Cornelius

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1286086783' post='2472842'] Yes, it's just that you've admitted your good reasons have in the past included "we were planning on betraying them at the soonest practical opportunity." [/quote] We did try to make things work with GGA because we thought they were going to be there for the long-term, and we felt that trying to get them back would only make things worse for the Green team. None of us in 2007 expected GGA to fall apart as it did over the years. When we dropped with GGA and NPO, the GGA treaty was on its last legs, it just was never cancelled because there wasn't any point with our ties to 1V (which became moot when IRON dropped us). As for NPO, membership was always divided on them from the reformation. Eventually the gov members changed enough that the vote to cancel passed. Ardus admits he worked to destroy GGA and NPO, but he never shared those plans with the rest of us.

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1286083341' post='2472798'] As I said weeks ago, I'm surprised GOONS would go so low as to sign with fairweather cowards like VE. I mean lots of alliances scheme to destroy the treaty partners, but VE is the only one whose head of state has ever made a thread about how awesome they were for doing it. Good luck when you [i]need[/i] them, and don't worry, I won't be all "told you so." [/quote] We have never abandoned a treaty partner in time of war. And we don't cancel in peace time without good reason.

[quote name='The MVP' timestamp='1286070339' post='2472657'] If you stand for nothing you fall for anything. You and Viridia are perfect examples. Making a stand for what's right isn't stupid. Making decisions based on expedience is cowardly opportunism. Smart? Well, if boot-licking and biding your time is smart then sure. Just know no one forgets what you did just to get here. No one. [/quote] Who says we never stood for anything? And we have stood for what was right, usually when someone meant harm to ourselves or a treaty partner (i.e. NpO-FIST, NPO-OV). Did we go out of our way to make a stand? No, because every time we had to ask ourselves if it was worth it to die for that cause. It's human nature to fight or run, and if you're in a gun fight without a gun it's usually run. It takes someone really special to take a bullet for, you're lying if you say you'd take a bullet for anybody. That's what we faced for a long time, until we could fire back. You say biding time, we say patience. Even in Karma, we were 100% behind our friends and allies OV, and yet we feared that we were going to lose. We were ready to die then, because we don't leave behind our allies in times of war. Relationships can change in peace time and treaties can be cancelled then, but we don't cancel when the treaties mean the most.

[quote name='Mathias' timestamp='1285984057' post='2471767'] Chicken fingers and french fries happen to be very delicious. [img]http://thecastlehall.com/boards/Smileys/kickass/colbert.gif[/img] [/quote] I agree, sounds like my kind of girl. Rep, I'm sorry that I haven't gotten around to your post on our boards yet. I will when I get the chance.

[quote name='Caliph' timestamp='1285951747' post='2471168']GGA was a bigger driving force to destroying you, heck the war was started because GGA wanted to, and you came back directly allied to GGA. GGA orchastrated that war, but at the time when you came back the PR campaign to push all the wrong doings of Polar and GGA and to place them solely at the hands of the Unjust was in full swing, and too many bought into that propoganda lie. [/quote] The reasoning behind allying with GGA was rather simple: 1. they were allied to NpO, and thus we couldn't attack them and 2. we wanted to be back on Green, even if only half the alliance was allowed there. The other half mostly stayed on blue in thanks to NpO, again. If getting back on Green wasn't so important to us, we would've reformed on blue and had nothing to do with the GGA. Besides, GGA ended up destroying itself. And to be fair Leprecon, we weren't the only alliance directly tied to OV. GOD and Vanguard had every right to be there, and you could argue that anybody holding a MADP with them also had the same right (which included the SF and C&G blocs).

[quote name='Muddog' timestamp='1285912892' post='2470826']Now, you can use logical fallacies to refute my point in the GPA war, but you were committed to helping the NPO in that war; your involvement in the Wolf pack war is another example of your supporting the NPO curb stomps, I didn't say you were involved in every NPO curb stomp, but that you could have walked away during any one of them. Hypocrisy is that your alliance will not own up to the crimes you committed along side the NPO, simply saying yea we did it, sorry wasn't enough to free the NPO of their crimes, nor is it for you and its hypocrisy to think it should. Following that my next point was your reasons for cancelling on polar, [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=26226"]This tidbit[/url] is rather interesting as it does show that the general public was aware of the war on Polar being in the near future, something I'm sure weighed in on the decision to cancel the treaty. Again we can go back and forth on this issue you can spin it one way and I the other, but you canselled on Polaris knowing full well they were on the block. Hypocrisy in this is that you deny it. I'm not arguing your treaties don't predate KARMA, I'm saying the only reason you left the NPO camp was because you knew well ahead of time that KARMA was coming, which is an act becoming of a Self serving alliance. [/quote] We spied nukes from GPA during the GPA war, NPO knew at the time we wouldn't go any further. Not that they needed the help anyway, but if push came to shove the MADP would've been cancelled a year early. We could've walked away, yes, but we felt that doing so was tantamount to suicide. After all, we were destroyed the last time that happened. And as we'd be condemning some friends of ours that were as determined as us to not let history repeat itself, we kept our heads down. As for your link, if you check the date you'll note that it was posted the day [i]after[/i] we cancelled our treaty with NpO. Ardus admitted he took advantage of the situation after, but that was still after the bridge had been burned. And for the last time, we had no idea Karma was coming until right before the war itself, and we had no idea of it succeeding until after war broke out. Others might have, but we certainly didn't. [quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1285934264' post='2470972'] Yes, that's right; the mass cancellations didn't start until VE government decided to start campaigning for them. [/quote] Ardus already admitted he caught a lot of flak from us for some of the stuff he pulled around the time. [quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1285935213' post='2470980'] Yeah, no. Karma was not decided the times VE put itself on the line. The One Vision cancellations were pleasing to see as I wanted something to happen because people moving away from them was a good thing(given how long the Gre Q withdrawal took), but they were by no means a result of thinking they had the war won. In fact, many people thought they were putting themselves in danger. The first time you could say what would become Karma gathered was during the VE(on the VE side)-Int/ODN/IRON issue and it wasn't exactly the same sides. ODN and Int ended up becoming part of Karma, after all. It quickly fizzled until April. The war was definitely not decided then. [/quote] Right, that was our biggest fear when we made that move, that we were condemning our alliance. I didn't breathe easily until NPO's allies seemingly abandoned them after Karma started. [quote name='Centurius' timestamp='1285940227' post='2471013']<snip> [/quote] I just want to say that you're right, had you asked us for assistance we would not have hesitated. We weren't exactly in favor of either side in the conflict, and stated as much in our eventual DoW, and were brought in through our treaties.

[quote name='DictatatorDan' timestamp='1285905106' post='2470679'] [color="#FF0000"]The facts are pretty cut and dry. VE betrayed NpO.[/color] [/quote] I'm going to just assume that's sarcasm.

[quote name='Caliph' timestamp='1285904740' post='2470671'] That does not change what I said. VE enterred when the UJW was firmly in the hands of the ~. You enterred after that "incident" that is not to be named, VE formed and VE enterred the war against part of those who buried them but came back and allied those who were the driving force in burying them. At that time the war was not looking good for the Unjust Highway, and ~ was bringing in more alliances daily. So you can just save that lie for those who will believe it. You did what you did, own up to it, don't lie about it. [/quote] Our friends in the UJP, namely GOD, assured us that they were on the verge of bringing in other alliances on the side of the UJP before TPF's surrender. And the VE's return had been leaked before the incident that is not to be named, as you put it. GOONS even tried to issue an apology to sway us, though they admitted afterward it was simply for PR and insincere. The war was not in hand when the VE decided on its course, though maybe it was by the time we were able to act.

[quote name='Muddog' timestamp='1285900714' post='2470585']<snip> [/quote] Just cutting out the text so this doesn't get too long. You claim that the VE has changed sides for every war since the UJW? First, how can the VE have changed sides during the UJW? We reformed and immediately picked ~, we were not tied to the Unjust Highway in any way. Even if you look to when we disbanded we weren't tied then to anybody, part of the reason we were killed. Second, the WotC, even before we cancelled on NpO we only had two treaties with BLEU, NpO and NV. And I guarantee you that if NpO had not DoWed FIST, we'd have stood with NpO or stayed neutral, not sided otherwise. We considered them our most important ally at the time due to their support in our reformation, but we couldn't let the war against FIST stand because it would've meant that our FA would have been at the NpO's whim from then on (and we downgraded FIST for their part too). To this point you're only talking about one cancelled treaty, one that we still feel we had more than enough cause to drop. Karma was the first war you could accuse us of switching sides. And even then, any impending war was no reason for our cancellations. Ever since our disbandment, our membership had been skeptical of the alliances involved, but most especially GGA, GOONS, and NPO. When NpO helped bring us back, we decided to accept their allies as well, which included GGA and NPO (despite the unease that was ever present). After FIST led to us breaking ties with NpO, and everything that came out about NPO undermining NpO, things only got worse. Relations with GGA really spiraled off in the aftermath of my Protected Nation thread, where it seemed that GGA was falling apart at the seams. We couldn't see a way to distance ourselves from 1V without possibly getting killed. Plus I was reluctant to drop our one supposedly strong tie to the bloc, IRON. Unfortunately, or fortunately depending on how you look at it, IRON decided to cancel on us. Things had gotten so bad that it was enough for us to want to drop all ties to 1V, as evidenced by the fact that the next day we announced the cancellations. Part of it was that we felt that IRON's reasons for cancelling were so anal that the other treaties really didn't stand for anything anymore. So yes, you can say we switched sides there. I guess we had decided that the time to live in fear was over. We stopped looking out to not die, and started trying to be ourselves again. We could breathe more easily. [quote name='Sandwich Controversy' timestamp='1285902652' post='2470633'] This is not true at all, you entered the day after TPF surrendered. [/quote] [quote name='Caliph' timestamp='1285902839' post='2470634'] This is a lie, the war was firmly in the hands of the ~ coalition by the time VE re formed and enterred. [/quote] It seems that VE entering and TPF surrendering occurred the same day, with VE's announcement actually taking place almost an hour before TPF's: http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=2277 http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=2289

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1285877782' post='2470114'] [color="#0000FF"]While we're on the subject of VE, let us not forget that the alliance most necessary, without whose help they could not have reformed, was the New Polar Order. Yet despite that debt when the time came VE turns its back on them. While we all know they later betray the NPO, after the war they just forget all the values they once stood for and decide to be a tough guy alliance, and jump in bed with the likes of GOONS, et. al. And if rumors are correct, they'll soon be spitting on the face of electron sponge by celebrating in the name of GOONS and the UJP. Oh, how they have fallen. RIP VE, and my the monstrosity that currently pollutes your once revered name soon be put to rest.[/color] [/quote] [quote name='The MVP' timestamp='1285882371' post='2470207']I think turning your back outright on someone after they've helped you is treachery. VE's actions thus far have involved spitting in the face of all those that helped them and helping those that spat in their face.[/quote] VE cancelled on NpO for one reason, and one reason alone: their declaration on FIST with little warning to us. There was no opportunism, the mass cancellations didn't start until after the Ardus-Sponge logs, which didn't occur until several days after we dropped the treaty with NpO. In fact, if you read the logs, Sponge specifically mentions the treaty cancellation. Dropping that treaty directly led to the relations between our alliances breaking down to the point that we though NpO was about to declare on us, until Sponge was couped. And despite all that we refused a chance to declare on NpO during the WotC that started, as said before, nearly two months after that incident, as we believed that Sponge stepping down was enough. And as I said before, we only fought in that war because of two MADPs we held. [quote]@Cornelius - I may have misinterpreted the conversation. Though I have to ask what's ZIPP other than a joke that didn't spare anyone? [/quote] It's a statement of [i]our[/i] policy, not anyone else's. And it's an invitation for others to sign onto that policy, not a mandate. We caught flak from some of our allies at the time for it, and even today not every one of our allies is a signatory. Just because we hold ourselves to that standard doesn't mean we try to lord it over everyone else. [quote name='The MVP' timestamp='1285882859' post='2470212'] Yet you knew Polaris head would soon be on the chopping block. As you called it, it is [i]opportunistic[/i]. You got out of a treaty that would have landed you in a bad situation. Besides that's not the incident I was referring to and I wasn't even talking about you.[/quote] No, we didn't know NpO was on the chopping block. All we knew when the treaty was cancelled was that NpO was being kicked out of 1V. As I said before, if you check the dates, the mass cancellations didn't start until days after we dropped our treaty and 1V kicked NpO out. [quote]My point is at one point you were thought to be the [i]antithysis[/i] (sp?) of GOONS and now are allied to them and support their actions. VE historically, it appears, doesn't stand for much other than siding with the part that has the most alliances. And isn't it just the most opportunistic thing that GOONS now are in a position of power and when you opposed them they were on their way to defeat? [/quote] When VE died, it was treatyless and independent. When it came back, it had ties with alliances that had helped destroy it (or we wouldn't have been able to come back). VE also allowed tech raiding for a time, and continued to do so until a lengthy and divisive debate eventually led to us repealing it. Personally I never supported tech raiding, and couldn't bring myself to actively take part, but that wasn't the opinion of every Viridian. Yes, you had the standard moralist arguments, but ultimately what decided the debate was that we felt it simply wasn't worth it. And GOONS had to work for months to convince us that they were truly different than their predecessors. I was among the skeptics. The old GOONS never would've gone to the lengths that the new ones have, especially diplomatically. If not for their sticking with the old acronym, they would be treated like any other tech raiding alliance. That was actually one of my questions, why they chose to take on that stigma. As for opportunism, when we joined the UJW the outcome was still in doubt. And if their rise now was the only good point in their favor, we would not have signed any treaty with them.

[quote name='The MVP' timestamp='1285871963' post='2469990']Didn't Ardus take the blame for the Polaris cancellation saying he was a coward in what he did? Well, seems like you guys and Ardus have some discussing to do. http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=87791&view=findpost&p=2343435 [/quote] Actually if you read, the cancellation was for NpO attacking FIST: [quote][The VE-NpO] treaty was canceled after the FIST war but before the Chickenzilla incident. It was canceled because: 1) Myworld's refusal to even entertain the thought of letting SCM's hi-jinks and subsequent attack on FIST with almost no heads-up really ticked me off. To this day I consider one of the most disrespectful things I've ever suffered in CN. The lack of notice is also why I canceled with zero heads-up, the one thing from the affair I regret. 2) Doing nothing would have reaffirmed VE as an NpO lacky, the latter capable of running right over the former in affairs.[/quote] Where Ardus expressed his regrets was how he handled the Chickenzilla incident that occurred later, leading to the infamous Ardus-Sponge logs: [quote]Polaris general membership didn't deserve to be demonized like it was in the wake of the first CZ incident.[/quote] And by the way, we were offered a chance to go in the first wave of the WotC, but we refused since the CB was directly against the ZIPP. But when MK declared on an alliance of ex-Viridians, we couldn't ignore the two MADPs that were both activated (TORN and NPO). The only treaty we held with the other side was a MDoAP with NV that still stands, and the defense clause in the treaty allows the parties to simply not ask the other for help (which we both agreed to before the war, as it was apparent that for each of us it was the only possibly conflicting treaty).

[quote name='Reptyler' timestamp='1285725802' post='2467530'] Vanguard (I guess MK will do), another treaty with GOD, and [s]GOONS Umbrella[/s] Poison Clan. [/quote] Three treaties with GOD aren't enough for you?

[quote name='Aurion' timestamp='1285688443' post='2466870'] That's a pretty difficult question. If I had to pick. VE, SF bloc, and..um. Too many good choices to pick from. Keeping SF as a whole's a massive cop-out too, heh. [/quote] What are you going to do? Kick people out of SF until there are only three members?

I'd keep the Maroon Entente with GOD, the NV MDoAP, and one treaty that doesn't exist yet. And throw in a reminder that we'll defend any Green alliance if we feel like it.

Welcome back, Tulak. It's nice to see you around again.

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1284415736' post='2452769']colour[/quote] Englishman. Maybe Admin took WTF's seat in retaliation for them avoiding sanction. Just for a couple days though, as a warning.

[quote name='BamaBuc' timestamp='1282275036' post='2423917'] Two words: Protected Nation. -Bama [/quote] And to think, if author rights hadn't been revoked just before then, I'd have locked it as soon as I posted it, well before it got to page 6 (and Dephire's post). I expected GGA to get trolled. I did not expect that.

April, if it makes you feel any better, I've passed the four year mark.

Correction, our Secretary of State only took issue with zenergy. It was our Secretary of Defense that made the statement you are referring to.

VE obviously has some hard feelings with zenergy. Despite that, knowing the pain of disbandment, I take no pleasure in seeing GUN disappear. I wish the best of luck to its wayward members.

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' timestamp='1280649256' post='2396905'] What the hell is this, we don't speak spanish. [/quote] Don't forget Portuguese, for Brazil. Cody just picked it because it included the Amazon to tie in with the whole "Welcome to the Jungle" theme. And we have a nice avenue for expansion to the South.

[quote name='zzzptm' date='16 July 2010 - 01:04 PM' timestamp='1279299825' post='2374643'] NPO-TOP-IRON leading a bloc, then? [/quote] You're looking for the long-term then, as IRON hasn't even been able to start its rep payments yet. The conspiracy theorists would say that it was intentional.

We're coming for you, WTF.

[quote name='Van Hoo III' date='15 July 2010 - 02:08 PM' timestamp='1279217304' post='2373164'] Congrats, friends. Also: Hi Cornelius. [/quote] Hey Hoo. I owe the VE for a lot of things, especially having been a member for much of my time here on CN. I'm approaching four years in the game myself, and it's hard to imagine what I'd be doing without the people I'm honored to share an alliance with.

[quote name='Ardus' date='29 June 2010 - 10:18 AM' timestamp='1277821106' post='2353917'] Well, they tried to at the very least. "Rolled" suggests a degree of success. [/quote] You're right, I guess "attacked" would be a better term.