Rayvon

DKA - actually, in the original image that dagger was labeled as Nukes .. It was a satire comic strip of the US-Iran war .. Of the five of you, you guys were more appropriate for that dagger lol *responding from crackberry, it doesn't give me a quote button*

[IMG]http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq31/cduggan81d/SithBiznus/GiveDiploAChance.jpg[/IMG]

[quote name='Tungsten' timestamp='1281548200' post='2411286'] no, we're back to "don't accept nations at war with [b]another alliance that isn't just some 5 person micro without a protector[/b]" [ooc]Ray, find me on IRC sometime man, its been too long[/ooc] [/quote] To me that still says 'might makes right' .. Whether or not an alliance is micro shouldn't affect anything. They spied on him > He retaliated > He applied to us > RoK attacked him under our AA > Heft asked them to cease and provide info so we could make a decision > They DoW'd our alliance along with a large group > We're here. Mistakes on timing have been admitted all through. What still stands is Hoo thinks it's ok to go ahead and push just because y'all are bigger than us. [ooc]lol will do, it has been some time[/ooc]

[quote name='Merrie Melodies' timestamp='1281547661' post='2411263'] Yes NSO screwed the pooch aiding Sedric Yes this war is dumb [/quote] We've admitted our error on aiding him. To us, the war really isn't about that anymore. And yes, it is a dumb war. But we won't back down from our convictions.

[quote name='uaciaut' timestamp='1281546692' post='2411229'] TENE asked helped from Rok with the guy (as he was caused problems there) and Rok helped before the actual DoW took place. NSO accepted the guy DESPITE his ongoing wars with TENE and Rok and aided him DESITE the request not to aid a nation that's at war with them. [/quote] And they attacked him DESPITE forgetting to talk to us first while he was on our AA. The aid discussion came after he sent his fire teams in on our AA and we approached him saying 'Hey - he's under our protection unless you can give us evidence'

[quote name='agafaba' timestamp='1281544854' post='2411195'] The in game event recorder states otherwise, and I doubt its wrong. Look at the war screen and the aid screen for Sedric. [/quote] [img]http://web.me.com/danflemming/cn/sedrick_chronology.png[/img] The ones at the bottom? I guess Haflingers link didn't work for ya, I'll make it easier to see.

[quote name='Mr Damsky' timestamp='1281544157' post='2411182'] What are you talking about? RoK declared [i]after[/i] the aid was sent, not before. [/quote] Did they? Are you sure? Like, really really [i]really[/i] sure?

[quote name='Tungsten' timestamp='1281543877' post='2411177'] actively at war with another prominent alliance [/quote] So we're back to the 'might makes right'

[quote name='Merrie Melodies' timestamp='1281543221' post='2411166'] Yes you do have that right, and now your dealing with the consequences of exercising that right. Feel good? [/quote] Actually - it does feel pretty good. [s]Moo[/s]Hoo can push all he wants. Our sovereignty and our rights to be who we are won't be infringed. We don't feel pain from our pixels. We're quite enjoying ourselves. [IMG]http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq31/cduggan81d/SithBiznus/GiveDiploAChance.jpg[/IMG]

[quote name='Merrie Melodies' timestamp='1281540567' post='2411132'] I happen to agree TENE started this, long before he was a member of NSO, which makes it none of NSO business. What ever went on between Sedric and TENE is their business, not mine, not yours and not NSO. [/quote] Sedric came to us to join. We have a right to take him if we choose. We have a right to make it our business. It works for VE. Look at the Cost of Mercy Act. Section 1, point 2 "The nation requires Viridian assistance in resolving a prior entanglement that would prevent membership without the intervention of VE diplomats." .. In this case, we were the intervention. Heft went to say 'Hey, we don't like this, can we talk about it?' .. And well, you know the rest from there - skewed in your head as it may be.

[quote name='Sir Dingly Dang' timestamp='1281474804' post='2410161'] Now, to me, even without logs of Sedrick spying on TENE, and even without proof of sedrick taking money and running to MHA (and since they rejected him, I'm wondering what was verified there), [b]as soon as he attacked TENE, he was a rogue.[/b] He wasn't under MHA, and in fact, at least one war against TENE was declared while under "none". RoK had an obligation to attack him on behalf of their protectorate when asked.[/quote] Not if he's defending himself, it doesn't matter what his AA was. He's not a rogue for retaliating/defending.

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1281474257' post='2410149'] Yep. They will. This is the same bunch of people who used to hang out with Ephriam Grey. You remember him? [/quote] Ephie lol I actually kinda miss him for some weird reason

[quote name='Viking' timestamp='1281472784' post='2410123'] Besides, if you let trash in the alliance, sooner or later one will get to be gov and make a rash decision that gets you attacked. That may or may not be the case here. [/quote] Is that a veiled reference to Heft as trash?

[quote name='Viking' timestamp='1281472206' post='2410111'] The part where you implied accepting people with wars didn't cause this war. [/quote] It didn't. Failed diplomacy did. Whether or not we choose to accept vagabonds, thieves, your mom, rogues, or whomever - is our choice. Not yours. Not Hoos. Not Admins. The reason we're at war is because of a bad decision over sending aid without getting proper information (which they were not willing to share anyways).

[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1281470518' post='2410070'] In that case people should probably stop complaining that you're outnumbered. [/quote] Who's complaining? No Sith has complained about the odds.

[quote name='thisperson' timestamp='1281463902' post='2409946'] And it led to war...deal with it. What part of actions have repercussions is difficult to understand? [/quote] We're dealing with it just fine ... It's the masses that are bawwing because our treaty partners aren't coming in, and because our policies vary from the rest of you and because - hell, I don't even know half the crap everyone really has a problem with. While some members may not be 'happy' internally, we're all in this together. And we're all behind Heft. What part of all this is so difficult to understand?

[quote name='Sir Dingly Dang' timestamp='1281462813' post='2409924'] I didn't realize GOONS was involved in this war. I don't want NSO or its allies. It is a stupid war, but one brought on by stupid actions. How about NSO agrees that there was a rogue, RoK agrees to ZI the rogue, and both sides agree to a cease fire and diplomatically discuss how to best handle these incidents in the future before they reach this stage. You know, like coming to the "protector" with proof of rogue actions from the outset, and the "protector" maybe not sending aid until the claims are researched and verified? [/quote] We tried to have them verified. There was admittance that they don't have solid proof of him being a rogue. Hoo instead chose to extend his fist in the fashion of old. Why should we turn around and call him a rogue? [img]http://web.me.com/danflemming/cn/sedrick_chronology.png[/img] Does that paint the picture any clearer? Should we assume Hoo's word as gospel?

[quote name='Viking' timestamp='1281459227' post='2409813'] Hoo didn't say "aid, and we'll negotiate more" he said "aid and we'll smash you". Why are people still arguing that Hoo didn't negotiate further? [/quote] And we said prove he's a rogue. That was not done. Will you throw a member to the wolves over hearsay? Till we had proof, he was an accepted member. All it would have taken was a little effort.

[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1281458055' post='2409787'] NSO has allies too if they're that worried about it. [/quote] So is it NSO or our allies you want? The same thing has been said so many times. We're standing alone on this one. It's not necessary to bring our friends into harms way for this. It's a stupid war, for a stupid reason from a warmongering leader. Let him have his kicks and life will go on.

[quote name='BlkAK47002' timestamp='1281457148' post='2409767'] Actually those 4 alliances were needed. And they admit to it earlier in the thread. I know, what a shame. [/quote] That's what happens when you bulk your alliance with inactives just to fluff your numbers and feel good about yourself.

[quote name='Antonio Salovega VI' timestamp='1281431350' post='2409399'] Non-aligned nations get spied upon and raided though in this case the latter did not happen and the former is very questionable. [/quote] How is the former questionable? The screenshot of the spy attacks TWO days prior to his "aggressive wars" has been posted in this thread a few times over - and each time it's been brought up it's been just as quickly dismissed for the "aggressive wars" .. Seems no one really wants to discuss that piece of evidence. [quote name='Matt Miller' timestamp='1281451520' post='2409640'] Hoo's only evidence that Sedrick did any spying is the suspicious of the TENE guy he's was fighting with. There's no exposed spy ops, ya know, hard evidence. [/quote] [quote name='kevin32891' timestamp='1281392541' post='2408471'] He was spied on by the RoK protectorate. Thats why he attacked them. [img]http://img831.imageshack.us/img831/2376/spyop.png[/img] [/quote]

[quote name='caligula' timestamp='1281425638' post='2409301'] Why do you keep saying that? The only one with a higher rank than Heft is Lintwad AFAIK. [/quote] And Heggo

[quote name='Earogema' timestamp='1281417174' post='2409147'] I don't see how. OOC: It was Sunday in the middle of the day. There are a lot less people on at that time. I also don't see how you could say it has NOTHING to do with being a day time blitz on a Sunday, when in fact, that probably was a huge thing to do with it. And obviously it does matter how many people are on at that time because just 20 or so in a private IRC room is not going to be enough for 2 alliances to effectively blitz with. In fact, most alliances don't blitz in the day simply because there are going to be less people on. I personally would think it would be a NIGHTMARE to have to coordinate people on a Sunday in the middle of the day. Seriously, if you thought about it for just a second you could understand that. [/quote] Perhaps if he put more than 16 hrs into his 'diplomacy', perhaps he would have had more time to rally his troops and catch us off guard.

I remember ONOS.

[quote name='Earogema' timestamp='1281416591' post='2409126'] Nobody would refuse the help of an ally in this situation and you know it. "You defended me in the last war, so I hate you!" [/quote] No body would bring a friend unnecessarily into a silly war. Take Viridicide for example. Viridia had all her allies stand down - except CIS who chose to go down as well That was a curbstomp as well. Guess it happens on both sides of the fence.