grahamkeatley Posted March 30, 2011 Report Share Posted March 30, 2011 (edited) [quote name='CBray' timestamp='1301474473' post='2680557'] Won't lie, I'm very disappointed in TOOL, not that this cancellation really matters though...I mean you're linked a lot more through FEAR to Europa than the PIAT Edit: Oh and 'Fantastic' you know Deebo, you know [/quote] As a member of TOOL, I would be more disappointed that we would keep ties to an alliance that no longer show the potential to be friends. PIATs are pointless if kept for being a PIAT forever. It is a stepping stone, and if a relationship stalls on a NAP level, and worsens, then you are left with the option of determining whether you wish to have treaties that have no progression path to something bigger or whether you only wish to treaty with those that you have developed a friendship with. This is not about how closely we are treated with other alliances through friends. The idea that we would keep a treaty simply because we are tied elsewhere would be extremely disappointing. And if the Gov in TOOL deemed this treaty to have stalled or not met its purpose, then its not just prudent but the right thing to do in canceling it. As an ally to TOOL, perhaps consider bringing your disappointment to us instead of airing it in public without discussing the discourse with your ally? GK Edited March 30, 2011 by grahamkeatley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sephiroth Posted March 30, 2011 Report Share Posted March 30, 2011 If the treaty wasn't doing you any good and your relationship wasn't strong enough that you felt it would be upgraded, then this was the right decision. Good luck to TOOL moving forward, and while I don't know Europa very well or the exact reasons for this cancellation, good luck to Europa as well. Hopefully you guys reflect on whatever caused TOOL to cancel on you guys and work harder to not let your treaty partners down in the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varianz Posted March 30, 2011 Report Share Posted March 30, 2011 [quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1301479822' post='2680576'] If the treaty wasn't doing you any good and your relationship wasn't strong enough that you felt it would be upgraded, then this was the right decision. Good luck to TOOL moving forward, and while I don't know Europa very well or the exact reasons for this cancellation, good luck to Europa as well. Hopefully you guys reflect on whatever caused TOOL to cancel on you guys and work harder to not let your treaty partners down in the future. [/quote] Implying that the cancellation is somehow Europa's fault...? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Trail Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 [quote name='Varianz' timestamp='1301505537' post='2680720'] Implying that the cancellation is somehow Europa's fault...? [/quote] Well if you read the thread then yes that seems to be the general idea. (not keeping up relations and all that) I only wish TOOL the best of luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gimlimonkey Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 [quote name='The Trail' timestamp='1301593933' post='2681501'] Well if you read the thread then yes that seems to be the general idea. (not keeping up relations and all that) I only wish TOOL the best of luck [/quote] The fault rarely lies simply with one alliance or another. If you believe TOOL made efforts to keep relations up either, I would have to point out that you are mistaken. The degradation of this relationship can be associated with both sides, though as an eternal friend of Europa, I shall of course take their side in nearly all arguments Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Trail Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 [quote name='Gimlimonkey' timestamp='1301594646' post='2681509'] The fault rarely lies simply with one alliance or another. If you believe TOOL made efforts to keep relations up either, I would have to point out that you are mistaken. The degradation of this relationship can be associated with both sides, though as an eternal friend of Europa, I shall of course take their side in nearly all arguments [/quote] and as an eternal friend to TOOL I shall take their side. If blame is in both parties then I still congratulate TOOL to have the balls to cancel a treaty neither side is inclined to hold or build up on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gimlimonkey Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 [quote name='The Trail' timestamp='1301594982' post='2681512'] and as an eternal friend to TOOL I shall take their side. If blame is in both parties then I still congratulate TOOL to have the balls to cancel a treaty neither side is inclined to hold or build up on. [/quote] Aye, entirely understandable. It is always admirable to stand by your friends in their actions. However, I prefer to take a more realistic view and not assign blame simply out of loyalty. Should I blame someone for an occurrence or action, I prefer to base it upon facts. That being said, I shall restate my original post and wish the best of luck to both alliances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salmia Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 (edited) I do love how neither TOOL or Europa have stated it was due to relations falling apart. TOOL gave Europa our reasons and only Europa needs to know them. There doesn't need to be insults flung about, TOOL wishes no harm to Europa and I dislike seeing friends tear at my other former allies. Europa and TOOL know what happened and quite frankly, unless the rest of you were in the room when it occurred and knew the exact details of Europa/TOOL's relationship (which you don't) then you cannot really comment on who is to blame here, the reasons and etc. With that said, I wish all the best of luck to Europa and would like others to keep a certain amount of civility and decor as well out of respect for Europa. It is not really doing anyone any favors to hurl insults for no reason. Edited March 31, 2011 by Salmia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schattenmann Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 Civility clauses are for sensitive babies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
o-dog Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 [quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1301597970' post='2681535'] Civility clauses are for sensitive babies. [/quote] Ain't that the truth! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judge X Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 OMG! Mia had an empathetic, neutral, and sensible post Schatt and you completely went antagonistic! I mean, come on now, STFU if your going to respect an allies decision to handle their affairs quietly. Both TOOL and Europa made their decision for their reason and it should be respected. Obviously the door is not closed as neither TOOL nor Europa is throwing insults across the announcement. Respect to both TOOL Europa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kongo Jack IV Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 [quote name='Salmia' timestamp='1301596988' post='2681526'] I do love how neither TOOL or Europa have stated it was due to relations falling apart. TOOL gave Europa our reasons and only Europa needs to know them. There doesn't need to be insults flung about, TOOL wishes no harm to Europa and I dislike seeing friends tear at my other former allies. Europa and TOOL know what happened and quite frankly, unless the rest of you were in the room when it occurred and knew the exact details of Europa/TOOL's relationship (which you don't) then you cannot really comment on who is to blame here, the reasons and etc. With that said, I wish all the best of luck to Europa and would like others to keep a certain amount of civility and decor as well out of respect for Europa. It is not really doing anyone any favors to hurl insults for no reason. [/quote] I cant agree with this. Europa was told a broad statement on the cancellation, just the normal "we're just parting ways," however it is what it is. Faults are to blame on both sides, and could have been improved. Specifics about the cancellation will not be release. However, do take mind that the FEAR/Wolfpack members know everything I was told, if not more, so I would probably listen to them. As for the situation at hand, Europa wishes nothing but the best for TOOL on their future endeavors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
o-dog Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 [quote name='grahamkeatley' timestamp='1301479326' post='2680573'] As a member of TOOL, I would be more disappointed that we would keep ties to an alliance that no longer show the potential to be friends. PIATs are pointless if kept for being a PIAT forever. It is a stepping stone, and if a relationship stalls on a NAP level, and worsens, then you are left with the option of determining whether you wish to have treaties that have no progression path to something bigger or whether you only wish to treaty with those that you have developed a friendship with. This is not about how closely we are treated with other alliances through friends. The idea that we would keep a treaty simply because we are tied elsewhere would be extremely disappointing. And if the Gov in TOOL deemed this treaty to have stalled or not met its purpose, then its not just prudent but the right thing to do in canceling it. [/quote] A very reasonable stance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schattenmann Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 [quote name='Judge X' timestamp='1301598584' post='2681541'] OMG! Mia had an empathetic, neutral, and sensible post Schatt and you completely went antagonistic! I mean, come on now, STFU if your going to respect an allies decision to handle their affairs quietly. Both TOOL and Europa made their decision for their reason and it should be respected. Obviously the door is not closed as neither TOOL nor Europa is throwing insults across the announcement. Respect to both TOOL Europa [/quote] I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not so I'll just reply seriously: I was not replying to Mia . . . [quote name='SirWilliam' timestamp='1301274767' post='2678650'] The same can be said of just about all of your responses to or directed at GOONS ([url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=100316&st=20&p=2677659&#entry2677659"]this one[/url] not helping your case much). The public conduct clause of our treaty doesn't apply to you though, does it? [/quote] [quote name='Kongo Jack' timestamp='1301598831' post='2681544'] I cant agree with this. Europa was told a broad statement on the cancellation, just the normal "we're just parting ways," however it is what it is. Faults are to blame on both sides, and could have been improved. Specifics about the cancellation will not be release. However, do take mind that the FEAR/Wolfpack members know everything I was told, if not more, so I would probably listen to them. As for the situation at hand, Europa wishes nothing but the best for TOOL on their future endeavors. [/quote] If you can't see why TOOL would cancel a PIAT for "we're parting ways" while they're at war with your other allies, then maybe you should get out of the politics game. I mean unless we're to believe that Europa has been giving TOOL intelligence this whole time or plans to aid them tomorrow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kongo Jack IV Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 [quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1301599173' post='2681547'] If you can't see why TOOL would cancel a PIAT for "we're parting ways" while they're at war with your other allies, then maybe you should get out of the politics game. I mean unless we're to believe that Europa has been giving TOOL intelligence this whole time or plans to aid them tomorrow. [/quote] TOOL isn't at war with any of our allies. Please try again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salmia Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 [quote name='Kongo Jack' timestamp='1301598831' post='2681544'] I cant agree with this. Europa was told a broad statement on the cancellation, just the normal "we're just parting ways," however it is what it is. Faults are to blame on both sides, and could have been improved. Specifics about the cancellation will not be release. However, do take mind that the FEAR/Wolfpack members know everything I was told, if not more, so I would probably listen to them. As for the situation at hand, Europa wishes nothing but the best for TOOL on their future endeavors. [/quote] I would listen to them? FEAR and Wolfpack are not in our relationship, they may know what you told them but they weren't privvy to every interaction that Europa and TOOL has had. I understand they're your ally and you informed them but they were not in the conversation when the cancellation occurred and they're not you. I never said that blame could not be placed on either one of us but I do dislike seeing insults flung about a cancellation by people who weren't even involved in the main relationship. TOOL still holds respect for Europa and holds no ill will such as seeing remarks thrown about by people who weren't the main parties, regardless of how close they may be, when we are not at odds with each other is what I dislike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schattenmann Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Kongo Jack' timestamp='1301599371' post='2681548'] TOOL isn't at war with any of our allies. Please try again. [/quote] TOOL is in a coalition that is under attack by your allies; Doom house has issued multiple statements that attacks on one of them are attack on all of them. As I said, maybe you should find something you're more talented at than politics if you don't get that. [quote]Section V If either alliance receives information concerning a threat to the other, the receiving alliance will notify the other signatory as soon as possible and provide the relevant information, keeping the source hidden if chosen. Section VI Should either alliance find themselves at war, members are encouraged to provide aid where possible to members of the that signatory, however such action is voluntary. Should Military, Diplomatic, Financial or other forms of Aid be needed by either party they may submit a private request for such aid to the other party. Should the request be denied, a written response should be privately conveyed within 48 hours of the request. [/quote] Has Europa been aiding TOOL? Have you been giving them intel that would help them out? Do you have any intentions of doing so? No? So, what's the big surprise, here? Edited March 31, 2011 by Schattenmann Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
o-dog Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 [quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1301600234' post='2681554'] So, what's the big surprise, here? [/quote] There's no surprise, nor ill feeling on our behalf. What there is is a typical OWF thread. TOOL knew the friendship wasn't going anywhere, we knew the same thing. We parted ways on civil terms. End of story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Keshav IV Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 Sad to see alliances drift apart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kongo Jack IV Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 [quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1301600234' post='2681554'] TOOL is in a coalition that is under attack by your allies; Doom house has issued multiple statements that attacks on one of them are attack on all of them. As I said, maybe you should find something you're more talented at than politics if you don't get that. Has Europa been aiding TOOL? Have you been giving them intel that would help them out? Do you have any intentions of doing so? No? So, what's the big surprise, here? [/quote] [quote name='O-Dog' timestamp='1301600529' post='2681560'] There's no surprise, nor ill feeling on our behalf. What there is is a typical OWF thread. TOOL knew the friendship wasn't going anywhere, we knew the same thing. We parted ways on civil terms. End of story. [/quote] Pretty much this. Schatt, your people skills are horrible. I've never made a big deal about the cancellation to start with. Whether or not "an attack on one is an attack on" I've yet to see any GOONS DoW on TOOL. That is/was my concern. And as for this "coalition" if you remember they attacked this NPO coalition involving our MDP partner Invicta. I've directly stated to Sardonic, NascarFanGA8, and recently TheDakotans, that we would not partake in this war in anyway until Post-War aid was needed. Schatt you know nothing about us or how we handle things, so if you dont know what you're talking about just keep your mouth shut. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schattenmann Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 [quote name='Kongo Jack' timestamp='1301601750' post='2681576'] Pretty much this . . . I've never made a big deal about the cancellation to start with. [/quote] I have not said that you did, replied to your post: [quote name='Kongo Jack' timestamp='1301598831' post='2681544'] I cant agree with this. Europa was told a broad statement on the cancellation, just the normal "we're just parting ways," however it is what it is. [/quote] Which made it clear that you think this was a bad decision, and in which you "cannot agree" with Mia. I don't see why you're so confused, you're only ignoring at least 2 treaties these past 2 months. [quote name='Kongo Jack' timestamp='1301601750' post='2681576'] Schatt, your people skills are horrible.[/quote] [i]Hahaha.[/i] [quote name='Kongo Jack' timestamp='1301601750' post='2681576']Whether or not "an attack on one is an attack on" I've yet to see any GOONS DoW on TOOL. That is/was my concern. And as for this "coalition" if you remember they attacked this NPO coalition involving our MDP partner Invicta. I've directly stated to Sardonic, NascarFanGA8, and recently TheDakotans, that we would not partake in this war in anyway until Post-War aid was needed. Schatt you know nothing about us or how we handle things, so if you dont know what you're talking about just keep your mouth shut. [/quote] Oh, I'm glad you brought that up. What part of mutual defense with Invicta involves Europa sitting on its over-extended ass "not partak[ing] in this war in anyway" while GOONS pounds Invicta and demands $300,000,000 in tribute from them? I know everything I need to know about Europa based on its sloppy foreign policy; I know everything I need to know about you based on your inability to see what the problem here is. So if you think that sending some token aid to Invicta post-war is the same as helping them in battle, you need to just ~keep your mouth shut~ You've got half a dozen treaties on one side of the web and you're ignoring them all based on one treaty on the other, that's all anyone needs to know about Europa and I'll be flabbergasted if there aren't a half dozen cancellations on Europa post-war (hell, tomorrow, even). What else is there to know? Please, enlighten me, I really can't wait to hear this one: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BamaBuc Posted March 31, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 Everyone, please calm down. There's no bad blood over this cancellation, and it's a shame that people who are not members of either alliance have tried to make this into more than what it is. We wish Europa nothing but the best. -Bama Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schattenmann Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 (edited) I've never been more calm. I have been singing the praises of decisions such as TOOL has made here for 3 years. If there is to be any movement or progress, alliances are going to have to get beyond the idea of signing a hundred treaties with every sort of alliance without regard to other treaties or actual ideologies. If your ex-friend Kongo can't handle me asking why he seemed confused about this, well, I can't stop him pulling out the "no u shut up!" Edited March 31, 2011 by Schattenmann Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kongo Jack IV Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 [quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1301602850' post='2681590'] I have not said that you did, replied to your post: Which made it clear that you think this was a bad decision, and in which you "cannot agree" with Mia. I don't see why you're so confused, you're only ignoring at least 2 treaties these past 2 months. [i]Hahaha.[/i] Oh, I'm glad you brought that up. What part of mutual defense with Invicta involves Europa sitting on its over-extended ass "not partak[ing] in this war in anyway" while GOONS pounds Invicta and demands $300,000,000 in tribute from them? I know everything I need to know about Europa based on its sloppy foreign policy; I know everything I need to know about you based on your inability to see what the problem here is. So if you think that sending some token aid to Invicta post-war is the same as helping them in battle, you need to just ~keep your mouth shut~ You've got half a dozen treaties on one side of the web and you're ignoring them all based on one treaty on the other, that's all anyone needs to know about Europa and I'll be flabbergasted if there aren't a half dozen cancellations on Europa post-war (hell, tomorrow, even). What else is there to know? Please, enlighten me, I really can't wait to hear this one: [/quote] Invicta, and several others attacked GOONS. We don't hold a oA with them. Not much I can do there. We've since declared a DoN privately with the people who matter, and all have understood our situation. If you want to run your mouth about it that's fine. It's no wonder you obtain the ever so infamous popularity surrounding you. Enjoy your day Schatt. I'm always available to talk in private if you wish, instead of making absurd claims against us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schattenmann Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Kongo Jack' timestamp='1301603434' post='2681600'] Invicta, and several others attacked GOONS. We don't hold a oA with them. Not much I can do there. We've since declared a DoN privately with the people who matter, and all have understood our situation. If you want to run your mouth about it that's fine. It's no wonder you obtain the ever so infamous popularity surrounding you. Enjoy your day Schatt. I'm always available to talk in private if you wish, instead of making absurd claims against us. [/quote] Ah, so let's use your logic then: Since defending NPO from GOONS's aggressive attack, Invicta has come under aggressive attack from MK--So where's Europa? Oh, there's that non-chaining language keeping you from facing reality. The simple fact of the matter is just as I've said: Europa has split its loyalties. You've got one foot in the Duckroll and ex-Heg camp, and one in the Doomhouse camp. There is absolutely no one stupid enough to believe that if any of Europa's allies came under attack by Doomhouse that Europa would help that ally. Thus, we're going to see more cancellations, or there are some alliances out there that will hold onto these treaties like security blankets, and that's just how much protection they'll offer if the rubber hits the road, as much as a blanket might. Edited March 31, 2011 by Schattenmann Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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