ojiras ajeridas

Well, when you have Ramirus, you don't need any enemies...

WOW... this thread becomes better and better. We have an alliance demanding something nobody knows what it could be. We only know that each speculation made over here so far is wrong. So, in other words, IRON should do something nobody actually knows what it actually is, and before that isn't done, they won't get explained what they actually have to do. And after that they have complied that mission to do the unknown, they will expect another unknown. Actually, I wonder if they are explained afterwards what they have to do or if they are just re-attacked for not fulfilling the not explained things... That alliance sends exactly one person over here to talk to us about these things, of course he doesn't explain anything, as that wouldn't be funny. Actually he isn't able to explain anything as his opinion doesn't count anything within the alliance. But of course, it is us to be just too stupid not to understand this whole thing. Of course, not everyone is provided with an IQ like Ramirus is. Maybe it's about time that himself almighty showes up over here to bring some light in our dark brains..... What reguards MHA... you deserved better than this. Don't let your alliance take in that downwards spiral Grämlins has volountarily choosen to enter...

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='07 April 2010 - 07:13 PM' timestamp='1270660379' post='2251777'] Don't worry, many of our friends will apparently have their slots full with tech from TOP for a while! [/quote] I'm not sure we will double our speed in paying reps because of this your game.... so the slots dedicated to TOP will be full, those dedicated to IRON will be a bit more like... empty... but of course this will be a government's decision, and I'm everything but a respected [s]government[/s] member in TOP [quote name='Coursca' date='07 April 2010 - 04:26 PM' timestamp='1270650383' post='2251616'] Ojiras Unfortunately, the events you depict here could very well unfold exactly this way. But, then again...they would never let something like this spiral down the tubes like this for them...would they...? Nope, never...these guys are paragons of logic, morality, and what have you. [/quote] Coursca how're doing over there??? Wow... Paragons... maybe you're right... but did you know that a paragon is made of the same material as soot?

Grämlins, you have finally to realize that you stand in front of a dead end on this your path to more fun. You ask a thing from IRON no alliance can agree to. So, if you don't change your mind, we will stay at this point for other 2 or 3 months. This means that your allies won't get a dime of reparations by IRON in all this time. This means your allies will disagree more and more about this strange thing you are playing here. There's no way this thing will go well for you. IRON isn't that fool to surrender unconditionally without knowing what this kind of surrender actually is and what you plan afterwards.

I think it would be a wise move by Grämlins to end this bad PR for them and put the papers on the table... After all the alliance suffering most out of this strange game is Grämlins itself, as I see also many CnG and SF people quite disappointed by this behavior.

[quote name='AVFC1' date='05 April 2010 - 12:37 PM' timestamp='1270463858' post='2248938'] You're paying reps because you attacked us, and you are only repaying a fraction of the damage you caused. We (MK) have fought wars in the past and demanded no reparations, however this is one of the few wars in CN history where reps were actually justified, and your own government in acknowledged this in the peace talks (that they owed reps to C&G, but not others as they hadn't declared offensively on them). [/quote] While I agree that these reps (at least the ones going directly go C&G) were about the more deserved ones in CN history, I'm pretty sure that every alliance demanding reps is of the opinion of deserving them.

Finally!!! Now we all we can work again to get strong enough to bump our ego's to the infinite and ending in another war Also, great pity that the legend of TOP had to come down like this. There were needed only a bit more than 20 alliances to bring TOP down - OK, not finally down, but to the point a slight majority of TOP were of the opinion it would be better to agree to reps than to continue to fight. So, what did we learn from this fight? First of all, things never change. After the end of Karma war, everybody thought at big changes in alliances behaviour. But, well, the wars still end with significative reparation payments and big big big discussions if those amount were too lenient/fair/too harsh. Last time it was NPO to pay, now it is TDITT, next time maybe C&G (or SF or NpO or again TOP)... I don't expect any change in this. Maybe only Grämlins gave to the whole thing a new dimension... Also we learnt that some alliances meant absolutely unable to fight (like ODN) can put up a nice battle, while other meant to be great warriors (and you won't get any names here, I'm an educated person ) showed to be douches. We also saw that some alliances having the right to be offended for how this war began and went on showed like gentlemen, and that some alliances tried to get advantage of a certain situation... also this sounds somewhat familiar to me. However, now finally peace has reached, and the only thing I want to summarize from this semi-serious post is the following: It doesn't matter who the winner and the looser of a war is... CN never will change. The only thing that changes are the names of the alliances receiving or paying reps. This shouldn't be an attack on anyone. I just enjoy these (a bit) silly discussions about the harshness of reparations, these eternal comparation of rep payments throughout CN's history

[quote name='kriekfreak' date='03 April 2010 - 05:50 PM' timestamp='1270309800' post='2246566'] That was not the primary reason why FOK cancelled on TOP. It was clear that TOP valued their relationship with IRON over the rest of their allies (like Gramlins, Umbrella and FOK). Before sides were decided in the WWE TOP chose to stand by (and even lead) the coalition against most of their allies. To say that FOK requested TOP to cancel on IRON is just mind blowing and utterly false. You should really stop believing all the crap Crymson tells you. [/quote] This isn't crap told us by Crymson, these are things posted by FOK diplomats in the FOK embassy. I really don't blame FOK for coming down to this, sometimes it is better for two friends to walk on separate paths for some time if they don't see their paths matching any more. I blame you for distorting this whole issue to blame Crymson for things he never did, and I blame you for blaming Crymson in a thread that doesn't touch him in any way. This thread, if you forgot it, is about the unconditional surrender asked by Grämlins. Crymson is neither in Grämlins nor in IRON. So, please stop derailing this thread with unreasoned accuses. BTW... still nobody explained what that unconditional surrender could be, and the only reason given us by Grämlins up to now is "It's something new to make us having fun". Is there anything Grämlins would / could / should tell us to make this whole thing more understandable for the rest of the world?

Just two things.... First, what reguards the cancellation between FOK and TOP: FOK cancelled on TOP for TOP's unwillingness to cancel on IRON and to cut so ties to the so called ex-Hegemony. So, if ever, it was FOK to move away from TOP, as FOK decided to move away from ex-Hegemony and TOP didn't follow at the pace of FOK. So, I think it were less troubles between TOP and FOK as alliances but differences in their FA stances. Second, if Grämlins really worked towards white peace, this move would be the most stupid ever seen. If you want white peace, you just sign that white peace, without prolong the war and maximise damage for both alliance. OK, in this case for IRON and Grämlins' allies, as Grämlins isn't really involved in this war. And this makes the move actually that low, as Grämlins actually decides how much damage their allies are taking. I hope they recognize what for an awesome team player this once great alliance has become.

[quote name='Shamshir' date='01 April 2010 - 10:14 PM' timestamp='1270152864' post='2244251'] Apologies for not getting through all of this thread, it's long and I skimmed most of it. The main point of the thread seems to be about our uncharacteristic demand for unconditional surrender. Now not being an Archon (the folks who run my alliance) I an tell you that news or information about this change in FA policy was hinted to the Zealots and Templars of the gremlins. I could stand here and apologise for our lack of presence on these boards but most of those left in Gre are simply either inactive and don't have the time to view these forums like the used. RL happens so while many of you feel Gre is dying or dead i prefer to think of it as beast falling to sleep. Many prominent members have left us and thier tales have been banded around. I ask that you remember what gre was and what it did stand up, the respect it has built up as an alliance. The reason most of the members of the gremlins stay is based on that which made the alliance great. I can tell you personally and while I don't speak for my fellow gremlins I think this opinion resonates within the alliance well. I am very much against our leaderships decision to pursue this unconditional surrender from IRON. Notice I say leadership not any certain member as it's my belief that if Gre continues to go down this road which many are actively right now trying to right now. It will end in the destruction of the gremlins and a betrayal of it's fine name. But it will not be one persons fault, the blame will be on every archon allowing this to happen. I still believe in gremlin dream and hope that you will see the right decision made by my alliance. But jut like the average TOP who I respect immensely, were led to their ruin by their leadership but stood firm. You will find that Gre will stand till this war reaches it's conclusion. But when it does depending on the decision made you will either see a resurgent Gremlin alliance or one with very few members left. En Taro Adun [/quote] Does this mean we have just to wait until the next elections and the Grämlins will change its opinions? In that case... please hold those election... NOW!!! Related to the comparison Crymson - Ram, I think there are some major differences between the two cases. I'd say yes, Crymson had made his mistakes too. But: Crymson saw his mistakes, he apologied to the GA and didn't run at the next elections. While it is hard to say that Crymson's mistakes were his own fault only, as there were always some other people involved - both inside and outside the alliance - who could have done better - Crymson was leader enough to take responsability to step back - acting as a highly respected member of TOP these days, but without any office in government. I miss this taking of responsability in Rams case. Ram acts like a panic rhinozeros - he runs forward not caring what he is destroying, not thinking about that he is destroying something. Also, Crymson never was in a position Ram is now. In each step Crymson made, he encountered the opinions of other people, discussed them, took care about them. I mean, if he didn't do that, the legendary TOP speed wouldn't have born. Crymson never tried to fill all the position wich people working for him, he always respected the democratic rules and the charter in his actions. I see Ram on the road towards total dictatorship. Also... did I miss something or still did nobody explain what that unconditional surrender could be? Dear Grämlins, you can't expect anyone of us to understand you if you don't tell us what you are actually demanding...

[quote name='jerdge' date='01 April 2010 - 10:57 AM' timestamp='1270115854' post='2243537'] I am not in the peace talks thus I don't know whether the offer wasn't actually explained to IRON. I'm saying that it hadn't been explained [i]here[/i] (aka: to us / "the public"). [/quote] Fair point. But if you read through this thread (OK... it's a bit long), neither Grämlins, nor IRON nor any of all the other involved alliances (and CnG IS involved in this, as they are waiting to peace out too) explained what this offer means - and specially in IRON's and CnG's case I tend to the assumption that they didn't explain because they simply don't know. And if neither you, as if you are a very close ally to Grämlins, seem to know what this means, could it be that they actually told it to.... nobody? So, how do you do to expect people to agree at something they aren't even explained what it could be? Also... assuming that this unconditional surrender means what the majority of Planet Bob imagines it could be... how do you do to come up with such an offer at this level of peace talks? All the alliances already had the pens in hand to sign the peace. For me, clearly not a good time to come up with such unreasoned offers... What reguards your point about that "they should" or "they should not"... why are we going to pay reps if not because of "we should not have attacked CnG"? Isn't big part of this game about what alliances should do or not do?

[quote name='jerdge' date='01 April 2010 - 10:34 AM' timestamp='1270114474' post='2243525'] You agree that The Grämlins' issue about that "unconditional surrender" has yet to be explained, thus I don't get why you're all that heated about it. [/quote] Wouldn't it a wise idea, if you offer something, to be able to explain what you actually offer? How can you pretend your offer to be taken serious if you aren't even able to explain what you actually want?

[quote name='jerdge' date='01 April 2010 - 09:38 AM' timestamp='1270111070' post='2243500'] But The Grämlins are [b]not[/b] going to do anything nasty. [/quote] I'm afraid Grämlins are proving you wrong in this situation. I mean: - they entered a war in an aggressive way (OK, we did too, so let's condone that) - they offered peace terms with reparation (out of an aggressive war? well, OK, many people did, so nothing really to say) - they waited until those peace terms were accepted WITHOUT changing them (and up to here nothing to complain - when the peace terms were agreed by all involved alliances, they retired them (and here comes up something a bit nasty: why do you enter in peace talks between many many alliances if you retire your offer after having the opposing side agreeing on that? Is that lack of character, or did Grämlins simply forget about the talks? Or did they forget that there were some alliance more involved in these talks?) - now they offered this strange unconditional surrender, which they don't seem to know what it actually is (at least none of Grämlins was able to explain it to us) So, if you offer something you aren't even able to explain, could it be that it is an alibi offer? That you simply aren't interested in ending the war? Isn't this offer something you simply can't agree at? Who would expect reasonable terms offered after such a move? Why shouldn't they retire the offer again once IRON is totally disarmed? I mean, Grämlins already set the precedent of retiring things already agreed upon. What is Grämlins going to say to all those nations on CnG side who continue to eat nukes and loose both infra and tech because of them actually not knowing what they want? Honestly, in the last weeks of war I always felt bad nuking my opponents (actually all from ODN) who bravely declared on me to keep me in War Mode, without MP and in part even without SDI. Didn't they deserve something better than to be kept into nuclear fallout because of a sudden ego trip of exactly 1 (one) alliance? You sure they don't regret ever been supported by Grämlins?

Great to see!!! And if you choose an easier alliance name I'd also add a o/ Vassileion til Phoebe

... and orange missionaires again where successful!!! Welcome to the mostest awesomest sphere of this soon completely orange planet!

[quote name='Cataduanes' date='08 March 2010 - 02:23 PM' timestamp='1268054889' post='2217937'] Jenko is indeed a real gentleman, best of luck to you Jenko [/quote] You sure you mean the same Jenko that we do? That ex-CON, ex-VA, now TOP Jenko? That Jenkokencojenko? That continously drunk brit Jenko? That strange and chronical spam addicted Jenko? If yes... ehm... don't know how to tell you... yes you're right

Sometimes if people are full of hate it's just the fault of these people... Also congrazzz SGC... I'm pretty sure you'll do an awesome job, like every job you did in TOP so far. Jenko... PM me, and I'll help you not to destroy TOP at all

A great white peace granted by great alliances over great fighters = great announcement

I don't get all this discussion. FOK didn't want to be tied to ex-Heg, TOP didn't want to cancel with IRON, so FOK cancelled a treaty, we are still good friends, FOK won't attack TOP, TOP won't attack FOK over this, one treaty less, clearer treaty web and actually no bad blood at both sides (exepted exceptions of course )

FOK cancelled a treaty. FOK didn't cancel friendship. And because of this it is very early to say that FOK is betraying us with this step. Only time will show what this now treatyless friendship is worth - and I'm confident that FOK will pay back the favours we did for them when they have the opportunity. You don't need a MDP to be friends. And you can be good friends also when fighting on different sides of a war - I think TOP and IRON showed that in the Karma war.

Congratulations!!!! o/ EIC

WOW... we did great in elections!!!! Congrazzz to everyone involved..... and it is true... how can't you love Timberland????

Congrazzz on your new alliance.... although I clearly preferred you didn't found it and rested with us..... But I think you are A+-guys, and I'm sure you'll do fine. Also... yay protectorate!!!! reason for edit: insufficient skills of counting

Congratulations and good luck!!!!

First of all, I'm really happy that this conflict has been avoided. I don't want to make a long speech about the reasons for that - if it has been only the pressure by some bigger alliances who weren't very amused about this thing, or if it was Athens itself to see what they actually were doing. I hope that all involved and not involved alliances get clear that you can't simply attack another alliance because they are big and the other alliance is small, declaring it as a tech deal and expect that the whole world see it in the same way. Attacking an alliance is - per definition - an attack on an alliance. Or what would you say if NPO tomorrow attacked Grämlins or Echelon declaring it a tech raid (took these alliance only because the proportion of member count is quite the same). But... one thing I have to ask... and I'm really sorry if I'm a bit short minded here, but memory has never been my best... what where the reps again?