Fall Grau OOC

[Lynneth]

Go do it.

Also, issues with Martens' post: No numbers. He doesn't say anything about troop-numbers he has at the borders, gun specs, et cetera.

Without those, I cannot proceed. I have provided at least my soldier numbers.

However, I don't like that he assumes I'm advancing in dense formations. That's basically godmodding, because I say what formation my guys are fighting in. And it's certainly not dense. The map merely shows the approximate paths the troops are to take.

Now, I have exact numbers.

600,000 soldiers (Standard issue equipment)

60,000 of those mechanised

6,000 APCs (both kinds of APCs I have)

6,000 tanks (3A1 Leopard)

900+ AA pieces (missiles, usually, with Radar, IR and other detection capabilities)

6,500 artillery pieces (2,000 PzH 2000, rest split by the other artillery guns)

80 bombers (organised in 7 squadrons)

350 Air-superiority fighters (organised in 30 squadrons)

100 CAS fighter/bombers (org in 9 squadrons)

I ask Martens to make a similar list, say where these forces are exactly and where exactly his defensive lines are (map, please), so we can do this properly.

That's all for now.

Less vagueness, please, Martens.

[Californian]

I'm arguing ( I agree with above)

nom nom nom nom

[Lynneth]

Something I forgot:

I can have 1,550,000 troops ingame (right now actually more, but that's through an event)

15,500 tanks.

I have 6,455.29 tech, which translates into a Tech efficiency of 2.291.

Martens bought 57,476 men ingame, and according to his population he can have less. Let's go with what he actually has.

Translates into 574,760 soldiers

5,748 tanks

He has ~926 tech, which puts him into the default TE of 1. More than 500 tech, less than 1500.

I'm sending 600,000 men and 6,000 tanks (as well as the less tangible artillery, APCs, etc)

Through my TE, my troops can theoretically prevail even if Martens sent many more troops than he has. Up to 1,374,635 men, in fact. Same with tanks, divided by ten.

Anything I'm missing..?

Ah, yes. Requesting GMs to make rolls.

OOC: Need 2 rolls for that; one to see if I disrupt military comms, one for the country. I have 90% odds, and I'd gladly accept 70-60% odds (or worse) for my side on the "entire country" roll.

Also requesting a roll for >>Cruise missiles were launched towards all known nuclear facilities of Deutschland, trying to prevent a nuclear first strike.<<

If I forgot anything else, remind me of it, please.

[Lynneth]

Adding to the calculations of the previous post:

Cody Seb.

IG, 1,296.07 tech

Can have 402,204 soldiers, due to max of 40,220.4 ingame.

4,022 tanks

TE of 1.

I have 350,000 men and 3,500 tanks at the border with him, in addition to ~1,500 artillery guns, APCs for 4 full divisions (~4,000 APCs), as well as about 400 AA vehicles and 305 planes (organised in 26 squadrons), mostly Air-Sup fighters and bombers.

Add to that my AA wonder, missile defenses (those can shoot planes, too) and maybe SDI (though that's specialised in killing nukes, its weaponry can surely bring down a plane, as well), and he will have a hard time gaining air-superiority. On the ground, my forces are superior, anyways, due to the technological advantage.

Also, for Martens:

Refer to this post for most of my vehicles:

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?s...t&p=1629753

But have the tank pic, anyways.

(clickable, as usual)

Don't forget to read the specs, as well.

[Cody Seb]

In all honesty, do we really want to open the pandora's box that SDI's can target planes? That's going to open up a whole new level of BS from now on if we let that happen. Anyway, as of right now I'm sending troops to Deutschland, I'm not invading through your border.

[Lynneth]

In all honesty, do we really want to open the pandora's box that SDI's can target planes? That's going to open up a whole new level of BS from now on if we let that happen. Anyway, as of right now I'm sending troops to Deutschland, I'm not invading through your border.

Regarding the SDI: Yeah, I know.

I'd really like to complicate everything about war in CNRP, such as allowing technology to influence SDI- and missile defence efficiency, letting SDI and MD kill planes like normal AA, with more accuracy but firing less often and a lot more. But blah, if you guys don't want to go there, I won't, either.

Also, how many troops are you sending to Deutschland? If you send all of them, it's stupid, because that's inviting an invasion.

[Cody Seb]

Regarding the SDI: Yeah, I know.

I'd really like to complicate everything about war in CNRP, such as allowing technology to influence SDI- and missile defence efficiency, letting SDI and MD kill planes like normal AA, with more accuracy but firing less often and a lot more. But blah, if you guys don't want to go there, I won't, either.

Also, how many troops are you sending to Deutschland? If you send all of them, it's stupid, because that's inviting an invasion.

I'm not sending them all, I haven't really decided yet. I'll post it up when I actually move in. But I get what you're saying. The SDI question isn't really that pertinent anyhow, because I'm not marching onto your soil anyway.

[Sarah Tintagyl]

SDI's would be nice if they could stay as nukes only. Not only for the sanity of Ty, Elrich, and myself, but that there is so much gray area. If you guys really really want to do something like this, we can, but if that's the case I want to talk to both Lynneth and Martens about it as well. But as you guys said, all up to you.

[Sargun II]

Question.

Why can Martens use civilian planes as CMs/bombers/whatever?

[Kaiser Martens]

SDI? We better keep it that way, or soon people will use them to down everything that moves. Plus, if SDIs do something other than shooting down nukes, then we'd have people arguing in favor of destructible SDIs...lets not go there.

Regarding my comment on shooting the tanks wherever they may seem weaker, after looking at the picture I'll have my guys try to fire at the spot between the chassis and the turret. Second-option targets will be the tracks, for Mobility Kills. In urban combat, the machineguns on top will also be targetted.

My bad. You're not advancing in a tight formation. Then, we just keep firing at the numbers which are close enough, within range, instead of targetting the "bulk" of the troops, we just target those who happen to be closer. Save for when I said that my artillery had first targetted your artillery.

There's the relevant fortifications. In reality, all of the German Border is fortified to a reasonable degree, but the ones I marked on the map are much better fortifications. Lübeck's fortifications are better than the average border fortifications, but they're in a different color from the southern ones because the fortifications on the south are really built in such an extreme manner that if I would try to fortify the rest of the country that way I'd end up bankrupting myself, plus it'd take a long time. Then the green lines are somewhat-improvised fortifications which are ment to delay HRE movements, but are not a serious hinderance. Finally, there's Berlin heavily fortified. Nordheim and Iceland have other fortifications which right now are irrelevant.

Anyway the main fortification consists of two extremely thick walls lined up with antitank turrets, machinegun turrets, etc. There is a gate, which is a massive piece of metal. The gate was hit, now it's stuck on its current position and cannot be opened. Behind this is a buffer area and then a second "line" identical to the first. In the buffer area are mines, barbed wire, the usual. Some czech hedgehogs too. There is FLAK and SAM, but about half of the FLAK was hit at the start.

The country has many scattered FLAK and SAM stations. The whole airspace is covered, however most of the FLAK equipment is outdated, and some is only for show. I don't know how many pieces this would be all in all, it's just a matter of taking some time to clear a specific area before sending airplanes there. This shouldn't be a problem, it just takes a small air force to get the SAMs to show their position and then CMs, right?

For the AF movements, I did mention using all of my squadrons at once. 80.

I am using aside from the Line itself, artillery which I had lined up just behind it. These are 210mm artillery pieces. Probably around 2000. They are static artillery. Since the FLAK had been hit, I sent mobile AA. Those are older armored vehicles with rocketry attached, similar to Lynneth's. They'll be around 500.

As for the crazy civilian kamikaze aircraft, those will be...maybe 30?

I did not deploy anything else because he's only fighting against the Fortification itself, which is armed on its own right. The only other things I field are the specified AA and the artillery pieces (In order to be able to hit the enemies at the other side of the fortifications). My army proper will be deployed to fight him once that the Line is broken through. For now all that they could do was run around being hit by planes and artillery without being actually able to shoot the enemy anyway.

I have 50% odd for my spies. So...lets see. I'll try to use them to disrupt his military communications.

Lastly, you cannot use your spies to destroy my nukes. Nukes are only ruled by IG nukes. If you want my nukes to be gone without being used or without being halted by a SDI, you'll have to spy on me ingame.

I think that's all for now.

[Kaiser Martens]

Why can Martens use civilian planes as CMs/bombers/whatever?

You mean as Kamikazes? Why can I do it?

Well, because it can be done. I can do it because I can do it.

[Sargun II]

You mean as Kamikazes? Why can I do it?

Well, because it can be done. I can do it because I can do it.

I can also create more than twenty nuclear weapons at higher MT than I'm currently allowed to, but that doesn't mean it counts for anything.

[Michael McBride]

I've used civilian ships as troop transports before I had military ships... are you saying I wasn't allowed to do that either?

[Lynneth]

I've used civilian ships as troop transports before I had military ships... are you saying I wasn't allowed to do that either?

Troop transports are fine imo, but civilian kamikaze planes are weapons. Transports aren't.

[Sargun II]

I've used civilian ships as troop transports before I had military ships... are you saying I wasn't allowed to do that either?

Yes, because transporting troops using civilian ships is the same as getting thousands of free CMs and bombers?

[Markus Wilding]

You mean as Kamikazes? Why can I do it?

Well, because it can be done. I can do it because I can do it.

I can declare war on Viniland and Tahoe, but does that mean I should do it? Hell no. Methinks a GM ruling needs to be thrown up for using civillian planes as kamikazes...

[SpacingOutMan]

Honestly, if you can have civilian aircraft and Boeing 747's, you should be able to use them as kamikazes in my opinion... it's not like they just disappear.

[Subtleknifewielder]

Honestly, if you can have civilian aircraft and Boeing 747's, you should be able to use them as kamikazes in my opinion... it's not like they just disappear.

True. And Martens did state a small figure, not a ridiculously large one.

[Kaiser Martens]

For this I go back to the origins of CNRP...it was not about stats, but instead writing and creativity. I am being creative by using resources readily available on my nation to fight a much stronger enemy.

I did make one precaution though. I made sure to send in those aircraft in while Lynneth's airforce was engaged onto by large amounts of AA plus my actual Airforce, since otherwise, in different conditions, these planes would not be fast enough to crash into their targets. It's a DESPERATE tactic after all.

[Uberstein]

Creativity doesn't mean you can fight a war with vagueness and borderline godmodding (Though that is again an issue of not giving specific numbers so it is more of "this can LEAD to godmodding" and not "you're godmodding at the moment"). You can still use stats and be creative.

Edited November 25, 2009 by BaronUberstein

[Subtleknifewielder]

Ubie, I don't think that in this case martens is being deliberately vague.

This is the first time, really, that he's been surprise attacked.

[Uberstein]

Ubie, I don't think that in this case martens is being deliberately vague.

This is the first time, really, that he's been surprise attacked.

But if it's expected of Lubeck to write where his troops are specifically, why not Martens? Both are surprise wars, and I hope that you aren't supporting double standards.

[Bundeskanzler]

I have a question: Is there a limit to how many missiles you can RP?

If there isn't, I do not see any problem with the kamikaze stuff. You can just say they are cruise missiles.

[Markus Wilding]

Cruise missiles are equal to what you have IG.

[Il Terra Di Agea]

Cruise missiles are equal to what you have IG.

Not quite, I though we had a ruling a while back that IG cruise missiles equaled non-nuclear ICBMs a while back.