The GM's Court

[Lynneth]

[quote name='Centurius' timestamp='1331147950' post='2935108']
As for the space debris clean-up, the kind of numbers you claimed in that post can't be cleaned up in a reasonable timeframe. Even with what the Lunar Republic can do so claiming they could is by itself a godmod already.
[/quote]
Might I note that by now I have dozens of vessels operating in near earth orbit capable of these clean up operations? Might I also note that I did not specify how long the actual cleanup would take, aside from redirecting small debris into decaying orbits?
Might I also note nobody complained when I started cleaning up [b]all[/b] debris [i]ever[/i] made by mankind? That was when I was still Ceylon, I believe, and I'll gladly find you the appropriate post.
You're underestimating just how much I have in space by now.


Fake edit: Everything else is imo just nitpicking, as far as I've seen until now. These things can be brought up by the GMs, talked out by the participants, and thus fixed. There was absolutely no need for a wipe, as far as I'm concerned right now.

Edited March 7, 2012 by Lynneth

[Evangeline Anovilis]

Well, in regards to the satellites, I don't see how far Kankou can really do something there. After all, if one fired at her missiles, she can either let them get destroyed, which does create debris as a matter of fact, or she can ignore it, which is ignoring to take casualties, an act that was frowned on already earlier. I think the closedness of the war makes it more logical for others to ignore the debris, as was done in the past (even if people didn't mention the debris). Else, you could as well argue why people are able to let their ships sink, despite there surely being fuel or ammunition inside them, possibly causing problems. Or the fallout from a nuke, that normally would not stay within predefined borders.

[Kankou]

[quote name='Centurius' timestamp='1331147950' post='2935108']You'll note that I also outlined violations from Vektor and if it was a ruling against only you the consequences would have been quite different. A complete wipe is the measure taking when both sides are guilty.[/quote]
Both sides aren't guilty. You're basically forcing guilt upon the other side to make the wipe justified, as follows:

[quote name='Centurius' timestamp='1331147950' post='2935108']ICBMs are not covered by the SDI rule, realistic shootdown rates based on real life possibilities apply. You'll note in real life they're still quite bad at shooting down ICBMs and have nowhere near such percentages.[/quote]
Triyun siad he was going to do the SDI rollings, based on the logic that ICBM = IG CM. However, if you want to use RL situations, let's look at the THAAD test results:

Success: 14
Failure: 6
Aborted: 4


Failure reasons:

- Failed to hit a test target due to software errors in the missile's fuel system.
- Failed to hit a test target due to mechanical problems with the kill vehicle's booster separation.
- Failed to hit a test target due to a malfunction in the targeting system.
- Failed to hit a test target due to a contamination in the electrical system.
- Failed to hit a test target due to an electrical short circuit in the booster system.
- Failed to hit a test target due to multiple failures including guidance system.


Assuming we calculate using only success and failures, we have a 70% success rate. Of course, the US had the advantage of having various tracking systems all across the Pacific, but even when we take that into consideration, we still have a shoot down rate similar to the SDI wonder. Furthermore, just how many of the failure reasons would be applied to the perfect world of CNRP where there is no mechanical failures? We have 100% ICBM firing rates when it's know such missiles fire only 85% of the time.


I think RL gives me a bigger advantage than CN SDIs.



[quote name='Centurius' timestamp='1331147950' post='2935108']I've also seen Voodoo use numbers on IRC that do allow the ICBMs to reach Grand Papua.[/quote]
I don't question ICBMs reaching Grand Papua. I was questioning all the firing to the Valhallas.

[quote name='Centurius' timestamp='1331147950' post='2935108']As for the space debris clean-up, the kind of numbers you claimed in that post can't be cleaned up in a reasonable timeframe. Even with what the Lunar Republic can do so claiming they could is by itself a godmod already.[/quote]
Sorry, but that logic just doesn't stand. Let's see what Malatose wrote:

[quote name='Malatose' timestamp='1330131633' post='2927785']
After two hours, one last and final strike was launched. ten intercontinental ballistic missiles, equipped with fifty kinectic kill vehicles each, were launched. As the missiles entered space, they unleashed their deadly payloads, which would ravage and destroy Grand Papua satellites sationed over Germany.[/quote]
Without bothering to go into whether fifty (that's 50) kinetic kill vehicles should be allowed on a single ICBM, killing a single satellite the size of the KH-11 Kennan would by itself spread enough debris to shut down half of Eastern Europe. Add in the 500 vehicles flying around, and who knows what chaos they might create?

Basically, I'm dealing with a difficult situation, and trying to minimize the damages to allow the BS logic of no nations being in war can be affected by the war to uphold. What you're basically doing is accusing the cleanup person for dirtying things, which by itself pretty much tells how flimsy (if it can be considered to exist) the "evidence" is.



[quote name='Centurius' timestamp='1331148380' post='2935111']
Quite simple really, if you let the war pass you establish a precedent for future scenarios in which case it becomes a lot harder to rule. Every time the line gets pushed a bit, eventually it will be pushed beyond repair and that is one thing we want to avoid.
[/quote]
Only one side pushed the line, and that side happens to be someone who godmods all the time yet was never brought up as an issue until that side was being humiliated with the foolish moves being made. Exactly how is this creating a precedent, when one side doesn't allow the godmoding to interfere with the RP as a whole by basically crushing the opposition using perfectly realistic, feasible actions?

Edited March 7, 2012 by Kankou

[Generalissimo]

If the issue with the ‘Case Yellow’ role-play is unrealistic losses – that could be redressed without eliminating the thread.
Striking a thread for unrealistic losses is unprecedented.
This particular setback could have been easily solved with GM mandated losses – it’s been done before!

[Kankou]

I wish to propose the following:


- All weapons which are not based on RL developed/deployed weapons or proposed upgrades of such weapons need to have the development RPed and the specification of such weapon made public in the development RP or a factbook.

- All challenges against the physical possibility (not military capability) of the weapon need to be answered, otherwise such weapons or its implied capacities shall not be recognized.

- All weapons RPed shall be as it is RPed. There is no replacing with other material or specification during a RP unless the important parties to the RP agree.

Edited March 15, 2012 by Kankou

[Captain Enema]

NO!

Just saying this on general principle that I always say no to Kankou's proposals.

[Subtleknifewielder]

Lol, TBM.

It does make sense, however, and regardless of the source, is definitely worth consideration. I mean, we don't want people pulling futuristic weapons capabilities seemingly out of thin air.

[iKrolm]

I do not understand what the second two rules do? Say participant Adam doesn't like opponent Bob's technology, under the status quo Adam posts, PMs, or asks about it. If Adam isn't satisfied, he doesn't recognize it unless a GM orders him to. Same with changing technology on the spot: if Adam doesn't like Bob's changes, he sends PMs/starts threads/etc. until its resolved, wiped or forgotten. How would codifying it change anything?

[Kankou]

Because it's a constant habit of some individuals to just ignore inquiries into physically impossible weapons, which the GMs tend to not bother with even when asked. Codifying it forces the people to come to the table, while relieving the GMs of the headache of constantly having to issue orders for people to answer something. Besides, the precedent of GMs wiping a war for the impossibility of people to come to any agreement, because one side was adamant in getting away with impossible or godmod RPs, doesn't help matters.

[Evangeline Anovilis]

I do see the reason behind such a rule. I think there can be some leeway in that things that have proved to work, but are not completely refined to the point they are yet applicable (railguns, ETC, the use of materials that are existent but not ready for mass production, miniaturisation on a reasonable rate), that these can work, but I don't think we should be able to get away with "Well, by 2032 they surely will have found a fuel more efficient than what we have today, so my bombers have 2000 km more range." Such argumentation is neither good RP, nor do I want to reread this in 20 years and think "No, we somehow still run on kerosene. Sadly he got to bomb me though." Ok, I will not look back in 20 years, as I then hopefully have other things to do, but I guess you get the point.

3. I think should be rephrased. You cannot magically replace it, unless all involved parties agree. I have not seen a war that was long enough, but if for example the first tank offensive shows that my MBT has a cannon that is unable to penetrate the enemy's armor on reasonable range, I do think it would be logical that I take back part of my armored divisions to be refitted and ready again after a few months. I mean, if I look at WWII, the war began with Pzkpfw II and Pzkpfw III and ended with Pzkpfw IV and Pzkpfw V on the German side. By the end of the war, the standards of tanks had shifted dramatically and while the T-34 was by the end of the war a medium tank, able to defeat the Tiger at Kursk mainly with superior numbers, it would be by all means a heavy tank in 1939. I miss these components a bit in warfare.

Just like I miss mobilisation, wounded and logistics. The only countries with over a million soldiers are the US, Russia and DPRK, all three having obtained those through a crazy military build-up that leaves the US with bills that leads to financial problems, Russia's stuff ain't working half of the time, due to maintainance issues and DPRK is poor because the military is all they spend their money on, as well as PRC and India, with over a billion inhabitants each, which makes such peace time forces much more reasonable.

Not to mention that I dislike the definition of technology. If one has 2012 technology, they can use everything invented by 2012. I could use F-22s escorting B-2s carrying FOABs. Even worse if I'd go back in time. If I had 1945 tech, I could use Me-262s, starting from aircraft carriers as the Soviet Union. Thankfully at least there are no jet bombers of Germany able to carry the over 4 ton heavy nuclear bombs of the US. What is it that I criticise here? It is that neither of these countries had all of the stuff at once in 1945. They all were at the frontiers of science. All three had their own scientific breakthroughs. But none of the three had all things at the same time. While the USSR had better tanks than the US, they sucked at building capital ships and while the US had nukes, they were not able to build a V-2 or a jet aircraft that was as good as the German ones. And Germany got not even close to developing a functional nuke. And today, the US may have a lead in many fields, but still, at times the Russians got some stuff that was just better. The PAK-FA comes over 20 years after the F-22, however, the Russian expertise in the field of thermobaric bombs is not seen on an equal level in the West. WWII is a better example, due to the US leading in so many aspects nowadays, but I think 2012 tech =|= 2012 tech. It is one reason why my ships use Asters and Exocets, my aircraft use Meteors and IRIS-T and BGL bombs, because I find it ridiculous to see a ship using Tomahawks, Rolling Airframe missiles and BrahMos and aircraft using Meteors, Sidewinders and Kh-55s. Sadly it would be a pain for us though to work the techscale over to reflect this.

Edited March 16, 2012 by Evangeline Anovilis

[Evangeline Anovilis]

And now I make a double-post, because I don't want to modify the other one. (I edited a spelling error). I think the post above is better left standing as it is.

I just wanted to add that this post should not be seen as a proposal to change the system in the manner of Kankous post. More, it is a sign of my frustration of the monolinear understanding of science in CNRP and me addressing the issue, because I have the feeling not all may have understood this. I know it may be unpractical for CNRP to make tech reflect the true nature of science more, but I did not feel like letting it go completely uncommented. It is something you may ponder on in your free time, but please do not forget that RL science ain't working like in CNRP. and I did not even include the non-natural sciences (natural sciences here: Mathematics, Physics, Chemistry, Biology, Informatics, derivates). I mean, just alone on how society works and on human psychology there are so many theories...

[Captain Enema]

There comes a point when people get so ridiculous it no longer is interesting. I sit in my chair staring at my computer screen asking myself, "Why do I bother with this?" In the end I'm left with the conclusion that either I have nothing better to do or I just like hanging around to see what will happen next.

I now know what will happen next in 98.8 percent of the cases. Someone will complain about the GMs, rules will be proposed, and a 5 to 10 page thread of arguing will follow.

Yeah, seriously.... you guy suck.

Go rp more.

[Evangeline Anovilis]

Well, if people set the techscale to go into the future, it is bound to happen that things will be discussed. And I see discussion as a vital aspect of a democratic pluralistic order. The possibility to discuss things and to work things over, the possibility to find compromises and rulings. To discuss said rulings, to, if necessary, overturn rulings. I do not say GMs are necessarily wrong, or that people like Kankou are right, but discussion does not hurt and as the GMs are humans too, they will also inevitably make mistakes at times.

I do not agree with the notion that discussion is retundant and that people should RP more instead. It compares to me to telling the state to work discuss less and work more. 99% of the stuff discussed in parliament is retundant as well, because it is always on the same arguments. However, the alternative is unchallenged rulings, equaling dictatorship. These discussions are done to discuss rules, rules that affect RP, it is in no way reasonable to ask to RP more, when the rules that are what defines if my RP is canon or not cannot be discussed.

[Captain Enema]

And with that, you all still suck.

Go rp more.

[Voodoo Nova]

I see a lot of whining about things that don't need to be whined about. Sumeragi, if you have a problem with Vekt, Triyun, Cent, or anyone else, say it. We know who you are talking about when you say "some individuals". You have a proverbial hard-on for Vekt and Triyun. GM's shouldn't need to be at your beck-and-call. GM's shouldn't need to do anything more than ensure disputes between people are solved as amicably and as best as possible for the situation at hand.

If you want to be 100% accurate, start RPing with 100% accuracy. I know what you're going to say. "It'll put me at a disadvantage". !@#$%^&*. If you truly cared about technological accuracy, you would do it yourself 100% of the time. You wouldn't use the system you claim are giving everyone else in CNRP an unfair advantage compared to you.

I'm with TBM on this, you all suck. Go RP.

[Subtleknifewielder]

[quote name='Voodoo Nova' timestamp='1331940297' post='2939074']
I see a lot of whining about things that don't need to be whined about. Sumeragi, if you have a problem with Vekt, Triyun, Cent, or anyone else, say it. We know who you are talking about when you say "some individuals". You have a proverbial hard-on for Vekt and Triyun. GM's shouldn't need to be at your beck-and-call. GM's shouldn't need to do anything more than ensure disputes between people are solved as amicably and as best as possible for the situation at hand.

If you want to be 100% accurate, start RPing with 100% accuracy. I know what you're going to say. "It'll put me at a disadvantage". !@#$%^&*. If you truly cared about technological accuracy, you would do it yourself 100% of the time. You wouldn't use the system you claim are giving everyone else in CNRP an unfair advantage compared to you.

I'm with TBM on this, you all suck. Go RP.
[/quote]
Hey, if it wasn't for whiners, half the rules in place today would not be. Think on that one for a bit.

[Kankou]

I don't know, to me the whining comes at least half because of those who accuse others of whining. I mean, when people have to deal with loltech and are ignored when trying to challenged it, what are people supposed to do? At least half of all IRC fighting involving me happens because of !@#$@#$ idiots who don't know what they're writing about.

In fact, if the GMs are willing to deal with it, I might as well start some nice posts pointing out physical problems with some of the problems that are around. Are people up for that?

[Voodoo Nova]

[quote name='Kankou' timestamp='1331973872' post='2939232']
I don't know, to me the whining comes at least half because of those who accuse others of whining. I mean, when people have to deal with loltech and are ignored when trying to challenged it, what are people supposed to do? At least half of all IRC fighting[b] involving me happens because of !@#$@#$ idiots who don't know what they're writing about.
[/b]
In fact, if the GMs are willing to deal with it, I might as well start some nice posts pointing out physical problems with some of the problems that are around. Are people up for that?
[/quote]

Protip: This is a roleplaying game. Unless you are directly involved in the military/civilian research, you do not truly know the true capabilities of any currently-researched "future technology", only what is speculated and written about in various defense/military research news outlets.


@Subtle: That's my point exactly. People would rather whine than actually talk to the person and resolve their arguments like adults.

Edited March 17, 2012 by Voodoo Nova

[Kankou]

[quote name='Voodoo Nova' timestamp='1331995064' post='2939268']
Protip: This is a roleplaying game. Unless you are directly involved in the military/civilian research, you do not truly know the true capabilities of any currently-researched "future technology", only what is speculated and written about in various defense/military research news outlets. [/quote]
Advice: We're talking about putting 5 kg helmets on troops making it simple to snap necks, stuffing four times as much tracking devices and two engines on a torpedo half the size of the Shkval while having a range three times as long, and nuclear-class kinetic strike missiles which have 1000 times the coverage despite having only 9 times the mass. Is it really hard for you to get it in your mind I'm talking about custom weapons based on physical impossibility, rather than souped up version of say an existing weapon? Or is it that you're turn a blind eye to such weapons?

[quote name='Voodoo Nova' timestamp='1331995064' post='2939268']@Subtle: That's my point exactly. People would rather whine than actually talk to the person and resolve their arguments like adults.[/quote]
Yes, only when both sides act like adults and calmly discuss the issue.

[TheShammySocialist]

[quote name='Kankou' timestamp='1331995821' post='2939271']
Yes, only when both sides act like adults and calmly discuss the issue.
[/quote]

Both sides of this ongoing OOC interpersonal conflict have degenerated into childishness more than once, that is a fact, and no, I am not saying that you are not above self-criticism. Just pointing out a relevant and completely truthful fact.

On that note, I think this argument has degenerated to the point where it needs to move to the OOC thread if it is to continue, as I do not see OOC interplayer conflicts as a relevant discussion topic in this thread. So please, continue there.

Edited March 17, 2012 by TheShammySocialist

[Voodoo Nova]

[quote name='Kankou' timestamp='1331995821' post='2939271']
Advice: We're talking about putting 5 kg helmets on troops making it simple to snap necks, stuffing four times as much tracking devices and two engines on a torpedo half the size of the Shkval while having a range three times as long, and nuclear-class kinetic strike missiles which have 1000 times the coverage despite having only 9 times the mass. Is it really hard for you to get it in your mind I'm talking about custom weapons based on physical impossibility, rather than souped up version of say an existing weapon? Or is it that you're turn a blind eye to such weapons?
[/quote]

Frankly, I stopped caring in 2008 when people like LVN were around.

Edited March 17, 2012 by Voodoo Nova

[Kankou]

When did I ever do that?

[Kevin Kingswell]

Guess I am requesting a spy roll against Cent and Triyun to establish camoflauged hides near to their bases to watch their bases movements? Also yes the print screen below is just for Cent's nation but it is the same odds (10%) for Tri so one roll for Tri and one for Cent. Also I don't mind if Cent or Tri or Shammy does the rolls as I trust their impartial judgement.

[IMG]http://i1072.photobucket.com/albums/w379/Killerkevz6666/cnrpspyroll.png[/IMG]

Edited April 3, 2012 by Kevin Kingswell

[Triyun]

Just FYI, if you fail you have to RP the result of spying on us and being caught with your IDs revealed. You [i]sure[/i] you want to do this?

[Kevin Kingswell]

[quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1333475286' post='2947904']
Just FYI, if you fail you have to RP the result of spying on us and being caught with your IDs revealed. You [i]sure[/i] you want to do this?
[/quote]

Actually if I fail then we will have to see how you both rp detecting my teams. None of my people are actually on or at your base the closest they would be is somewhere nearby where the could watch both bases with binoculars thus why I was confused by having to make spy rolls. All I can see is that if I fail then the camoflague wasn't as effective as my teams thought and that somehow some of your units found them though you would have to RP such.