Captain Enema Posted October 18, 2012 Report Share Posted October 18, 2012 Why can't they be big boys and work it out? Why the heck does it have to affect the rest of us? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markus Wilding Posted October 18, 2012 Report Share Posted October 18, 2012 I'm really failing to see why space should become canon, especially when so few people are doing things like building colonies and that jazz. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Centurius Posted October 18, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 18, 2012 [quote name='Kankou' timestamp='1350540452' post='3042443'] Let's look back at Lynneth's original complaint: The GM's basic response: Basically, it seems Lynneth wants space RP to be canon to allow the GMs to have jurisdiction over Space RPs. The original complaint basically amounts to "Triyun has broken the IC/OOC barrier and also did a bad job of RPing". At this point, I'm not sure what we should be doing, except maybe giving the GMs more power over the optionally canon world of Space RP, and leave the rest of the stuff alone? [/quote] Then it would be made canon, like tbm already pointed out. If Lynneth doesn't like it he's free to not recognize it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarah Tintagyl Posted October 18, 2012 Report Share Posted October 18, 2012 My points: No discussion was done about Space becoming Canon, thus we have this idea floating out in the middle of nowhere, with no regulation, no idea on how to implement it, no idea on how to stop the eventual abuse of such a system. From the beginning I still think that this entire issue comes out of a moot point. Lyn is in Botha mode, existing in an area which I personally, and I think a lot of people will agree with me, is not fully feesable from a modern perspective. It doesn't really matter how many space journals are out there or resources, because people are all going to play this different and I can bet, not to Lyn's liking. There were no problems until someone reacted to Lyn's actions, which in all truth, technically don't have to exist anyways. In this I really agree with TBM, people like Lyn and Mara like space they can have fun in space, but when we start regulating space and people start coming up with schemes in space, I think it will get ruined. (We have enough trouble on Earth) Personally, I don't think this should be implemented at all and until those who would like to see it implemented come forward with realistic regulation, I would say that this poll is moot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PresidentDavid Posted October 18, 2012 Report Share Posted October 18, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Sarah Tintagyl' timestamp='1350567599' post='3042482'] My points: No discussion was done about Space becoming Canon, thus we have this idea floating out in the middle of nowhere, with no regulation, no idea on how to implement it, no idea on how to stop the eventual abuse of such a system. From the beginning I still think that this entire issue comes out of a moot point. Lyn is in Botha mode, existing in an area which I personally, and I think a lot of people will agree with me, is not fully feesable from a modern perspective. It doesn't really matter how many space journals are out there or resources, because people are all going to play this different and I can bet, not to Lyn's liking. There were no problems until someone reacted to Lyn's actions, which in all truth, technically don't have to exist anyways. In this I really agree with TBM, people like Lyn and Mara like space they can have fun in space, but when we start regulating space and people start coming up with schemes in space, I think it will get ruined. (We have enough trouble on Earth) Personally, I don't think this should be implemented at all and until those who would like to see it implemented come forward with realistic regulation, I would say that this poll is moot. [/quote] Unfortunately as a GM, you do not hold Veto power. Also I thought I remember you supporting a Space Roleplay a while back? And finally, I don't think the abuse will be any worse then the abuse on Earth especially since weapons wont be allowed. All that's left for Lyn (and others) to do in space is actually have fun and RP and avoid all the warhawks that make it their goal to destroy creativity. I am in full support of this idea for that very reason - freedom will reign in the stars. Edited October 18, 2012 by PresidentDavid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markus Wilding Posted October 18, 2012 Report Share Posted October 18, 2012 [quote name='PresidentDavid' timestamp='1350568162' post='3042489'] Unfortunately as a GM, you do not hold Veto power. Also I thought I remember you supporting a Space Roleplay a while back? And finally, I don't think the abuse will be any worse then the abuse on Earth especially since weapons wont be allowed. All that's left for Lyn (and others) to do in space is actually have fun and RP and avoid all the warhawks that make it their goal to destroy creativity. I am in full support of this idea for that very reason - freedom will reign in the stars. [/quote] Actually, I'm fairly certain she does. GM's are supposed to support and roll back rules and guidelines that help the community, not goofy ones like this. And if you wanna play in the stars, be my guest. Nobody is stopping you from doing some non-canon space RPs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PresidentDavid Posted October 18, 2012 Report Share Posted October 18, 2012 [quote name='Markus Wilding' timestamp='1350568467' post='3042491'] Actually, I'm fairly certain she does. GM's are supposed to support and roll back rules and guidelines that help the community, not goofy ones like this. And if you wanna play in the stars, be my guest. Nobody is stopping you from doing some non-canon space RPs. [/quote] Actually CNRP functions as a direct democracy with the sovereignty of the entire system directly in the hands of the people. If a majority of us wanted to, we could make a rule that RPing a nation bigger then twenty-square feet is illegal... We could make a rule getting rid of the GMs... The only job of the GMs are to enforce the rules in place. They hold no executive power, and thus can not Veto because they have never been given the power to Veto by the community. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markus Wilding Posted October 18, 2012 Report Share Posted October 18, 2012 I'm.....really not going to get into an argument with you about this. I'll just say I support Sarah's position on this matter and leave it at that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PresidentDavid Posted October 18, 2012 Report Share Posted October 18, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Markus Wilding' timestamp='1350569173' post='3042494'] I'm.....really not going to get into an argument with you about this. I'll just say I support Sarah's position on this matter and leave it at that. [/quote] You can't argue it because you know it's true. Edited October 18, 2012 by PresidentDavid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markus Wilding Posted October 18, 2012 Report Share Posted October 18, 2012 [quote name='PresidentDavid' timestamp='1350569478' post='3042496'] You can't argue it because you know it's true. [/quote] I'm not going to argue because it's stupid to argue at this point and not the subject of this topic, so kindly stop trying to provoke me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarah Tintagyl Posted October 18, 2012 Report Share Posted October 18, 2012 [quote] And finally, I don't think the abuse will be any worse then the abuse on Earth especially since weapons wont be allowed. All that's left for Lyn (and others) to do in space is actually have fun and RP and avoid all the warhawks that make it their goal to destroy creativity. I am in full support of this idea for that very reason - freedom will reign in the stars. [/quote] So we've come to what I really beleive to be the crux of the problem. In the back of my mind, I feel that it is this single reason that caused all these problems to begin with, the desire to completely isolate oneself from the potential for war. Firstly, I really don't believe that anyone in this game is out to destroy creativity, but what is so funny, is that in regulating space, the same freedom that you guys talk about will eventually be argued because these same people will be 'forced' to interact. If you want 'freedom' to reign in the stars, as you said, my advice would be to keep it completely unregulated and so that it is precisely in the hands of the RPers telling a particular story instead of in the hands of the community. As to your other comments, PD, yes I did support a space roleplay awhile back which would involve aliens and other species. However, it was defeated for the same reason this is being argued, I presented no tangible way of implementing a new RP to go along with the canon. I've said to Lyn before that if he wanted, he could easily make a Space RP that he could take charge of and regulate himself to his likes and so forth. As to veto power, you're right, I don't have veto power, but having heard various statements from people regarding their ideas for Space RP; I can tell you that it's not going to work out the way you think it is. You want to keep your 'freedom', don't regulate it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evangeline Anovilis Posted October 18, 2012 Report Share Posted October 18, 2012 [quote name='Markus Wilding' timestamp='1350568467' post='3042491'] Actually, I'm fairly certain she does. GM's are supposed to support and roll back rules and guidelines that help the community, not goofy ones like this. [/quote] The GMs are a body of jurisdiction, they are to decide whether or not a rule was violated or not, they are not supposed to decide whether a rule is to be implemented or not. That would be a function of the legislation, which is, the community that votes on these things. Thus, I'm pretty sure, GMs have [b]no [/b]veto on such votes, regardless of how "goofy" or "nonsensical" the rule is, as long as the majority approves of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Centurius Posted October 18, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 18, 2012 [quote name='PresidentDavid' timestamp='1350568162' post='3042489'] Unfortunately as a GM, you do not hold Veto power. Also I thought I remember you supporting a Space Roleplay a while back? And finally, I don't think the abuse will be any worse then the abuse on Earth especially since weapons wont be allowed. All that's left for Lyn (and others) to do in space is actually have fun and RP and avoid all the warhawks that make it their goal to destroy creativity. I am in full support of this idea for that very reason - freedom will reign in the stars. [/quote] Unfortunately for your arguments and the ones that followed there was a tie as Horo's vote was disqualified due to not having a nation. As such by the direct democracy cnrp is the rule didn't pass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PresidentDavid Posted October 18, 2012 Report Share Posted October 18, 2012 [quote name='Sarah Tintagyl' timestamp='1350575736' post='3042530'] So we've come to what I really beleive to be the crux of the problem. In the back of my mind, I feel that it is this single reason that caused all these problems to begin with, the desire to completely isolate oneself from the potential for war. Firstly, I really don't believe that anyone in this game is out to destroy creativity, but what is so funny, is that in regulating space, the same freedom that you guys talk about will eventually be argued because these same people will be 'forced' to interact. If you want 'freedom' to reign in the stars, as you said, my advice would be to keep it completely unregulated and so that it is precisely in the hands of the RPers telling a particular story instead of in the hands of the community. As to your other comments, PD, yes I did support a space roleplay awhile back which would involve aliens and other species. However, it was defeated for the same reason this is being argued, I presented no tangible way of implementing a new RP to go along with the canon. I've said to Lyn before that if he wanted, he could easily make a Space RP that he could take charge of and regulate himself to his likes and so forth. As to veto power, you're right, I don't have veto power, but having heard various statements from people regarding their ideas for Space RP; I can tell you that it's not going to work out the way you think it is. You want to keep your 'freedom', don't regulate it. [/quote] If the RP is not cannon, then the freedom supposedly associated with it is not existent along with the legitimacy of the RP itself. If you want people to freely and openly express themselves/communicate with others then the only logical option is to stop forced-warfare because it deters individuals without power from being too noticeable (creative), big, expressive, or honest with the general community because of the fear of foolish, stupid, unwarranted, OOCly justified, and rarely ICly justified retaliations with direct and typically unrealistic physical attacks that, in the real world, would be such a waste of money, resources, life, and time that citizens of these supposedly mighty nations would arise and probably feather and tar their own government officials. Some say that's fine because CNRP isn't realistic... Then why be realistic and have forced-warfare? I don't mind ruining the RP of the few who base their joy and RPs off of ruining or dominating the creativity and fun of others while occasionally doing an internal RP and call it fair. I say that the majority of the people who are bring stepped on ought to be able to express and RP without the perpetual crap that we call IC politics. Surely there must have been a time in CNRP where there were flying cars or underwater cities or an odd military base carved into the ice of the North Pole... But no please, let's stick to the basic, standard, and generic RP that we have because most of the people who had that creativity seem to have left before our arrived - or their ability to produce such a quality is either now non-existent Or they have now time to battle the worthless and meaningless math of accomplishing such structures and stories. Should it really matter if Lyn can prove his space colonies (even though he already did)? Why stop others from writing and doing what they want in a canon format just because it might not be achievable by modern day nations? I just don't understand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markus Wilding Posted October 18, 2012 Report Share Posted October 18, 2012 Here's my question to you PD: What actual reason other than "for creativity" is there for making space RP (and possibly the weapons involved in it) canon? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kankou Posted October 18, 2012 Report Share Posted October 18, 2012 I'll just make my position on this clear again: Given that we have not yet specifically allowed people making an effort to make a nation to have a vote, and yet again we made no provisions to automatically extend the deadline in case of the vote. officially the poll was a tie and thus the status quo of space non-canonity stays. I'll propose this for the third time: We should allow those making a serious effort to get a country on the forums (example: Horo) to have a vote, and also we should have it mandatory that in case of ties by the deadline there is an automatic 24 hour extension of the deadline. I think that would ultimately be fair to all people involved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarah Tintagyl Posted October 18, 2012 Report Share Posted October 18, 2012 As to your first point, this was something that can be proposed separately. If there is a large amount of CNRP's population that has reached the point that they cannot bear to be around 'warhawks' and the idea of non-planned or planned warfare, then we should make two universes. One were you can war and the other where you just develop a nation and do news. This is how CNRP was years ago and if people would like to return to that, there isn't an issue. That said, two maps should be made to depict the two worlds. Furthermore, just to say this as to the past of CNRP, Botha Mode, which Lyn is in right now was kind of a shaky thing to begin with and it was proven it doesn't work when Ty bombed him. Non-canon does not mean non-credible, Lyn's RP is fine, fun to read, etc. and just because it's non-canon doesn't mean it can be interesting and enjoyable. But as to the actual creation of canon, it doesn't exist because of the environment he's placed himself in, that he can't be warred traditionally. At least that's how I've taken it, along with others. Additionally, in terms of the past players, I honestly think most of of them would find these arguments humorous because there was no such thing as pre-planning, or nuclear safety nets, or anything like that. You were on the map, you played IC politics, you got warred, and you dealt with it. Personally, I don't think Lyn has a problem with being non-canon and this entire ordeal is coming because Triyun moved onto the moon in a vague post. The thing is, Lyn technically doesn't even have to recognize Triyun and so he can have all this freedom and such without being canon. If you think that realistic restrictions are curtailing creativity, then ask for rules to be repealed, but if you do that, I think we should start with wars can happen instantly and no nation is safe from nuclear devistation. I don't have a problem if you want to hermit yourself, but if you say "I can't be attacked." Then you shouldn't be on the map. As to Kankou's proposal about Horo, I have no problems with this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triyun Posted October 18, 2012 Report Share Posted October 18, 2012 I'd add a corrollary to Kankou's proposal you have to actually post IC more than once every 2-3 weeks over a sustained period of time (you can lapse occasionally) for your vote to count. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheShammySocialist Posted October 18, 2012 Report Share Posted October 18, 2012 [quote name='Sarah Tintagyl' timestamp='1350585974' post='3042583'] As to Kankou's proposal about Horo, I have no problems with this. [/quote] I concur with my other fellow GM's on this matter, so as to set precedence on any future misunderstandings that could arise, if an honest effort has been made to roleplay a nation, and they are in a "transitional" state, I believe their votes should count. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yawoo Posted October 19, 2012 Report Share Posted October 19, 2012 Not to get too picky, but I don't believe you GMs can set a precedent like that any longer, it will need a community vote. As to the subject matter, I oppose it. I have, more than once, not allowed people to roll into territory I controlled despite their request (that being said, I have also approved like 95% of requests). Requesting something is not the same thing as possessing something and it really could make a poll invalid if someone wants to be a @#$# and have all their buddies request a single pixel (or real territory) from someone just to have a vote in a controversial poll (pre-planning, anyone?). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kankou Posted October 19, 2012 Report Share Posted October 19, 2012 I was just making a suggestion, Herr Yawoo. Furthermore, I did say serious effort, as in something that will be going somewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yawoo Posted October 19, 2012 Report Share Posted October 19, 2012 Ah, my comment was more in response to Shammy's post saying it was a precedent, Frau Kankou. The problem with the term "serious effort" is it is very ambigious, and can be very easily argued that because of X and Y that Z was a serious effort and thus should then count. I really don't see the problem with keeping it as only people with nations can vote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kankou Posted October 19, 2012 Report Share Posted October 19, 2012 Well, a thing about that particular situation is sometimes even after someone had promised to give land to someone else, but was too lazy to get through the RPs, are you to consider that person as having a nation? What of joke nations, when Xion got a one-!@#$%* for the lulz but was allowed to vote? Frankly, I would like something to be added saying "voting rights are given to those who have been promised land and has started the process of claiming the land" or something to that effect. But of course we would need to put that up for a vote. Also, more importantly..... Is it too much to ask of poll makers to just add in a note polls will be extended 24 hours in cases of ties? That would save us a bit of trouble over all the "tie" arguments we had in the past three instances of ties. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yawoo Posted October 19, 2012 Report Share Posted October 19, 2012 If enough people are in favor of allowing those without nations the ability to vote, then at the very least I'd want whoever promised the land to the newcomer to post in the polling thread confirming the transfer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Enema Posted October 19, 2012 Report Share Posted October 19, 2012 Xion was a legit nation of one, I don't see what the problem here is? I personally found the whole thing hilarious, and if you are going to whine about Xion, be sure to gripe about Sealand as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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