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Dark Templar Reparations


Goose

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I was asking for 30,000 in technology in reparations from any source DT could get it. Legacy agreed to accept 20,000 and 10,000 was to be sent to The Commonwealth. This was met with threats from DT for an expanded war. DT optionally entered into war with The Commonwealth and her allies. There are consequences for optionally going to war with people, and those consequences should be expected when you enter a war with no obligation to do so. Their great loyalty to LoSS had them come asking for peace with us after a week of war, with no consideration for whether LoSS got peace or not.

Throughout the peace process I've consistently lowered the amount and severity of the reparations demanded only to have DT lower their offer again and again. They've made a concerted effort to smear me and The Commonwealth to the world with half-truths and lies. They've sent messages to our membership urging them to revolt against the government. They've offered their ally's declaration on NPO (unasked for and unwanted by The Commonwealth) in return for peace. They've threatened us and our allies with escalation by allies that have agreed to not re-enter the conflict and those as yet uninvolved. They've been underhanded and dishonest throughout the entire peace process. This is why I am demanding reparations and will continue to do so.

I am done backing down. I am done being threatened. I am done negotiating. I am done being fair and reasonable to those that would not return the kindness. If you wish to escalate things, do it and watch your alliances burn to the ground. If you want to smear me, it has been done. If you want your allies to declare war on NPO, I don't care if they do or not. The Commonwealth stands.

The terms stand at 30,000 technology paid by DT nations paid to the combined nations of Legacy and The Commonwealth. During the period that DT is paying reparations they will not carry standing navies or nuclear arsenals. No more negotiating. No more middle-men. No more anything. Surrender or burn.

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We haven't abandoned them. We're still here and we're still fighting. Hacking? It could of been just as much a person with mod rights taking those screenshots. So until you actually no for sure it was hacked it's kind of up in the air as to the means they came from. And as far as the information of those screenshots, they only confirmed what people and some of your fellow members were saying already out in OWF about not liking the reps. It's not like I went to extremes of extorting tech from your alliance. I offered a way for your government to step and do what all of their allies have been asking them to do, and come out looking better then they have been during all this. They didn't take it so be it. They didn't like the other offers then those are still on the table and will be, but the last one from CSN will never be accepted in it's current form.

You were planning on abandoning them.

Actually a proxy IP was found on my account. I don't use proxies and I was asleep at the time it signed in and the screen shots were posted. So no, it wasn't anyone in our alliance leaking things. None of our allies are asking us to give you white peace or apologize to anyone.

What, exactly, is wrong with the offer in its current form?

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Well for once it looks like Liz got on the same page with the rest of us. Hmm...

Way to look away from the entire post to make a stupid comment. From your comments about TiTaN and the first negotiations, it seems you're the ones not on the same page.

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We haven't abandoned them. We're still here and we're still fighting. Hacking? It could of been just as much a person with mod rights taking those screenshots. So until you actually no for sure it was hacked it's kind of up in the air as to the means they came from. And as far as the information of those screenshots, they only confirmed what people and some of your fellow members were saying already out in OWF about not liking the reps. It's not like I went to extremes of extorting tech from your alliance. I offered a way for your government to step and do what all of their allies have been asking them to do, and come out looking better then they have been during all this. They didn't take it so be it. They didn't like the other offers then those are still on the table and will be, but the last one from CSN will never be accepted in it's current form.

We have pretty definite proof it was hacking, based on forum logs. Funny that the hacks stopped when the membership opinion shifted completely to supporting reps.

Accepting white peace after demanding terms, and sticking to them may make, as you suggest, us "Look Good" and "save us face" on the outside to those who have lost whatever little respect they used to have for our alliance, but internally it would be much more damaging, and that offer will never be accepted in its current form. As a government member I thought you would have realize this dilemma we would be faced with, or perhaps you thought we were not intelligent enough to realize this. maybe it was ignorance, whatever the case is, I believe at least Goose has made it clear white peace is not acceptable at this time, and I am sure Sarm has said something similar.

It seems no matter what we do, our terms will never be acceptable, and that is really unfortunate for you and your alliance because I believe this blog is basically saying, we are at our wits end, this is Legacy and CSN's final offer.

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Sure it's negotiating if you want things to go down instead of going up, and you had additional days of attack happening as well. Like anyone would want to pay out more have less to pay it with. Sorry it don't work that way.

And how did that work out for you? Did that protect your membership and reduce the cost of this war to them?

I'm glad you don't need pitty. The reason the offer went from 30k to white peace was simple. Your gov walked out. When you do that it takes any offers off the table. No matter who put them up there to be agreed on. If a person needs to think about it they say so and talks continue later after the alliance has talked about it and comes back with either agreeing to them or a different offer. That didn't happen as stated by Goose that he had no intent on accepting the offer. So we had a new offer for him to work from in finding middle ground. He could of offered up something but didn't. He walked out again. Since then there has been 3 different offers presented and 1 did get pondered by your gov but we're still at no agreement.

Hmmm... that's not the reason you gave at the time? That's the reason you said the original offer was no longer on the table. The reason you said it was white peace was because you were dumb enough to take an edited screen shot at face value. Admittedly, the "dumb enough" part is not a direct quote.

Don't need to as those are not related to CSN.

LoSS's peace is not related to CSN? Hmmmm... interesting. Don't worry, everyone is totally buying this. They're going to ignore the insult to LoSS, the fact you didn't include them in the negotiations but claimed you did, and the fact that you never at all mentioned them in any positive light in all of the negotiation and they're just going to accept your claim that is complete contradiction to that. That's a reasonable expectation.

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I rather burn then rep out CSN, especially since I can take down a whole lot of CSN nations with me :awesome:

At your level it's easy to rebuild people, so.. OK. Though, when reps are agreed to you'll also be one of the people paying out, I'm sure. Either that or you'll go back to TIO.

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We haven't abandoned them. We're still here and we're still fighting. Hacking? It could of been just as much a person with mod rights taking those screenshots. So until you actually no for sure it was hacked it's kind of up in the air as to the means they came from. And as far as the information of those screenshots, they only confirmed what people and some of your fellow members were saying already out in OWF about not liking the reps. It's not like I went to extremes of extorting tech from your alliance. I offered a way for your government to step and do what all of their allies have been asking them to do, and come out looking better then they have been during all this. They didn't take it so be it. They didn't like the other offers then those are still on the table and will be, but the last one from CSN will never be accepted in it's current form.

Seriously, does anyone buy this anymore? We know whose account was hacked and we know that it was the result of someone using a proxy. We know for sure that the accounts were taken using one account on our forums and posted using another on the OWF. Seriously, your arguments are pathetic. You and I both know that the account was hacked. Do you really think in a thread where we've regularly shown you to be dishonest, it adds to your credibility to pretend you're not aware that those screenshots are the result of our forums being hacked. Again, learn to take a little personal responsibility.

And, yes, you didn't need those screenshots. It's just coincidence that once the screenshots came out, you suddenly reversed your offer. You've proven to be an incredible diplomat. Almost anyone could have gotten your alliance out of this war with little damage and little trouble in terms of repercussions. You've managed to get your alliance to hemorrhage NS while not negotiating the reps down at all. You should teach a class.

As for the "abandoning" LoSS, you're still here fighting because you don't have a choice. They're the ones not abandoning you. They can get out whenever they want. Unlike you, that made it a specific clause in their surrender agreement that you would also have to achieved peace before they'll peace out. They're alliance managed to get out of this what they want. Perhaps they just hadn't taken the myworld class on Negotiating. If they'd negotiated like you maybe they could have secured difficult terms and ZI for their membership. Unfortunately, someone told their MoFA that they should be reasonable and recognize defeat and s/he was dumb enough to negotiate from a reasonable position. How silly.

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Gotcha.

Come at me bro.

We have. How's it working out for ya? Only 56K in lost NS and no nukes or navy left. You're doing great. Gosh, I sure hope some of us can war just as successfully. Your alliance is losing over 1K in NS per member every day. We are coming at you. And you're losing. If things keep on the present trajectory, you'll not have enough left to even be an annoyance in about a week.

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What I do not understand is what Dark Templar has done that makes you think you have the right to demand reparations at all from them.

Yes, they honoured an ODP. So did NADC in Karma. You didn't ask them for 40K tech.

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What I do not understand is what Dark Templar has done that makes you think you have the right to demand reparations at all from them.

Yes, they honoured an ODP. So did NADC in Karma. You didn't ask them for 40K tech.

What I'm curious about is what our enemies have done to make them think that we have to allow them to dictate our terms. I find it interesting that they'd even think that their opinion on the matter would be of consideration to us.

What they did was jumped into a war keeping an entire front active and then attempted to jump out without dealing with the consequences of their actions. They didn't apologize for their actions or for their claimed misunderstanding. They didn't show even an ounce of humility regarding the totally ridiculous way in which they entered the war during peace talks. They didn't even show up with the allies from that front that were now still embroiled in a war as a result.

They jumped in and started swinging wildly and when things got to hot for them, they threw up their hands and asked to let them out with no consequences. Funnily enough, we don't encourage that kind of behavior. Unlike DT, we actually consider the consequences of our behavior and we determine what the best approach is for the outcome we desire. We didn't want DT to get away without more damage. We got that. We didn't want DT to get away without a clear defeat. We also got that. We wanted the world to know that you do not attack us or our allies without significant consequences. We got that. And we wanted our membership to know that we respect our name and the treaties we honor enough to ensure that we prevent future attacks of the nature of DT. And we got that.

Their goal was to get out with as little pain as possible. They didn't get it. They wanted white peace. They didn't get that. They wanted to get in cheap hits. They didn't get that. They wanted to get us to disband. They didn't get that. They wanted to make us submit to their terms. They didn't get that.

We accomplished our goals. They didn't. What you should be asking is what made them think they had the leverage to dictate terms to us.

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What I do not understand is what Dark Templar has done that makes you think you have the right to demand reparations at all from them.

Yes, they honoured an ODP. So did NADC in Karma. You didn't ask them for 40K tech.

The moment they came to us and said they wanted us to grant them peace after 6 days of war, and they didn't really care what would happen to LoSS, how they were uncoordinated or whether they got peace, we realized they only attacked Legacy because they deemed them as an easy, isolated target that they could get in on the war with, and then slip away with white peace. I'm sure they didn't even expect us to defend Legacy because they thought our deceleration lead to the treaty being non-chaining.

They may say their intentions were otherwise, but their action and words really make pretty clear cut. We deemed this unacceptable.

NADC on the other hand actually fought for their allies, and would not exit the front until everyone got near white peace, (maybe the near white peace was BiPolar). They did not insult them or try to get out of war before them because they thought they were poor strategist, from what I remember they even helped organize and mediate talks (this also might have been BiPolar). In sort NADC actually had a vested interest in GDA and UBD, and they didn't declare just to get into a war, they declared to help out their allies. DT clearly did not, and that is the difference, that is why we are demanding reparations.

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You were planning on abandoning them.

Actually a proxy IP was found on my account. I don't use proxies and I was asleep at the time it signed in and the screen shots were posted. So no, it wasn't anyone in our alliance leaking things.

So why do you assume it's an outside job when there's no evidence to support that assumption?

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So why do you assume it's an outside job when there's no evidence to support that assumption?

We don't precisely assume it's an outside job. But it wasn't an IC job. Whoever it was definitely hacked into Gibson's account. That's for certain. And whoever it was definitely ghosted Deus's account on the OWF. That's for certain. It really doesn't matter who it was. I mean, we'd all like to know, but it won't change that someone hacked into Gibson's account and that it was OOC.

This wasn't IC spying. It cannot have been. We know this. We're not guessing. We're absolutely certain because the evidence is clear.

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You know what's so much fun about the little game we're playing now is that negotiating is still the best thing for DT. If myworld weren't too proud, he's still be begging us to come to the table and find a solution. But he isn't. He's not going to try to find a solution that we'll agree to. He won't swallow his pride and admit that these things we're talking about are things we did. He's continue to hide behind the ego shield and pretend like he's not fiddling while his city burns.

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Hacking an admin account isn't OOC? Ghosting the account of one of our members on the OWF to post the information isn't OOC? Hmmm... we must have different definitions of OOC.

You encouraged that behavior by using their information on the OWF and in negotiations. The mods thought it was so OOC that they deleted it from the forums. You jumped all over anything you could get to try and get the advantage. And you were wrong. It didn't give you the advantage nor did it help your negotiations. It just made it apparent that you'll do anything for even the appearance of winning.

If you want to discourage that behavior in the future, it's simple. Decry it. Don't use it. Ignore it. Saying out of one side of your mouth that you're against such behavior while quoting it out of the other, encourages future events that are the same. Much like you claim to be against your membership trying to get us to disband, when we all know the truth of that as well, now don't we.

You can't win honorably. At all. We both know it. You've known it since 6 days into the war and that's why you tried to negotiate your surrender. Nothing's changed other than just how much further away from victory you've gotten. Your choices were to use every underhanded trick in the books or lose. And you chose both.

you do realize Screenshots have been used many times by dozens of alliances. Hell, your own alliance used a fake Screenshot of a conversation with someone impersonating Phoebus of LoSS as a reason to DoW LoSS. and you are going to try and spin us receiving SS that was posted on the forums? wow. seriously. and i have seen people in DT state they don't agree or condone with hacking.

but nice lies, half-truths, and accusations lacking evidence mate. DT never encouraged any behavior to hack or OOC attack and any of that. the fact that you make these claims without evidence is !@#$%^&*.

@Gibby- "You decided upon getting incomplete information from an OOC source that you were going to make an offer that you KNEW there was no way we were going to accept."

are you trying to also blame DT for the hacking? or at least trying to claim that DT ordered it? and ya'll talk about half-truths and !@#$ like that coming from DT, all the while you and Jocabia are tying to make claims that DT is going OOC on CSN with hacking, or getting others to hack and crap like that.

are you effing serious. are you going to sit there with absolutely no proof whatsoever and take this crap so goddamned seriously as to accuse all of DT or even a single person in DT of hacking or getting someone to hack or OOC attacking or any nonsense like that? how about ya'll take a step back from this GAME and realize that yes, some take it stupidly serious enough to hack (which sux) but that does not mean everyone does. nor does the fact that DT and CSN are enemies during this war, that we would go so low as to hack your forums. or get someone else to hack.

so how about the two of you just stop with the accusations like that as they are ridiculous and offensive beyond any IC crap we be spewing at one another. Taking it to the OOC level is just ridiculous and honestly stating that DT basically ordered or did the hacking is an OOC attack and it needs to stop since there is absolutely no proof this happened.

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We have pretty definite proof it was hacking, based on forum logs. Funny that the hacks stopped when the membership opinion shifted completely to supporting reps.

Accepting white peace after demanding terms, and sticking to them may make, as you suggest, us "Look Good" and "save us face" on the outside to those who have lost whatever little respect they used to have for our alliance, but internally it would be much more damaging, and that offer will never be accepted in its current form. As a government member I thought you would have realize this dilemma we would be faced with, or perhaps you thought we were not intelligent enough to realize this. maybe it was ignorance, whatever the case is, I believe at least Goose has made it clear white peace is not acceptable at this time, and I am sure Sarm has said something similar.

It seems no matter what we do, our terms will never be acceptable, and that is really unfortunate for you and your alliance because I believe this blog is basically saying, we are at our wits end, this is Legacy and CSN's final offer.

so you are stating that when the internal opinion shifted from against to supporting, the hacking stopped. which would imply that the person would not need to hack to learn this internal opinion shift. which would indicate someone that already had access to the area of the forums that had this information.

heh. so it appears whoever the hacker is, only hacked to cover their trail and the fact that they are more than likely a CSN member that already had access to the information that was passed along. and again, this is coming from the fact that you stated that the hacking stopped once the opinion shifted. so the hacker would know that the opinion shifted prior to hacking and thus not see the need to hack anymore. thank you for this revelation. now maybe Gibby and Jocabia can stop trying to claim/insinuate that DT had anything to do with the hacking.

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so you are stating that when the internal opinion shifted from against to supporting, the hacking stopped. which would imply that the person would not need to hack to learn this internal opinion shift. which would indicate someone that already had access to the area of the forums that had this information.

heh. so it appears whoever the hacker is, only hacked to cover their trail and the fact that they are more than likely a CSN member that already had access to the information that was passed along. and again, this is coming from the fact that you stated that the hacking stopped once the opinion shifted. so the hacker would know that the opinion shifted prior to hacking and thus not see the need to hack anymore. thank you for this revelation. now maybe Gibby and Jocabia can stop trying to claim/insinuate that DT had anything to do with the hacking.

Sorry, I left out that Goose added some more security features, and upgraded the forum software so the hackers could no longer use whatever exploit they were using. The shifting of the member opinion is completely irrelevant.

Honestly I know how much you guys dislike us, but this pin the tail on the hacker game is ridiculous.

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So why do you assume it's an outside job when there's no evidence to support that assumption?

Because a member could have used their own account and no one would have been able to find out who it is.

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so you are stating that when the internal opinion shifted from against to supporting, the hacking stopped. which would imply that the person would not need to hack to learn this internal opinion shift. which would indicate someone that already had access to the area of the forums that had this information.

heh. so it appears whoever the hacker is, only hacked to cover their trail and the fact that they are more than likely a CSN member that already had access to the information that was passed along. and again, this is coming from the fact that you stated that the hacking stopped once the opinion shifted. so the hacker would know that the opinion shifted prior to hacking and thus not see the need to hack anymore. thank you for this revelation. now maybe Gibby and Jocabia can stop trying to claim/insinuate that DT had anything to do with the hacking.

I'm not claiming or insinuating anything. I have no idea who hacked our forums. Jocabia isn't either. He is saying your Gov. took advantage of the leaks because they swayed their opinion.

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you do realize Screenshots have been used many times by dozens of alliances. Hell, your own alliance used a fake Screenshot of a conversation with someone impersonating Phoebus of LoSS as a reason to DoW LoSS. and you are going to try and spin us receiving SS that was posted on the forums? wow. seriously. and i have seen people in DT state they don't agree or condone with hacking.

but nice lies, half-truths, and accusations lacking evidence mate. DT never encouraged any behavior to hack or OOC attack and any of that. the fact that you make these claims without evidence is !@#$%^&*.

@Gibby- "You decided upon getting incomplete information from an OOC source that you were going to make an offer that you KNEW there was no way we were going to accept."

are you trying to also blame DT for the hacking? or at least trying to claim that DT ordered it? and ya'll talk about half-truths and !@#$ like that coming from DT, all the while you and Jocabia are tying to make claims that DT is going OOC on CSN with hacking, or getting others to hack and crap like that.

are you effing serious. are you going to sit there with absolutely no proof whatsoever and take this crap so goddamned seriously as to accuse all of DT or even a single person in DT of hacking or getting someone to hack or OOC attacking or any nonsense like that? how about ya'll take a step back from this GAME and realize that yes, some take it stupidly serious enough to hack (which sux) but that does not mean everyone does. nor does the fact that DT and CSN are enemies during this war, that we would go so low as to hack your forums. or get someone else to hack.

so how about the two of you just stop with the accusations like that as they are ridiculous and offensive beyond any IC crap we be spewing at one another. Taking it to the OOC level is just ridiculous and honestly stating that DT basically ordered or did the hacking is an OOC attack and it needs to stop since there is absolutely no proof this happened.

We're claiming you knew they were OOC. And using the stolen screenshots from someone who hacked our forum does encourage it to continue to happen. These aren't accusations without evidence.

Do you really want to claim that you and your leadership are so completely stupid that you didn't know the source of the screenshots? And when you posted about them on the OWF were you lying when you said you didn't agree with how they were obtained? Because at that time, you sure seemed to know they were the result of hacking. And other times when your leadership addressed them, they sure seemed to know we'd been hacked? Why the sudden case of amnesia?

No one is claiming that DT ordered the hack. As I said, you don't have to actually be a thief in order to purchase or sell stolen goods. And you don't have to be a thief in order to be punished for having stolen goods. The law is funny like that.

And, guess what, your alliance will suffer for it. This is what happens when you do this to us. This is what happens when you're to proud to be reasonable in peace discussions. This is what happens when your ego is bigger than your sword. And guess what you're going to do about it? You'll whine some more about how it's not fair. Or how you didn't know. Or how it was LoSS's fault, or your members, or Titan's, or anyone but myworld's. Well, at this point, we're not willing to ignore all the evidence, like your leadership actually saying they abandoned LoSS, like your leadership actually saying that the screens were hacked, and like your leadership actually saying that the hacked screens were the reason for the change in the offer, just to stop your whining. We've got another way to stop your whining. You've been seeing it for five days. And if it continues for another week, you won't have anything left to rebuild with.

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I'm not claiming or insinuating anything. I have no idea who hacked our forums. Jocabia isn't either. He is saying your Gov. took advantage of the leaks because they swayed their opinion.

And we're not just claiming or insinuating that your government took advantage of the hacking. We're quoting your government saying so. It's not a guess. It's a fact. Your sudden amnesia is even evidence that your membership and government realize that using the results of hacking was the wrong thing to do. Which is a bit of "too little, too late".

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There are consequences for optionally going to war with people, and those consequences should be expected when you enter a war with no obligation to do so.

So when are you paying your reps to LoSS then?

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So when are you paying your reps to LoSS then?

When they demand reparations, and we decide to accept them?...I was unaware the process of reparations negotiations would magically change for CSN.

I would also consider the probability of that situation occurring in this war to be very, very unlikely.

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