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The Terms that CoJ Accepted


Schattenmann

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OsRavan has suddenly and inexplicably started claiming that it is CoJ which has rejected peace, not ODN who has refused it, in flat contradiction to all reality. Because some people are not as smart as others, rather than depend on everyone to understand that Os just now started making this claim after taking a public punch on the nose and it's fishy, I will provide here for you all the exact terms which OsRavan proposed himself, and which CoJ accepted.

<Schattenmann> You rang

<OsRavan[ODN]> mmmm?

<Schattenmann> <TCK> you need to talk to odn as well

<Schattenmann> <TCK> they want a lulz term

<Schattenmann> <Schattenmann> About what?

<Schattenmann> <Schattenmann> Oh

<OsRavan[ODN]> ohh yes i had pointed out to tck that coj (and legion though thats neither here nor there) hadnt ironed out their terms with odn yet

<OsRavan[ODN]> in particular the lulz term

<Schattenmann> We will be happy to meet ODN in the middle as was done here: http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=55878

<Schattenmann> 4. Sunstar shall issue a statement in reply to this post. The nature of that statement shall be a compliment to Schattenman on his prowess as a news reporter and the elegance of his bow tie. The statement must include the following words: muscular, charming, monochromatic, ointment, and platypus.

<Schattenmann> 5. Schattenman must also issue a similar statement. This statement shall compliment Sunstar on his superior warring abilities and the quality of his fusion energy production. It must include the words: navel, porcupine, and quartzy.

<OsRavan[ODN]> bassicaly what im looking for is surrender, no re-entry if that is relavent, and some lulz term im happy to compromise on what. something orangey though. a haiku, a review. whatever

<OsRavan[ODN]> hmmm no im not good with that. by returning the favor it makes it seem like a pure white peace. im not trying to make you slave at this. ;:shrugs;: it can be as simple as a haiku

<OsRavan[ODN]> i suppose it doesnt have to be written either if you can think of a suitable alternative

<OsRavan[ODN]> assuming writing is the issue

<Schattenmann> And why shouldn't it be a white peace?

<OsRavan[ODN]> because as far as im concerned we won. if you dont feel we have won then clearly, from our perspective, we have more warring still to do

<OsRavan[ODN]> im not looking to rape you with terms. As I think should be clear

<OsRavan[ODN]> we are not fans of overwhelming, cruel, or draconian reps. but we are beleivers that there are winners and losers in war and that needs to be recognized

<Schattenmann> No. only to embarrass us

<Schattenmann> There is no one that does not already recognize that' we've lost

<OsRavan[ODN]> its only embaressing if you make a big deal out of it. it can and should be fun

<OsRavan[ODN]> im happy to work with you to find a version that will not be embaressing

<Schattenmann> I agree, and I think you should have as much fun as CoJ

<OsRavan[ODN]> if that means writing less, the subject matter you write on, something that isnt written at all. whatever

<OsRavan[ODN]> all that im willing to work with you on so you dont feel embaressed

<OsRavan[ODN]> if you dont want to write anything in particular maybe you all write in orange font for a week when posting on the owf?

<OsRavan[ODN]> ;;shrugs;; feel free to throw some ideas out at me

<OsRavan[ODN]> i think you will find that most neutral parties will find the odn term offers to you rather reasonable

<Schattenmann> Os, ODN is not entitled to anything. You have suffered no losses, you have nothing to make up for except maye time you spent writing a DoW that was pointless to begin with. There is no reason to ask for anything, and there is no reason for CoJ to give you anything

<Schattenmann> As such, since you want us to line up and all shake hands little league-style with some goofing off, I see no harm in doing that with ODN as a partner

<OsRavan[ODN]> its not our fault your side... primarily legion in this case... chose not to fight. Nor am i trying to pressure you to leave the battlefield. if you want to keep fighting until you feel we have 'suffered' enough then by all means go ahead. You will find ODN wont care in the slightest. If you want to resolve this then you can work with me. Youve heard what we need. Im quite happy to work

<OsRavan[ODN]> with you on the details so it is not something you find embaressing

<Schattenmann> An admission of defeat is proof enough of its reality, anything else is toppings

<OsRavan[ODN]> throw out suggestions of something fun coj doesnt mind doing

<Schattenmann> CoJ will do anything the ODN will do

<OsRavan[ODN]> ODN in your situation would be more then willing to do what i am asking of you. but we are not in your situation

<Schattenmann> Deliver us a crate of oranges and we'll write a haiku about them

<OsRavan[ODN]> what does delivering you a crate of oranges entail?

<Schattenmann> X. The ODN will deliver to CoJ one crate of oranges Y. CoJ will compose a haiku about said oranges

<OsRavan[ODN]> yes but what in a pracitcal sense does delivering you a crate of oranges entail?

<OsRavan[ODN]> i.e a link to the oranges?

<Schattenmann> Post a picture of a crate of oranges in reply one and we'll post a haiku in reply 2

<OsRavan[ODN]> so you post a haiku on a picture of oranges we post in the peace thread?

<OsRavan[ODN]> im fine with that

<Schattenmann> See how easy that was

<OsRavan[ODN]> i could say the same to you

<OsRavan[ODN]> are you going to throw a fuss over the word surrender in these terms like whats their face?

<OsRavan[ODN]> or can we consider this done pending the odn senate approving and you getting terms with mk

<Schattenmann> Why would I care about temporal terminology when Justitia always wins?

<OsRavan[ODN]> its that attitude that makes people insist on lulz terms you know, right/

<Schattenmann> People's own egos make them insist on lulz terms

<OsRavan[ODN]> the reason lulz terms are so common is because without them too many losing alliances then go back and claim they 'won' due to a lack of terms

<OsRavan[ODN]> thats the historical reason why they are so common these days

<OsRavan[ODN]> ill do an official draft so you can look at what was posted and give your ok though

<Schattenmann> CoJ has offered to surrender three times since hostilities began and ODN has refused each one pending total peace. If that's still your assertion then sure, the negotiations may be over but the war is not until it is

<OsRavan[ODN]> yes and yes

<OsRavan[ODN]> we will not even be voting on your terms until after you have secured a perliminary agreement with mk

<Schattenmann> As long as you understand that and we don't get a bunch of "you attacked after our agreement!" if we launch further attacks

<OsRavan[ODN]> not at all, attack away

<OsRavan[ODN]> though btw since we are giving warnings.

<OsRavan[ODN]> i should also warn you that if you actually follow through on your threats to TFE or our applicant aa these terms may be changed

<Schattenmann> Sure, you've made that clear and we acknowledge it. Besides, the 25th day has done more damage to TFE than we could have

<Schattenmann> And the spam to App was just that ;)

<OsRavan[ODN]> thats to be expected in any invasion alliance. theyve been moderatly sucessfull in meeting my expectations so far

<OsRavan[ODN]> most expectations i should say

<Schattenmann> Make the other TFE merge into them

<Schattenmann> wait

<Schattenmann> that's TPE

<OsRavan[ODN]> tpe are good people and a very solid alliance

<OsRavan[ODN]> i dont think you need to worry about them losing many members to disbanding

<Schattenmann> I don't have any TPE-wide opinions

<Schattenmann> KingEd on the other hand should definitely have waited until after TPE was bigger than CoJ to call CoJ an irrelevant micro

<OsRavan[ODN]> heh tpe doesnt have much fear in them

<Schattenmann> Not as a matter of fear, just as a matter of not being silly

<Schattenmann> You've gotta stop reading everything I say as a threat if we're going to make this relationship work :3

<OsRavan[ODN]> heh, I would be surprised if we develop much of a healthy relationship. No offense attended. I don't read everything you say as a threat so much as I do a potential propoganda attempt on the OWF.

<OsRavan[ODN]> potential thread for down the line take a look before i share it with others

<OsRavan[ODN]> After long months of war, ODN is pleased to announce a cessation of hostilities with CoJ based on the below terms.

<OsRavan[ODN]> 1) CoJ admits defeat and surrenders to ODN

<OsRavan[ODN]> 2) CoJ will not re-enter the current conflict or any wars resulting from the current conflict (this includes the NPO-Doomhouse front). This also includes sending aid to Alliances at war.

<OsRavan[ODN]> 3) CoJ shall write a haiku praising these ODN oranges: Fresh Oranges for CoJ

<OsRavan[ODN]> term 2 will obviously be removed if there is no war going on when it comes time to post this

<OsRavan[ODN]> is what i posted above good with you?

<Schattenmann> I think it would make more sense as I prposed it, <Schattenmann> X. The ODN will deliver to CoJ one crate of oranges Y. CoJ will compose a haiku about said oranges

<OsRavan[ODN]> its simpler to do as i suggested. if you need the world odn delivered oranges i can do that

<Schattenmann> Thus 3) ODN shall send one crate of oranges to CoJ 4. CoJ shall send ODN a haiku about those oranges

<OsRavan[ODN]> 3) ODN sends CoJ a crate of oranges: Fresh Oranges for CoJ and expects a haiku praising them in return.

<Schattenmann> Since you don't want it to sound like white peace, you could even get all snarky and say "ODN shall send a crate of oranges to the starving nations of CoJ" or something condescending

<OsRavan[ODN]> no one is trying to be condescending though

<OsRavan[ODN]> the edited one i put above work for you?

<Schattenmann> Alright then 3) ODN sends CoJ a crate of oranges: Fresh Oranges for CoJ and in return CoJ will write a haiku about them.

<OsRavan[ODN]> fair enough.

<OsRavan[ODN]> Understand by the bye that the rest of our gov will need to debate and discuss this andd my word is not fully binding

<Schattenmann> Sure

<OsRavan[ODN]> i assume you understand that actually considering you already went to the senate ::amuswed::

<Schattenmann> So, two weeks? :P

<OsRavan[ODN]> whenever you work things out with mk

<Schattenmann> ...that was a Senate joke

While CoJ understood that as the head of a representative domcracy, Os could not guarantee this is what the end terms would look like, we also understood that it was the Senate that would look over them. Os confirmed this <OsRavan[ODN]> Understand by the bye that the rest of our gov will need to debate and discuss this andd my word is not fully binding

Instead, OsRavan posted the terms for his entire membership--340 people ill-acquainted with everything that has been going on--not "the rest of gov." The result of this was exactly what anyone might expect, people with axes to grind started asking for things, and the squeaky wheel got greased.

blog1.gif

blog2.gif

OsRavan now claims that he must honor the will of people like this, but what about the rest?

lulz01.png

phryss_app2.png

No, OsRavan is representing the segment of thought that he wants, nothing more, nothing less.

After 8 days of alliance-wide discussions, Os returned to CoJ with this answer:

<OsRavan[ODN]> so i took what we talked about back to the alliance. ::shrugs;; I under-estimated the dislike with your and coj's conduct in this war though. The feeling was very strong that an apology to TFE is needed. The goal is not to publicly humiliate you. It can be a private apology with no one outside aware. But we do need an apology. Or atleast an admitance that your behavior to them (and our applicant aa btw) was inappropriate

<OsRavan[ODN]> on a side note if you want to drop the lulz term we can. IT was also decided that those sort of terms are reserved for opponents we consider to have behaved honorably on the field of battle. Such as in this war, for us, MCXA, Legion, etc. That does not include you in our perspective, and that term can be dropped if you so desire

--In fact, the lulz term was dropped because Os's membership told him it was stupid, just like I told him.--

<Yawoo> Yeah, no it wasn't

<Schattenmann> Why do you think that it was inappropriate?

<OsRavan[ODN]> you threatening our applicants and our proctectorate? Empty threats I might add. I found it lacking because, finding yourself in a losing war, you proceeded to attempt to spin propoganda and verbally bully neutral parties in order to mdake up for your lack on the battlefield. Now you are certainly allowed to do this as you are allowed to do anything. But for every action there is consequences. Your repeated threats and

<Yawoo> Since I was the one speaking with them, no I did not threaten them

<Yawoo> I warned them

<Schattenmann> What's neutral about a party that is aiding your war effort?

<OsRavan[ODN]> threats were most certainly issued to both the applicant AA and to our protectorate by both CoJ and 64 on the OWF and via IRC. I will also add 1) they were tech dealing with nations not at war not 'aiding' a war effort. 2) We do not recognize any moral ambiguity in tech dealing while at war. A stance we have extended towards our enemies in multiple wars now. 3) Regardless of your feelings on the matter, it does

<OsRavan[ODN]> not excuse your threats or hostile actions. And tbh I saw you operating not out of any conviction but out of an attempt to sow disunity between us and our friends

<OsRavan[ODN]> You have clearly demonstrated in the course of the war that your goal was to get an edge. No matter what. No matter whether your actions would be considered appropriate or not. And again, I can respect that atttidude. But when it does not pay off, it comes with consequences

The spam in question?

To: lazyox From: Schattenmann Date: 4/21/2011 7:45:43 PM

Subject: Impending attack

Message: I wish to inform you that the ODN is currently involved in an unjust war of aggression against my alliance Cult of Justitia.

I feel it only fair to you to notify you of this point because I imagine that when ODN's recruiters sent you promises of prosperity, growth and aid, they probably did not tell you about the war, and as an ODN applicant, you are subject to attack by CoJ; target lists have been made.

CoJ nations are small because of the long war, yours are small because they are new--ODN's large nations won't be able to counter-declare on us, we are out of their range; they cannot help you.

We don't want to attack nations that have been tricked into joining ODN without knowledge of the war. Attacks will not commence for 4 days, anyone that has removed "ODN Applicant" as their alliance affiliation by then will not be attacked.

You can find many honest alliances to join here: http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showforum=24

Any alliance can teach you, only ODN promises war.

Highly inappropriate to be sure.

I have explained my reluctance to apologize for this spam and for my conversations with The Flood Empire on the natural fact that is an act of war to aid an alliance at warvery clearly:

Apologize for telling a new alliance that aiding another alliance at war is an act of war? Why should I? Admit that it was inappropriate to approach a sovereign alliance about their aid to another alliance at war? It wasn't. Admit it was inappropriate to spam ODN Applicant with a message that said we consider them part of ODN and liable to attack? Why? None of those actions is inappropriate or some brand new thing I made up; they're are statements of fact, and I cannot apologize for fact or make fact inappropriate by stating it.

Despite this inability to apologize because we have done nothing wrong, when the Doomhouse coalition presented this article as part of the coalition surrender, Cult of Justitia endorsed the terms.

Apology

CoJ recognizes that their actions in this war, including the infiltration of a spy into ODN, and the threatening/misleading of the ODN applicant pool and ODN protectorate were wrong. CoJ hereby apologies for said behavior.

This article, and the rest of the document, have been agreed to by every alliance on NPO's side of the war, but delays still continues in spite of our willingness to these absurdities because alliances on Doomhouse's side keep changing the terms--after not participating in negotiations for 2 months, LOST showed up with last minute revisions after NPO-side signatures were collected. On and on. As far as CoJ is concerned the terms are made and agreed upon.

All this notwithstanding, Cult of Justitia made official inquiries to surrender on March 9, March 24th, and April 14th which were all flatly denied. Meanwhile, during this period, when asked by members of his government whether anyone had tried to surrender, OsRavan replied in the negative, assuring them that CoJ had no desire to surrender, keeping his members and government in the dark about the truth. Now he continues in his habit of lies about our intentions with these easily-disproven claims that CoJ has refused to surrender.

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It's curious to see that Real Life values (transparency, accountability etc.) play such a big role in CN that My Dear Shantamantan (MDS)can use them to successfully remain a thorn in the side of a much bigger and more powerful (in-game) adversary.

The democratic form of ODN is being exploited, short term, against them; or rather, against their government.

Long term MDS is instead probably doing them a favour (ODN government included)... Time will tell.

At any rate it's fun for the game: I look forward to see how this situation unfolds (thanks Schatt for your usual quality entertainment. :) )

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It's curious to see that Real Life values (transparency, accountability etc.) play such a big role in CN that My Dear Shantamantan (MDS)can use them to successfully remain a thorn in the side of a much bigger and more powerful (in-game) adversary.The democratic form of ODN is being exploited, short term, against them; or rather, against their government.Long term MDS is instead probably doing them a favour (ODN government included)... Time will tell.At any rate it's fun for the game: I look forward to see how this situation unfolds (thanks Schatt for your usual quality entertainment. :) )

We at ODN will just have to endure these "leaks" for we will not compromise our open democratic governance because of such petty nuisances. In the end TWiN and blogposts at least for me have so far been more amusing than "damaging".

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ODN's governance has been democratic for a long time; open though?No, not hardly.

I don't know where you are pulling that out of (ass perhaps?). I was just regular member for a month and now got into gov and I can't say that much goes behind closed doors the GA has any need or interest to know. Of course there are certain matters that must be handled in private as anyone with half a brain understands though.

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I think the spying part is a worse than ODN's alleged injustice seeing as it is an action taken outside of the game itself.

We know where that leads pretty good :awesome:

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ODN's governance has been democratic for a long time; open though?No, not hardly.
I don't know where you are pulling that out of (ass perhaps?). I was just regular member for a month and now got into gov and I can't say that much goes behind closed doors the GA has any need or interest to know. Of course there are certain matters that must be handled in private as anyone with half a brain understands though.

A regular member that was a leader in INT a while ago. Thats the difference between someone who joined CN a month ago compared to you who has been in CN for uh well I assume years?

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A regular member that was a leader in INT a while ago. Thats the difference between someone who joined CN a month ago compared to you who has been in CN for uh well I assume years?

FC is a crafty SOB. He honed his skills of deceit and manipulation in INT, and now uses them to great effect in ODN. I fear for our children. I fear for our children's children.

I fear for the future.

-Craig

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I think the spying part is a worse than ODN's alleged injustice seeing as it is an action taken outside of the game itself.We know where that leads pretty good :awesome:

That's hilarious. Spying on an alliance is OOC. :rolleyes:

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I think the spying part is a worse than ODN's alleged injustice seeing as it is an action taken outside of the game itself.We know where that leads pretty good :awesome:

Spying IC content for IC reasons on IC forums is certainly part of "the game itself".

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ODN's governance has been democratic for a long time; open though?No, not hardly.
I don't know where you are pulling that out of (ass perhaps?). I was just regular member for a month and now got into gov and I can't say that much goes behind closed doors the GA has any need or interest to know. Of course there are certain matters that must be handled in private as anyone with half a brain understands though.
A regular member that was a leader in INT a while ago. Thats the difference between someone who joined CN a month ago compared to you who has been in CN for uh well I assume years?

I hardly see what that has to do with the openness of ODN governance though. I didn't have any special access to the gov sections in ODN boards before getting elected even if I am an ancient member of CN community.

True enough that I might have easier time grasping matters than a new player but that doesn't mean the new player doesn't have the equal chance to put things together in his head as I did.

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I think the spying part is a worse than ODN's alleged injustice seeing as it is an action taken outside of the game itself.We know where that leads pretty good :awesome:

It's a good thing we spied on a bunch of stuff that is "outside the game" or we'd really be in trouble.

Spying IC content using is certainly not a part of the game when using OOC methods.

I guess that means you'll be getting rid of everything but your spam boards and communicating solely by in-game messages?

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ODN's governance has been democratic for a long time; open though?No, not hardly.
I don't know where you are pulling that out of (ass perhaps?). I was just regular member for a month and now got into gov and I can't say that much goes behind closed doors the GA has any need or interest to know. Of course there are certain matters that must be handled in private as anyone with half a brain understands though.

Ah yes, the good old "They don't need to know what we're doing" argument. Works well at proving your openness.

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ODN's governance has been democratic for a long time; open though?No, not hardly.
I don't know where you are pulling that out of (ass perhaps?). I was just regular member for a month and now got into gov and I can't say that much goes behind closed doors the GA has any need or interest to know. Of course there are certain matters that must be handled in private as anyone with half a brain understands though.
A regular member that was a leader in INT a while ago. Thats the difference between someone who joined CN a month ago compared to you who has been in CN for uh well I assume years?
I hardly see what that has to do with the openness of ODN governance though. I didn't have any special access to the gov sections in ODN boards before getting elected even if I am an ancient member of CN community.True enough that I might have easier time grasping matters than a new player but that doesn't mean the new player doesn't have the equal chance to put things together in his head as I did.

It doesnt but where you have credentials new players have none. Since you have proven yourself to be a better canidate then someone who just recently joined you have more chance. As would anyone else who posts here. Hell if schattenman joined ODN he would have more chance. Its about experience and recognition versus none and a nobody

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