: Stop putting in economy when convenient to booster one's argument when the general convention is "economy do not exist, so stop trying to put realism into CNRP". It would be nice if everyone RPs within common sense, but there is next to none in CNRP in the first place, which leads to the general hypermilitarization which only one nation in RL history, DPRK, has been able to top. When we start from that, are you sure you or anyone else have any right to go about economies?

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[quote name='Kankou' timestamp='1350323558' post='3041626']
I'll just state simply: Stop putting in economy when convenient to booster one's argument when the general convention is "economy do not exist, so stop trying to put realism into CNRP". It would be nice if everyone RPs within common sense, but there is next to none in CNRP in the first place, which leads to the general hypermilitarization which only one nation in RL history, DPRK, has been able to top. When we start from that, are you sure you or anyone else have any right to go about economies?
[/quote]

Are you too dense to read what Triyun just wrote on that?

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I did read it, and I can basically apply the same thing to just about every people, but mostly against no other than Triyun, Malatose, you, and myself. All of us have achieved extreme militarization that exceeds anything the Soviet Union had to go through during the Cold War, to the point all of us should be in hyperinflation or have next to no social benefits for our citizens. All of us, but particularly Triyun and you, have conducted so many wars that we should be drowning in debt far above what RL US, EU, or USSR can withstand. How many new tanks have we built, far above the numbers of any construction during peacetime at the expense of our citizens? How much futuristic technology which would cost millions for each troop have we given out? How much money have we used in R&D, where there is quite a bit of waste and goes into the hundreds of billions with our scales?

Simply put, we already exceed any scale of decent economy with our regular militaries. Is any of us in the position to use the notion of economy to argue that something should be restricted, especially in a culture where economy is ignored as being too complex to understand? The only person who comes close to doing things by their realistic economic limitations, in my belief, is TheShammySocialist.

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Disclaimer: I use bold to emphasize words as I would in normal speech. Hence the liberal use. /Disclaimer

[quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1350313674' post='3041600']
Economies do exist within the realm of common sense, that is why there are restrictions on every other thing. Economies are what turn raw resources, labor, land/resources, and capital into finished goods. You pick up your ENTIRE government and go to a new place. Guess what bond holders don't accept that, thats not how the bond market works. Your debts follow you if you use the same characters I would assume (nobody would do what you did IRL so there is not precedent to cite). But you never RPed that. Of course additionally you would also have to RP the same government then again asking for financing in Guyana which of course would be unlikely without extremely high interest rates. Then of course you assume they would not pursue you into space while you are fragile. So yeah no, I'm calling bull !@#$. We do have economics within common sense, its the same argument for saying that you can't spam 10000 ICBMs, you may have the tech to build an ICBM but 10000 requires just too many damn resources and guess what its a $%&@ ton less resources to build 10000 ICBMs than to build your nation.[/quote] You're assuming that my nation took up massive debts to finance the colonies, which wasn't the case. They ran out of money. If I remember right, I had relatively minimal military expenses, that's already trillions saved if we take, say, the US allotment of the budget.

[quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1350313674' post='3041600']In regards to the point of the physics. Yeah actually a lot of these colonies would be questionable of being able to do without strip mining the Earth of natural resources, so yes I'd say that it is questionable. You act as if economics and physics are unrelated when actually they are quite integral. Physics states that matter/energy can neither be created or destroyed, economics states that there is no such thing as a free lunch. That actually has huge integrated application for talking about the feasibility of any sort of space. It means that the Earth only has so much resources to be devoted to the colonization of space, it cannot produce more energy, it cannot produce more specialized metals and whatever else you make. That amount is fixed. So then the question becomes what can we do with what we have. You can either spend it on stuff like feeding the population, education, etc, or you can spend huge amounts of money to try and colonize space. Now the latter is an option, but the expense is actually humongous. Suddenly you're cutting education, you're cutting food programs, you're cutting health care, this diminishes the innovativeness and productivity of your work force. You don't pay international creditors, suddenly you're dealing with hyper inflation. [/quote]
Physics are a strange thing. Did you know that the mass of Earth's crust alone is on the order of 1.913x10[sup]22[/sup] kg? Now, let me dig up my calculations here. Actually, no, let's do this live.
Small cylinder: 900*9,000*Pi = 25,446,900 cubic meters, that's the volume of the entire cylinder. Considering that approximately... 90% of that is empty space, we're left with a tenth of that. 2,544,690 cubic meters. Let's take iron. That's 7.87 tons/m[sup]3[/sup], making for 20,026,710 metric tons of pure iron. This doesn't take into account far lighter materials such as aluminium or carbon nanofiber/tubes.
Consulting [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_ore"]Wikipedia[/url], [i]"In 2006, China produced 588 million tons of iron ore, with an annual growth of 38%."[/i]
Why, with those 588 million tons, we could build a whole 29.36 of those colonies in a single year! And that's only China! Amazing, isn't it? And I built only 40 of the small cylinder colonies.
Now, the large cylinders are a little different. 32,000 meters long, 6,400 in diameter, we have 3200*32000*pi = 321,699,087 cubic meters. However! Here, very nearly 95% of the cylinder is utter emptiness save for breathable atmosphere (of which Earth has [i]plenty[/i]). We're left with 16,084,954 cubic meters. Using iron, a mass of 126,652,931 metric tons is reached. Considerably larger, but even if we double that number for 10% of the actual volume being filled by pure iron, we have 'only' about 253 million tons of iron. That's a tenth of the world's production, yes. But the large colonies were built over a timespan of 5-10 years with only 2 being built at the same time.
And that up there's only iron, not the many, many other materials that are useful for constructing the colonies. I'd wager that in our war-riddled world, mining operations of all sorts would be considerably larger than IRL to make up for the loss in materiel and production of military goods, wouldn't you agree? This might be an increase as large as 20%.
Oh, by the way. Brazil produced 370 million tonnes of iron ore in 2010. I owned Brazil for quite a while. Many IC-years, even.

You appear to be assuming that those colonies are solid chunks of material. Please adjust this view, for [b]they are not.[/b]
Considering the size, the habitats I made are surprisingly lightweight, even in my opinion. Furthermore, if I invested only, say, 15% of that old Guyanese budget into space...
GDP was: 9,698,708,543,220 Dollars
20% tax (avg) - 1,939,741,708,644
15% investment - 290,961,256,297, that's 290 billion dollars.
More than 16 times of NASA's budget, each and every year. Now, considering I "bankrupted" my nation, let me humour you and disregard the common convention that Kankou mentioned, which is that there is no economy.
Say I spent 50%, neglecting, say... [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:U.S._Federal_Spending_-_FY_2011.png"]Hmmm[/url], how about the defense budget, Social Security and Medicare as seen in that graph? As well as cutting a considerable parts of the other bits.
The total budget is 969,870,854,322, [b]970 billion.[/b]
The price of iron per metric tonne was 144.66 dollars in March 2012 according to [url="http://www.indexmundi.com/commodities/?commodity=iron-ore"]Index Mundi[/url] here.
All colonies together (40 small, 8 large) have a total 'Iron Mass' of 1,814,291,848 metric tons. That's 262,455,458,731.68 or 263 billion dollars. Let's double that to 526 billion.
Oh, look. With only a 15% investment, I can buy [b]ALL[/b] of the material for the colonies in [i]two years[/i]! That of course doesn't factor in manufacturing, assembly and all, but I honestly doubt that would more than triple the price, forcing me to invest 290 million for all of 6 years.
Consider that I RPd the Launch loop in my possession being capable of delivering a kilogram for an average price of 3 bucks or so, so 3,000 per ton, we're looking at 5,442,875,544,000 or 5.4 trillion dollars. Oh wow, that's actually quite a bit.
I'll have to invest for a whole [b]19 years[/b] to pay for that! Giving us a total of [b]25 years[/b] minimum to pay for [i]material, refining, getting it into space and assembly.[/i]
Amazing, isn't it? And last I checked, I spent at least 30 IC-years building those habitats. 10+ months. Minimum.
And that's all from taxes. Without taking any debt. Just spending the money my people make in the normal economy. Fun, ain't it?

Of course, all this applies only and [b]only[/b] if the Community decides to actually implement economy whereas currently, only things regarding the military are restricted by common sense as you mentioned it. Zoot took a month or two to fill the space between the Falklands Islands' islands. Vektor once upon a time rebuilt Berlin in an RL-month and with, I think 2 or 3 posts? There's many more examples of people doing ridiculous things in their nation, but you never cried out when they did that. Why now of all times, against me? Just because my habitats [b]look[/b] more expensive, despite not actually [b]being[/b] all that much more expensive? Do consider that I spent the better part of 2 RL years doing this stuff. I'm working on an entirely different scale here than you seem to be. Or do you think I'd actually consider building one of these colonies in a single post? Do you think I'd build even [b]one[/b] of my spaceships with a single line?
You think wrongly. Please adjust your argument accordingly.

[quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1350313674' post='3041600']Don't act like these are silly costs. Do not act like you're beyond this, you're not. You're up in arms over the realism of a non-canon puny post, claiming that such a thing should never be allowed because we're not RPing out everything and taking x, y, and z into account when you're practically taking a elephant sized !@#$ on the rules of common sense in order to justify you're hard on for space. So no, take your head out of your ass and try again, either we play by some laws of common sense, or we just disregard everything, no resource cost and all the implications that has. Either way this both insulting and stupid on your part.
[/quote]
Tell me where I deposited manure on the rules after reading what I wrote about the monetary 'problems' of building my habitats, which apparently aren't a real big problem at all.

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[quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1350313674' post='3041600']
List please. And if its ASAT please include exactly how availing myself of the same tools that were available to CN RPers when I first got here and have been used in most major wars since is suddenly different.
[/quote]


[quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1346956388' post='3028204']
At the same time, targeted high speed coorbital objects were placed directly into GEO from the space elevator, to engage the EW IR sats which could detect BM launches.
[/quote]

[quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1348084110' post='3031910']
Co-orbital ASATs began slamming into GEO communications satellites and MEO navigation satellites which covered the theatre of battle. The loss of the MEO sats effect of disabling the navigational systems which enabled armies and navies to find their way and manuver, effectively target missiles against targets, use main battle tank guns and artillery at stand off range. The GEO was even more critical as the loss of these forced the enemy if they wished to be able to communication with various submarines across the battle space and disabled the enemy's ability to send encrypted signals on the most secure bandwidth.
[/quote]

You've resorted to using a semi-canon space elevator to deploy co-orbital anti-satellite weapons against totally canon satellites to get around the 'no-space-to-space weapon' rule, even during today's day and age of the relaxation of the rule with all this battle star galactica / lynneth nonsense. You are giving yourself and your allies the benefit of high-speed co-orbital ASAT weapons that are much harder to detect by a defending satellite than regular ASATs the rest of 'unaligned' CNRP have to use.

While the moderator enforced rule of absolutely no space weapons at all was still in play, you resorted to using 'space carriers' that launched anti-satellite jamming drones to attack another players canon space assets in an earlier war.* Utilizing these co-orbital 'drones' you have an extremely hard to hit (from a terrestrial ASAT capability) platform that is not readily defended against, unless the defender utilizes the same illegal co-orbital weapons you employ.

During the no rods from god period, you've copped out with Fractional orbit bombardment ICBMs that dropped kinetic kill warheads on targets.* By limiting your orbit to a fractional capacity, you have not negated the advantage of such an illegal rod from god bombardment system. Yes, your weapon is trackable by regular anti-BM detection systems - until it hits space and coasts to its target for an undetermined amount of time. A target has no luxury of having the ability to track such a weapon as one would normally have with a normal ICBM.

You have a history of using space for your own gains against canon CNRPers during war. You cannot deny this.




*Older war that I remember for your flagrant violations, but cannot recall actual links.

Edited by Executive Minister
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I'll address Lyn at more detail later.

But for EM:

Actually EM you're flat out wrong on all of those. There are zero satellites in existence that can defend against either a direct ascent ASAT or a semi-direct ascent ASAT on any sort of reliable basis. The use of co-orbital is marginally better at best, and anything past LEO is going to be semi co-orbital in the second stage. You can just as well do a regular ASAT with a second stage Missile Strike against a GEO or MEO target, the difference in the real world are actually political restrictions.

Think about this in terms of game theory: I am your adversary, you don't know what I want to do and I don't know what you want to do, but I'm pretty sure in my initial calculation that both of us just want a limited war (thats all we're talking about in the current international relations environment between US-Russia or US-China, everyone else doesn't matter). If I hit a couple of your imagers flying real low that may be ok, they support both sides war fighting mission, yes there is a faux pas about hitting space but other than that. In MEO its a lot of effort and you gotta reduce the nav constellation a whole lot to be of effective because its highly redundant. Mara was a certain type of adversary who let me continuously pound away at it, and that was pretty easy to anticipate based on her patterns of behavior. You notice I didn't pound Cochin or Vektor's stuff the same way. I wouldn't be so arrogant as to assume all adversaries would behave like Mara.

GEO though, thats how you monitor the other guys SLBMs and ICBMs and give commands to your nuclear subs. He starts hitting that, you think you may have to eat a first strike, so you better go make him eat one first because whoever gets their second is going to hurt a lot more. Thats why we don't practice shooting GEO IRL, both sides don't want that uncertainty that the other side feels paralyzed and is going to be compelled into a 'use 'em or lose 'em' dilemma.

In regards to me doing a jamming, thats simply orbital mechanics. First of all jamming is not a direct kinetic attack. What I did was put my own satellites into orbit with orbits slightly elliptical to the ones the adversary had, so the defacto effect was a mini-orbit around it, then I broadcasted noise onto the dish. I did not actually use a space to space kinetic weapon. Jamming a dish with noise I don't think is a issue.

In regards to the rod bundles they went through space, but so do ICBMs at the very edge of space. So I don't see what your argument here is, unless your argument is that somehow the fact that my global geographic positioning of allied sat track system gives me an advantage others are denied, but thats IC more than anything. I don't quite see how you could argue that you cannot track a rod bundle if you have access to the same global space track that the US has and it was stated at the time, as well as numerous times that you've brought this up (which you each time conspicuously choose to ignore), that one can RP defenses against it.

Further all the actual kinetic weapons originate in terrestrial orbit. The best thing you can argue is that I sometime use means other than a simple heavy lift booster to get them into orbit, but I don't preposition any sort of kinetic weapon in space thats canon or can be used to achieve canonical effect. In none of these though can you make an argument that I've at all purposefully ignored the rule. Nor could you ever make these equivalent to a permanent stationing of military forces in space because all kinetic strikes have Earth as their point of origin and are utilized within one contiguous movement.

Edited by Triyun
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