Seerow

It's obviously not just what I see given that out of everyone who's posted only you and halfinger have seen what you claim was meant. Perhaps you should just give up? I mean really far fewer people would have seen the lapse had you not brought it up 10 pages later to begin with, and the longer you carry on the worse you make yourself look. At any time you can apologize and go home to save at least some face. Nice Wiki page. Is there something there I'm supposed to see? I guess that you have treaty partners that aren't NPO is what you're trying to get at? *yawns*

If you take him out of context then yes, it COULD mean that. But let's look at what he said just before that (to which someone asked him if it was a threat): Clearly indicating that Invicta would not be acting until after NPO is released from terms. In the quote you are saying that you would be moving on, what it seems pretty clear to me he is saying is that it would be a bad idea to have terms that last until February, as you'd be putting the game on pause and making NPO's ally's (namely Invicta) wait until February to show their hand. Except he said that you'd be -forced- to be watchers due to NPO's peace and Invictas apparent lack of outside ties to anybody else. Please, keep digging. I'm willing to accept your apology for needlessly insulting my intelligence and turning your own inability to express yourself clearly into an extended public issue at any time.

Let's see: His summary about right to me. Let's go on. Once again a pretty apt summary Once again he hit pretty much exactly what you said. But please, keep digging and trying to claim you said something else. You may have meant something else but what you said very clearly implied exactly what everyone else read into it.

Thank you for finding those posts.

You managed to dig back and find my post. Tell me where my post was and I'll find his from there. Expecting anyone to wade through this mess to find one specific post borders on ridiculous.

Indeed. 100,000 tech is roughly equivalent to 3 billion. So the overall terms are equivalent to 16billion, which isn't a laughing matter. It's doable over time, but still petty hefty. If we're forced to deal with a set amount I'd say it feels about right. That said there's so many other more interesting options I can't wholeheartedly agree with Karma's position. But alas, what can you do.

Let me know what page you dug that quote out of and I'll find it for you. I'm not digging through 150 pages of this thread to find one post, but if I know where the discussion was happening I can prolly find it.

If he outranks you let him defend himself. He claimed explicitly that while NPO is under terms that the political game would be dead. There is no twisting of words to be done there, he said it himself! You're really just fighting a losing battle. You can't alter what he has already said, so just quit while you're ahead.

I'm pretty sure that's not what he said. If that's what he meant, I have to admit I'm not a psychic so I can't contradict that. The claim asserted was that the time NPO is rebuilding the politics of the world will stand still because the NPO can not participate. The argument against that was that plenty of other drama will be taking place with or without the NPO, and Invicta or anyone else will have plenty to keep them entertained if they remain open minded. And how per se does giving NPO time to rebuild and re-evaluate themselves prevent invicta from taking part in any politics that does not involve the NPO? It doesn't. And that's the argument being made. If you can't see that Invicta has a political future and will be able to continue to enjoy the game without the NPO then really you are every bit as bad as the GGA has been over the last several years. Cute, your member messes up and you try to cover it up by insulting my intelligence My IRC time is not what it used to be, and I've never been the diplomatic type. I rarely deal with strangers, and avoid contact outside of my alliance in any personal fashion 9 times out of 10. I judge by what I see on the forums, and in this case I was judging by the posts that led up to the comment you quoted. I see no reason for me to want to get to know Invicta any better than I already do based on this. If you don't like the perception your member gives your alliance, perhaps you should have said member stay off the forums. edit: Perhaps you should brush up on your reading yourself. Go back and reread what was actually said, the responses were not that off base, your member may not have spoken for the alliance, but he sure enough spoke as though he did. You can't blame us for the impression your member leaves.

And now we're back to "You're going to be as bad as we were!" No, you just let the cycle continue.

o/ ARCHONISM That man is a monster.

I could of course be wrong, as I have no position within karma, however it is the general feel I get from the reparations that have been offered and the timetables presented by karma supporters when claiming the NPO can pay off the reps.

Usually the duration of terms I consider as the duration that nukes are to be required to be decommissioned etc. Post UJW MK finished paying off reps about a month before terms expired. So you'd just have to set the duration for terms in general and let it ride from there. I'd say 90-120 days would be good, but judging from the time frames given to pay back reps as it stands then it's more likely to be 180 days. (6 months seems to be the magic number karma is shooting for)

If you read the rest of his plan it allows for the aid being sent internally to raise new banks and get your members back on track. He doesn't need to give that extra slot in the initial figuring of efficiency because it's accounted for further in.

It would have done better for you if you had spread this message of change before you attacked OV. But then, if you had actually changed you wouldn't have declared on them like you did. It's always convenient how people losing a war see the light.

Enjoy your reprieve. Taking a year or so off does wonders for your outlook on the game.

Which is what I assumed from the beginning. You're the one who said $51,005,338million. But we're getting off topic and this has no real point. So to attempt to stay on topic I'm going to repost my alternative to the current reps demanded: -For the duration of terms, all aid sent to NPO nations is to be tracked. For every 3million dollars received by an NPO nation, 6million must be paid to Karma forces, or the equivalent in the form of 200 tech. For every 50 tech received by an NPO nation, 100 tech must be paid to Karma forces. Amounts received by the NPO will be calculated every 10th day, and forwarded to appropriate NPO leadership for resolution.

You said 51,005,338 million. Which means add 6 zeros, which I did. Regardless, you're saying in the last year I've received 51 BILLION in aid? For the record I have 6 aid slots, and if I had all of them filled entirely for the last -50- aid cycles (which would be probably a few months longer than what was tracked), it would translate to $900,000,000, a fraction of the amount you provided. I'm pretty sure all zeroes need to be dropped. I'd believe I received 51million, but any zeros added to the initial figure you provided makes it pretty unrealistic. If I had received that much Id be much bigger than I am now, even with a year and more of war.

Fun stuff. Too bad that tracking didnt start until I was already well into ZI land. I wouldn't have minded arranging a round two against those who initially hit me. Also the wars from my time in the NPO 2-3 years ago is what I was really hoping for. Like I said, too bad that tracking wasn't available back when I was there. 51,005,338,000,000 seems off though. You sure that is right? Maybe taking off the million it sounds about right.

[offtopic]Y'know I wish NPO had kept lists like that back when I was there. It'd be fun to look back through my old war histories. The logs are pretty cool.[/offtopic] [ontopic]blah blah reps are fair blah blah incompetence blahblah[/ontopic]

Nukes are 80 damage per day we agreed. Ground attacks are 30 per day (if it's affected by WRC as I believe it is then we have to take into account the 60% increase we gave to nuke damage, so 40 per day). That's as much as 50% as much as a nuke. Yes nukes are the driving force, but ground attacks still get the job done. Your numbers assumed not just maximum damage from 6 ground attacks per day, which inflates the number quite a bit. Turtling instead takes it down about 30 tech lost per day, reducing the overall damage by 400. Takes your number from 1300 tech damage to 900. A significant reduction. Except Letum just admitted that his expected tech loss was 150k, which is a hell of a lot closer to what isaid than you. The 345k max possible is not feasible in the case of NPO. It would be possible if say TOP and Gre combined were placed in a losing war where their members were all getting ganged and taking maximum damage, but that's an unlikely scenario at this point in time. In order for that to happen all of their peace mode nations would need to have that much tech to lose in the first place (which they don't). They would in fact need probably 500-1000 more than that to be sure maximum losses occurred each time. There's what, 50 nations in the NPO who will lose tech at the levels indicated? 50*900=45,000 from them if they turtle. The other 200 peace mode nations all have far less and will lose far less as a result. So Letum's numbers of 150,000 tech lost appear to be accurate. So given that, your numbers will look more like 175%, again, roughly double what Athens paid. Athens was a defensive war, NPO is an aggressive war. NPO has a long history of wrongdoing. The amounts are not that outrageous. As to the NPO being restricted to certain nations to pay reps with, really they need to consider it a blessing in disguise. That means that their other 500 nations with less tech can be sending money internally to help get the alliance going again. Nations with tons of tech and no infra left can just send off their tech as a part of the reparation effort, and maybe leave a slot or two open to receive aid for help in rebuilding.

I disagree with Letum on most things he's said in the last 48 hours or so, but we can agree here. If NPO were going to use AA hiding, they'd be shifting their lower profile peace mode banks to outside AAs, not somebody like Dilber.

Assuming maximum damage on all attacks. Also you're assuming the nations won't be turtling which lowers the damage from ground attacks significantly. Also nukes take out 50 tech, barring a WRC. Though I'll give you that it would probably average out to 80 per nuke on the large scale. Remember, the closer you get to 0 the lower the damage is. So the nations with 500-1k tech won't be losing that much, they probably won't even hit 0 in the course of 14 days. This means that any flat multiplying of numbers as both you and Cortath have done in the last couple of days is disingenious and exaggerates the actual effects. After all if we just multiply it without looking any further then this is what you get: NPO has 261 nations in peace mode currently. Each of these nations will go to war for 14 days and lose 1322 tech. NPO will lose 345,042 tech in this time. Which is clearly untrue. I don't think any alliance ever has lost that much tech in so short a time. It is possible, yes, but it is certainly not the situation you will find yourself in. I'd predict a loss of 100,000 tech in the 2 weeks of war. But we can't be sure without more math than its worth or you guys coming out to test the theory. Edit: I had forgotten where I was going with this. If my surmise is right and the extra war results in 100k tech lost, that brings NPO to ~350k tech. With the previously calculated 533,500 tech owed, that is 150% of their tech. It is a bigger percentage, and brings them to effectively double Athen's reps, and is without question pretty hard. However double does not equal a 12x, or 36x as initially claimed, which is what I was refuting to start with.

This man speaks truth and wisdom.

I know this is old but: 12x worse? They may be worse, but that's an exageration. Let's do some quick math real quick. $7,000,000,000/3,000,000=2,333.333, round up to 2,335 for an even number. Multiply by 100 for the 3mil/100 tech exchange rate and you get 233,500. Add that to the 300,000 for 533,500 tech. New Pacific Order currently has ~450,000 tech. The reparations equivocate to ~120% of what they have. Athens had to pay ~90% of what they had. This makes the NPO's reparations proportionally 33% worse than what they applied to Athens. Note that Athens was not the agressor in the war that they had to pay those reps in, so a 33% markup seems fair. Also consider it's not hard to move money and tech in the same slot to speed the process along. Tech terms are harder to meet than monetary terms, which is why they have been favored by alliances since someone came up with the bright idea to start extorting tech.