Seerow

You know I am curious about how TPF feels about this mass peace on the NPO's part. I mean really look at the stats: Page1 (40 nations per page) TPF: Total NS: 1.7mil -12 nations in war 28 in peace. 810k NS in peace mode -Lowest NS on front page: 16,321 -Lowest Infra on front page: 0.00 NPO: Total NS: 7.1mil -40 nation in peace. 2.67mil (fun side note, NPO's top 10 is stronger than TPFs total top 40) -Lowest NS on front page: 44,392 -Lowest Infra on front page: 5060 Seriously, just look at those numbers for a minute. NPO's top 40 in totals more NS than their best remaining ally. Nobody can doubt that TPF has fought this war fully and their nations and statistics reflect this. The problem people have with NPO in peace is that really unless you knew their prewar strength you would never know they fought a war looking at their upper ranks. This is why people have a problem with NPO's peace mode nations, and why peace won't be achieved without either a majority of them coming out, or crushing terms. That said, as Ive stated before I think Karma's additional reps policy was a bad choice in policy, and there were many more effective things they could have put before the NPO instead to encourage them to come out of peace. I'd personally let them keep their peace mode nations without any nukes, accepting their excuse of being banks. A 10k infra nation without nukes is retarded and should probably go join the GPA. Damn hippies. All the others I'd say force out, but there are other terms you can give to do so that aren't reps. Fact of the matter is this has turned into a PR disaster regardless of the resolve of any of the alliances involved, but it's a train wreck that's already happened, so there's not much to be done but clean up.

No, MK wasn't at war with NPO for two years, but there was a rather recent war with MK nuking NPO extensively if you'll recall... After all, after that first month or two, the speed that nukes fly slows down significantly. That said I wouldn't doubt that FAN lays claim to many more of Moo's nukes than MK ever did.

Then make your member understand the consequences of his actions. I for one question any alliance willing to take in someone who will break a contract and flaunt it on the forums, as well as attack a former ally over a joke. If Sileath withdraws his claim that he no longer owes NSO, and pays it to us in a timely fashion, I'll have no issue with him. However if he continues to insist that he has been the wronged party here and believes that rather than paying what he owes he will be able to con us out of reps, I will teach him he has another thing coming. Please be aware I hold no official position in NSO and my actions are my own, as is the responsibility of any action I should choose to take. I have no real problem with Athens, except that you seem to be condoning Sileath's erratic behavior.

Seriously Sileath, keep it up and I'll find a way to drop 800 NS.

Since you made this post seriously, as opposed to the last one that just made me laugh, let me ask you a serious question in turn. If Karma came out today and said they had a list of every nation currently in peace, they wanted to fight 3 cycles of war against each of these nations, at that time they would give you terms. Or even if they said they wanted to take each of these nations below 500 infra at least once. Assuming these were standard terms, including the reps already incurred by the pre-terms, and a flat moderate amount of reps (say about what IRON got, maybe 50% higher, then add in the extra reps from the peace mode fines on top of it), military decom, treaties suspended, etc. Would the NPO accept? Basically if you got what you claim you want, an assurance from Karma that the war would not last forever, but would be a relatively quick beating followed by peace. Would you then accept it and come out of peace? If it's not your position to say, talk to Moo or the other IOs and get back with an actual answer. Because if that's the case I'm willing to place a strong bet that some sort of actual agreement can be worked out. But then again who am I to say. Both sides have been very stubborn in this conflict. Either one of you giving just an inch of ground could end the war in short order at this point.

I'm sure the NPO is more than happy to police its own members without your help. Please let him continue, this is just getting interesting

To be fair I was just expanding on someone else's analogy. I tend to avoid them. That said I'll reiterate for the umpteenth time (and will continue to do so until people start adopting it) banning the use of financial aid in any form incoming or outgoing, internal or external, is the best way to deal with this. It eliminates all accusations of greed and revenge, and successfully stunts growth far more successfully than reparations ever could. I'd also say rather than charging reps for all nations in peace mode, go through a list of all nations in peace on this date. For the duration of all other terms (however long they may be) plus an additional 30 days, these nations must remain in peace mode. Any nation exiting peace mode earlier would be sentenced to a single ZI, at which point they would be free to go. But hey, the NPO likes their biggest nations in peace so much I don't see why this would be an issue. But I have no say in the surrender terms, so these have almost no chance of ever being seen actually on the table. But hey, if I talk enough maybe someone in power will listen, eh?

It doesn't invalidate the wisdom of judging after the fact, rather than trying to set terms based on something still ongoing. Especially if you want to base it on something like a length of time. While I don't feel that however absurdly high the reps get as a result of this it will be impossible for the NPO to pay off, the fact is they won't accept it, and while they refuse to accept the number grows, and so on and so forth. The whole ploy is just waiting to blow up in Karma's face. But it's too late to take it back now, if they try to retract it now the NPO will consider it a small victory in their favor, and lord over everyone how the resolve of karma is weakening. I just wish I knew exactly what Karma was thinking when setting this. Assuming the NPO continues to dig its heels in the longer it goes on the worse it will appear for Karma.

Yes, and the police officers are the ones who decide which charges are being pressed while the situation is still ongoing, rather than waiting for it to end and let the lawyers sort out what is deserved based on what took place in hindsight? Also it's resisting arrest and obstruction of justice whether it lasts for 1 hour or a day, or a week. I don't think there's any law anywhere that makes the penalty increase the longer the criminal keeps it up, new penalties get tacked on for new crimes, not the duration of a crime.

This is a lie. PZI lasts until the alliance in question feels like they need a PR boost, or simply have too much else on their plate to worry about. This coming from the guy who was PZId for over a year before getting off. Pretty sure there was someone who came to MK back when I was there who was at least 9 months in bill lock before getting off PZI as well. Can't remember who it was though. Some people may get off with an apology, most don't. Most just delete and reroll.

The more appropriate analogy is if a kidnapper proceeds to barricade himself in a house, is it considered appropriate for the Police/SWAT/whoever shows up to tell the kidnapper the longer he stays in the house the higher his fine is going to be and the more time he's going to spend in jail?

I certainly hope so. Ive been needing a good tech raid recently and I noticed one member there a while ago who if I wasn't supposed to be protecting him is oh so ripe for the picking...

Y'know I would go on here (in fact I had a decent size post written up already...) but it's not worth it to pursue publicly. If you're referring to leaving during the whole OOC fiasco, that's not what I hold against you, it never was. That's an issue of morales, and by the definition of OOC, outside of this game. It was your military leadership that had me curse you more than anyone else on either side of that war (anyone who was in MK at the time will vouch for this) that I hold against you. But you mentioned elections, so all is explained. Go back to arguing over whether NPO getting reparations increasing daily is valid or not.

Wait you managed to get another position in military after the Unjust War? Wow. Just wow.

I have to say Locke, those PMs are amazing. I must subscribe to your news letter.

Wow under your system I'd -never- get a DRA. Seriously. Send out more money for the same amount of tech?

Complaining via the official game forums is perfeclty acceptable. However people who complain while then turning around and continuing to use IRC for diplomacy thus perpetuating the problem are hypocrites.

I am sad it took 2 pages before Diskord's name came up. That guy was the best CN has ever seen, and I hope he comes back to full activity in the future.

I would say that asking questions should be encouraged. Why would a new thread be required when you have a perfectly good one here? I for one am enjoying the discussion finally starting to warm up.

As far as alliance leadership, I have to say Mpol ES and Ivan all strike me as funny in their own right. Mpols announcements are the best, Ivan and ES when they step down from their pedastals can make me laugh a lot. For example Ivan's return topic I was very amused by. ES has his moments as well, though his moments tend to be more in the "evil dictator" fashion, and not really comedic fashion. Schatterman gets points for TWIP as an entertaining writer and propaganda writer all around. Most others tend to be more funny on IRC, or alliance forums, than on the public forums, which I don't think should qualify anybody. Anyone who wins should win based on what they have done in front of the mass public eye, not in private.

Hey now, that poo flavored ice cream had a great PR campaign going along with it. You'd be suprised how much it sold before people realized it actually WAS poo flavored.

No, no, those are "bank nations". They apparently have over 200 of them at Pacifica, otherwise they can't rebuild. You see, it's immoral to demand that we attack that quarter of the alliance we're at war with. Simply not true,You guys got a shot at them.We can't help that in the rush to get a target you guys failed to stagger. i don't know if you looked at bob's comment but quite a few of those nations never even went into war mode... other than that meh i couldn't care less if you guys sit it out in peace mode it just means those that aren't in pm are slowly going to be ground to dust by an overwhelming force. For those who say they will keep lobbing nukes etc etc, you may be able to but what's the point of lobbing them at lower ranks , you do minimal damage wich can quite quickly be repaid for and it's too costly to keep doing it for ever. The NPO has shown quite well that it's easy too maintain a peace keeping force on lower ranks. I did look at Bob's comment and it looks correct for the most part.But proportionally We haven't done anything that any other alliance hasn't done in the past. Saying "jump off a cliff and We won't kill kill you so bad"Is not a very good incentive for peace.If anything it only encourages us to continue as We have nothing to lose. I don't recall many alliances having more than 50% of their nation strength in peace mode. Not even FAN went that far (not counting nations that ditched AAs and hid elsewhere). Using peace mode as a tool is one thing, there's a difference between using peace mode to recover from nuclear anarchy and launch new attacks, and just sitting there pretty waiting for the war to end.

Ivan, Dilber, and ES maybe. Moo really sucks as an evil overlord, as is shown by the NPO at last falling. Fact is Moo has always let the IOs run the show, he makes a great figurehead, but his inability to actually act without bringing his harem of advisors into line in something that distinguishes him greatly from the others. Don't get me wrong, I always liked Moo as a person, but as a leader his weakness in actually uh, y'know leading, is fairly dissapointing.

What better way to make sure they don't happen again than to make sure the originator of the practices tastes the full bitterness of what they wrought? On an aside, for those who think that the additional reps for peacemode nations is harsh, a brief look through the first two pages (the top 10% of the alliance) shows that there is over 4 million nation strength in peace mode alone. (I counted roughly 4,098,000 but I just added the thousands together so there could be a leeway of tens of thousands higher than that). Of that top 10% of the alliance, 87% is in peace mode. Their 4million nation strength in peace mode represents more than half of their remaining total nation strength. Their peace mode nations alone would take place 21-22 on the alliance rankings. Just think about those numbers for a minute and realize why Karma needs to force a good portion of those nations out before letting NPO get peace. This isn't an issue of fairness or getting back, it's an issue of how can you effectively win a war while leaving the enemy's whole upper rank fully in tact?

I'm waiting for all the "Good Article Archon" posts to end and actual discussion to take place.