ojiras ajeridas

[quote name='rapmanej' timestamp='1280809600' post='2399110'] 1. Gre has not disbanded yet, therefore the treaty should still stand. Some people whine that "it's not the same Gre", but the treaty still says that even though some things will change, the treaty remains intact. However if Gre would disband, then the treaty would expire. 2. The treaty cannot be ended without violating its original purpose. It even says on the wiki page, that this is a dual-membership treaty. If this is the case, then the treaty was in fact meant to be something eternal, or until both alliances ceased to exist. 3. Norms can constitute action and reaction, however, when one's actions create a state of nature when it comes to treaty obligations, then this throws the whole entire treaty web into disarray, as alliances find it customary to bail. I might have been over-exaggerating to call MHA scum, but I still believe MHA does not possess the power to stand up for any principles, and furthermore, they continue the disastrous trend of infra> friends, which will only make the current situation of bob more in dire straits. [/quote] [quote] III. Härmlin is Heäring Our union is so true that we two shall share our governmental archives and communication structures and recognize each other's leaders as observers and advisors to the other. Frequent communication shall allow our illustrious Alliances to foster greater integration and intensify our friendship so that all Härmlin may be of common thought, mind and purpose. Therefore, from this moment on, those of this Accord shall share a common public meeting place for all Härmlin and those seeking contact with them. [/quote] I don't see where Ramirus met with this section. For what I see in this thread (and I invite people to teach me wrong if it wasn't like this) he mostly ignored MHA in his action during the last months, and finally he made white peace without even informing MHA. gRAMlins seemed to consider this treaty as a given, as it was indeed theoretically uncancellable (and from an e-lawyering point of view your right here). But when does a treaty become void considering the ignoration of the treaty by one of the signature parties? How can MHA be expected to accept everything? I mean, as long as there is one nation flying under GRE AA, the alliance theoretically exists, and so would also Härmlins Accords. I think every alliance would have cancelled this treaty at some point (although many alliances would have been careful enough not to sign it in a first point).

[quote name='Kzoppistan' timestamp='1280755665' post='2398320'] That's weak. When Athens pulled their little raiding stunt, MK stood by them. I don't even like those shroomy !@#$%^&* and they took a lot of flak for "protecting a menace to society" yadda yadda, but even I can say that at least they had the guts to stick by someone even though they made a very unpopular decision. That's what friends do. When you're bound by oaths of friendship and brotherhood, even when the other is going through a phase (which, obviously GRE are) and they put you in a tough spot or embarrass you by association, you don't abandon them. You console them, advise them, hell, [i]force them[/i] to make better decisions. But don't turn your back for the sake of political expediency. That's short sighted and, frankly, pretty weak. Don't you think that with the devastation wrought by Ramirus Maximus that you wouldn't have had a good chance of convincing the membership to seek a new path or leader? Or, even if you just waited, and GRE was reduced to nothing but a 1 man alliance, what harm would come of still staying true to a treaty you proclaimed as 'eternal'? Then, had you done either of those two, you wouldn't have to look like such spineless opportunists as you do now. Sad to see such a unique treaty come to an end, and I'm sure it was a hard decision. Probably not as hard as doing what you said you were going to do, but, hey, people make their own misery. Good luck and all that. [/quote] Actually, Gre membership had one of the longest threads in OWF's history to convince them to elect another leader. They had plenty of highly respected ex-members to convince them to elect another leader. They had the situation of an alliance falling apart to convince them to elect another leader. Well, Gre still has the same leader. You sure MHA could change something in that? And until the somebody proves me the opposite, I can't imagine that a long time ally doesn't address certain problems before cancelling a treaty. It was Ramlins who went nuts. MHA's problem was specially that time ago, when there still was a great and fine alliance called The Grämlins, some people signed an "eternal" treaty. So, if MHA cancelled this treaty, I fully understand them in this move. And no millisecond I have compassion with Ramlins for it. Everyone knew one day this would happen with Ramirus' kamikaze path.

I have to admit that that "It was wrong to cancel that treaty, they should have waited until Grämlins disband" made me smile a little bit. I mean, if we put aside exaggerated e-lawyering and watch at it from a more pragmatic point of view, what is better? To have a treaty with an alliance hoping on your disbanding, or cancel that treaty? If MHA continued Härmlins accords although they didn't find anything in common with Ramlins' path any more, these accords would have become some worthless paper garbage. Worthless paper garbage should be recycled as soon as possible. In my opinion, the big mistake in hindsight that MHA made wasn't to cancel this treaty, but to sign it. The expression "eternal" should be banned from treaties at all. Nothing is "eternal" on Planet Bob. The only thing that MHA violated in this treaty was the senseless non-cancellation-clause, which of course is unfortunate, but not worth all this hick-hack.

Isn't every treaty paperless unless you print it on a piece of paper?

[quote name='mrcalkin' date='30 June 2010 - 02:24 PM' timestamp='1277900677' post='2355084'] I am kind of tired of hearing that since they definitely weren't the only alliance to fudge with the Lux rules, yet they get crucified for it at every opportunity. Do I need to remind you who Umbrella held treaties with and when the Lux was dissolved? If Gremlins breaking Lux was justification for other members of the bloc to break it again, then the rest need to !@#$@#$ drop the issue already. [/quote] The point over here isn't the fact that they should have been the only one to break Lux, which they definitely weren't, but that Ram said they didn't break Lux, which is a straight out lie. The fact something is commited by many people doesn't make it not happened.

[quote name='Xiphosis' date='29 June 2010 - 08:35 AM' timestamp='1277793293' post='2353690'] TOP =/= Paradoxia [/quote] Huh???? Actually TOP = The Order of the Paradox. And as NPO = Pacifica and NpO = Polaris, TOP = Paradoxia.... Also, our pip is used also by quite some members outside TOP, as most pips are used also by outside players. So you can not be sure of the AA anyway looking only at the pip...

Congratulation to the new elected people. I wish you all the best in leading a great alliance.

Matthew, you have to admit the failure of Grämlins in this issue. If they contributed in a constructive way to ESA, they would have had the admission of defeat, the admission of being in the wrong by IRON. They would have had reps by IRON. Gre preferred to stay out of ESA, and this stance lead to the destruction of your alliance. Unfortunately Grämlins isn't in a position to demand anything. With 18 people left, 7 people over 70,000 NS, 4 people at ZI, another 3 people below 1,000 infra, actually you aren't a threat to anyone any more. So, the best thing you can do right now is to accept IRON's white peace offer, get rid of Ram and rebuild your once fine alliance to reach old glories. I am confident that you still have people able to do that. If you continue this way, it will last some more months in which you will be seen just as a pain in the $@! by most alliances, but at the end it will mean the complete disappearing of your alliance. Honestly, it will be a sad day when Planet Bob won't have any Grämlins any more.

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='28 June 2010 - 06:27 AM' timestamp='1277699235' post='2352454'] I don't necessarily personally agree with the ESA amendment, but there is absolutely no reason why all of the signatories couldn't agree to amend it. [/quote] Sorry for the sarcasm, but would you tell us what we should agree to before we were demanded to do that?

[quote name='peron' date='25 June 2010 - 09:30 PM' timestamp='1277494234' post='2350248'] I was approached by a FARK government member a few days ago and was told the following. Ramirus would agree to drop the unconditional surrender demand and start negotiations if IRON agreed to another one of Ramirus's pre-terms. Ramirus would like to amend the Easter Sunday Accords and add a Pre-amble to it. First of all, that treaty was signed three months ago, and GRE had their chance to add to it when it was under discussion. They refused and we find ourselves in the current situation. Secondly, we will not jump through hoops for Ramirus. He did not simply drop the unconditional surrender, if we don't agree to his pre-terms, the war continues. I can tell you that IRON council has rejected the pre-amble, and white peace for all of GRE remains on the table. We also were asked by the FARK member if we would agree to talk to Ramirus with a FARK mediator. Both DAWN and IRON agreed, but have been told by the same person that Ramirus has no interest in speaking to us unless we are surrendering. Thats where we sit today. [/quote] How can Ramirus demand an amendment to ESA? I mean, the Easter Sunday Accords is a treaty signed by many alliances months ago. An amendment to ESA would include each signatory - and I can hardly imagine that everyone would agree to it.

Did I just post a congratulation to a Ragnarok treaty? Well, as I feel familiar with it now... Congratulations, guys

Congratulations, guys... ....another treaty to make our web a little bit more sophisticated

I begin to wonder how long it takes until RAMlins are weak enough to be doomed by IRON even in the top tier.... or how long it takes that RAMlins are weak enough to have C&G preferring to start IRON the payment of reps instead of protecting Ramirus and 2 or three friends....

Congrazzz R&R!!! Keep high the orange flag

[quote name='caligula' date='19 May 2010 - 10:20 PM' timestamp='1274300384' post='2303633'] In my honest opinion, I would gladly stand by my brother, even at death if possible, for the hopes that he might recover despite whatever condition he may be in now. Yes, and while I have not been around long enough for much of this, it is clear that Ramirus' statements are the root cause of the entire problem. I believe that the MHA is holding onto the hope, although dim, that things will turnaround. We cannot choose who leads the Gramlins, we are sovereign alliances. Call it foolish or silly, but I hope that our involvement in whatever peace process is occuring will allow for GRE to survive this. Whether it has the strength to carry on under the current leadership is not up to us. Being there for them in their time of need is the most we can do in this situation. [/quote] I think this is a quite natural behaviour by a long time ally. The only thing that would concern me is that the people not following Ramirus' path don't try to turn the alliance around but simply leave that alliance. gRAMlins is down on 35 members now, and I do have serious doubts that there is still somebody left willing to stand up against Ramirus actions inside gRAMlins. So, I think MHA should realize that gRAMlins will be lead for a long time by Ram.... and if you don't agree with him, you should realize that it will be a long time that MHA won't agree with gRAMlins. And that's not a very good thing between allies. In my opinion, the only possibility for gRAMlins to survive this is a turnaround. Just to finish this strange thing. At the moment I just don't see it happen. And I don't see it happen in the next future.

As gRAMlins don't see Harmlins Accords as a treaty, but as a statement of internal philosophy, in that moment that one of the signed alliances realize not to have a common philosophy with the other alliance any more, the whole Harmlins Accords should be void. A treaty that isn't seen as a treaty can't be uncancellable. At the other side, under these circumstances, I don't see how any alliance excepted gRAMlins themselves can blame MHA if they decide not to follow this new Ramirus' policy any more. So, for me it is easy. If MHA wants to still support gRAMlins, they have to stand at the HA. If they don't, they have to cancel them. To say not to agree with Gre in actually anything but recall that not cancellable treaty is a poor decision and will harm MHA's PR much more than cancelling it.

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='03 May 2010 - 12:39 AM' timestamp='1272839939' post='2284249'] Disarmament is not a condition of surrender. IRON has been asked to surrender; nothing else. [/quote] Ehm... what??? So, what has IRON to do to surrender? Just say "We surrender"? Strange they did do that to anyone excepted Grämlins when they surrendered to C&G... It seems that IRON is in a very tough situation... they have to surrender, but nobody knows what that surrender actually should be. They have to accept terms afterwards, but nobody knows what those terms actually should be - neither the government of RAMlins knows about those terms, because they don't care about those terms. THEY DON'T CARE ABOUT THEIR OWN TERMS! Well, now I begin to understand RAMlins a little bit... they've become insane... I mean it's not very surprising that you don't convince anyone about this your poor strategy. The way you are thinking can't be understood, because it's just insane: You offer terms, and when they are going to be signed you withdraw them because they weren't official - well official enough to make them signed by 30+ alliances. But... when you have to withdraw them, why did you offer them? Did you ever hear about being coherent with your own actions? Then you come up with this strange surrender thing, where nobody knows what it actually is, and obviously RAMlins do everything to make this quite misterious. Only for asking reps that will be more than reasonable because otherwise RAMlins will break their own principles. But, do RAMlins actually care about their own principles? I mean, they don't care about their own terms, why should they care about their principles? And a last word about not caring at these terms: What happens if IRON and DAWN surrender tomorrow? You don't even have terms to offer to them. So, how can they even consider to surrender? And please don't come on with "We have, only I don't know them because I didn't ask". There might be somewhere in the government section, if they existed - a thing I seriously doubt after having read these last pages.

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='30 April 2010 - 06:42 AM' timestamp='1272602508' post='2281029'] I always speak personally. [/quote] In other words... what you are telling us about that unconditional surrender, is just what you think it could be, without knowing if also Ramirus sees it like this? So, if Mr Ramirus after that surrender says "Disband!" it was only you who thought RAMlins didn't do such things? However, it is becoming to get quite amusing how long and what it takes to make understand an alliance a thing the whole world has already seen for 2 (?) months now: that this your behavior (RAMlins in this issue, not your, PK's in this thread) is a gigantic peace of bullsh*t. I just am absolutely unable to understand why you don't go the shorter, better and cheaper way: put your terms on table, include the admission of defeat in those terms and end this war. According to your statements in this thread, these terms wouldn't be of a sort that IRON / DAWN wouldn't accept - so why this strange strategy? I mean, going this way you imply that your terms wouldn't be of a sort any alliance could accept if not in a totally demilitarized status, without nukes, without navy. If they can keep nukes & navy, the whole thing gets even more creepy. Then the whole thing of this is that you demand admission of defeat BEFORE having terms accepted, where having terms agreed however is the only stance to end a war. But I think RAMlins will never understand this. They will just wait until the last good member has gone and the whole alliance will be made of Ramirus + some people who prefer to follow his words to the last letter instead of thinking about those actions for their own.

[quote name='Shamshir' date='23 April 2010 - 01:42 PM' timestamp='1272022946' post='2271925'] If they coordinated well I'm sure they could bring the Gre's entire top end below that threshold and allow them to be pummled nicly in an IRON sandwich. It's happening to me right now and then hopefully we could end this war sooner rather than later . [/quote] For what I understood in this thread, the war could already be over - at least from IRON's side.

[quote name='tobbogon' date='23 April 2010 - 02:48 AM' timestamp='1271983687' post='2271354'] You make that sound much worse than it really is. Our members are not banned from reading the OWF, asking government members what is happening, or even looking at some of the threads about the matter. TORN's message did not seem like a "Hey buddy, i just thought you should know..." kind of message. It was a "Hey, your government is full of idiots, and they're going to get your nation destroyed. You should leave asap" kind of message. [/quote] According to the statements of members of your alliance like "The interests of our members matter only during elections times" or "Our members don't get information because of OPSEC reasons" I really don't know how to read these lines....

[quote name='SynthFG' date='19 April 2010 - 11:58 PM' timestamp='1271714286' post='2266818'] IRON isn't taking more damage tho, It's GRE who's bottom end is being handed a new one, whilst the top of IRON sits in peace mode waiting as GRE slowly falls apart [/quote] In this... I agree with you. Unfortunately there's one alliance who doesn't see it... or, maybe, as that alliance stated openly not to care at their members, it is just indifferent to them...

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='19 April 2010 - 07:37 PM' timestamp='1271698646' post='2266449'] Remember when "we" said that TOP would never surrender or pay reps? [/quote] Believe it or not... but the will to end the war of our allies played a big role in TOP's decision to end this war. If you go to war, you should have respect of your allies. Because your allies are actually your friends in war, you know? So, if your allies want to end the conflict, you should at least try to end it. This is called loyalism. [quote name='Liman Von Sanders' date='19 April 2010 - 08:16 PM' timestamp='1271700960' post='2266513'] Gramlins offers terms, IRON accepts, Gramlins rescinds terms and opts for way harsher terms... What is wrong with this picture?? Kinda reminds one of a certain other alliance..oh wait. [/quote] If I get you right, that alliance was smashed down some time ago and the people who smashed them down did that because they felt better than that alliance... well sad to see that things seem even to get worse now than they ever were....

[quote name='Rush Sykes' date='18 April 2010 - 11:23 PM' timestamp='1271625772' post='2265316'] At the VERY least, the notion that IRONs war was a rogue or criminal act, is debatable. It is not outwardly false. Their war against CnG was NOT in any way, shape, or form, a defense of, or an assistance to, NSO. That entire notion is patently absurd. On planet Bob, the definition of criminal is always evolving. There is no widely prevailing definition. Support what they are doing, or not, they are fully entitled to view IRONs acts as criminal in relationship to accepted standards on Bob (much like the world rallied to paint Athens raid on Ni! as criminal due to the standards of the planet) for entry into wars. IRON faced no imminent threat, held no treaty obligating them to attack GRE's friends. Yet they did. It is fine to not support their war. I too, would like to see them just let it end. It is not, however, wrong for them to view the act as criminal, and for them to determine what they themselves deem to be a just punishment. It is, in fact, blatant hypocrisy on MANY of IRONs allies to now claim that GRE has no place to dole out whatever punishment they see fit to IRON, because the aggrieved parties (CnG) have already agreed to a satisfactory end. It was not that long ago, that you all posted your declarations of war, based partly on tacitly "supporting NpO's war on \m/ in defense of community standards, stemming MOSTLY from the \m/, GOONs, and PC raids. Despite the fact that aggrieved party in THAT case(FOA, I believe it was?) had already been afforded acceptable compensation. I suppose its yet another double-standard played in the political arena, to further your cause. [/quote] We should however not forget that the war of IRON was against CnG. So, if we consider the attack on CnG a crime, it is a crime committed against CnG, not against RAMlins. Because of this it is CnG's exlusive right to fix how much of "punishment" the single alliances in war with them should take. At this point I want to remember that the reparations of TTIDT in favour of CnG & friends are fixed for quite some time now, that also reparations towards RAMlins were included in that packet, that CnG obviously found those reparation as adequate to make TTIDT pay for the attack against them. Only, RAMlins retracted themselves from these terms already agreed upon. We are paying reparations out of the war supporting NpO, we already committed that our attack on CnG was wrong. But this isn't comparable to the situation between IRON and RAMlins. RAMlins entered this war volountarily, as we did, and here the similarities end. All involved parts already had agreed on reparations also for RAMlins, an amount that was proposed by RAMlins. Now, if they aren't happy with them, why do they propose them? Because they are paperless? So, what has IRON to do to get peace? Won't RAMlins be paperless also after the unconditional surrender? Wouldn't agreeing to those Easter Sunday Accords without actually signing them be paperless? Or... is that paperless thingy just a bad excuse by RAMlins part for this insane behaviour? RAMlins weren't the target of this attack. If RAMlins wanted to, they had the chance to buy some pop corn and just watch the battle. It was because of RAMlins will to support CnG in this war that they entered it. I don't see how RAMlins are trying to play the victims now. I'm tired of that aggressive/defensive discussion. Fact is, IRON didn't attack RAMlins. They attacked CnG. So, if there are victims, it's CnG. So, I really don't understand where RAMlins come from with all that danger coming out of IRON.

Congratulations, my friends!

[quote name='Chickenzilla' date='16 April 2010 - 11:23 PM' timestamp='1271452977' post='2263220'] Not nearly as however much NS the NPO and TOP lost via bad decisions amirite? [/quote] NPO and TOP at least had the fun of a war. Grämlins is just destroying itself...