A Statement from Doomhouse

[Monster]

[quote name='KainIIIC' timestamp='1300514018' post='2669939']
What are you talking about here exactly? Athens could've hit STA, TPF or Hydra and we coulda defended against them, but they did not. The closest thing to a decision of war we came before ultimately deciding on GOONs was actually against MHA in support of CD.
[/quote]

It was discussed that if Athens hit STA, that attacking them through the Moldavi doctrine along with TPF was a possibility as Athens was the anticipated and likely counter against STA. The logs are out publicly in the intel dump thread.

I think it's funny how it's gone from "we didn't support Hydra because we wanted to support Polar/STA" to "we weren't going to enter."

Edited March 19, 2011 by Antoine Roquentin

[Sir Humphrey]

[quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1300514193' post='2669946']
It was discussed that [b]if[/b] Athens hit STA, that attacking them through the Moldavi doctrine along with TPF was a [b]possibility[/b] as Athens was the anticipated and likely counter against STA. The logs are out publicly in the intel dump thread.
[/quote]
With respect, are you seriously arguing that is sufficient justification for a preemptive strike against NPO?

[Monster]

It's only one facet of it, really. Athens was going to hit STA and it changed at the last minute due to some extenuating circumstances. Everyone knew about it. Legion should have been involved from the beginning and keeping them out only made sense in the context of not wanting to force the NPO issue early on in order to gather more support. If NPO had been set on not entering, it wouldn't have mattered whether Legion entered first or not.

Edited March 19, 2011 by Antoine Roquentin

[youwish959]

[quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1300514193' post='2669946']
It was discussed that if Athens hit STA, that attacking them through the Moldavi doctrine along with TPF was a possibility as Athens was the anticipated and likely counter against STA. The logs are out publicly in the intel dump thread.
[/quote]
Yes, that was discussed. However, that did not happen, so that was not even a viable option.

I never said we weren't going to enter, I said we were unable to tell if we were going to enter.

[youwish959]

[quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1300514938' post='2669969']
It's only one facet of it, really. Athens was going to hit STA and it changed at the last minute due to some extenuating circumstances. Everyone knew about it. Legion should have been involved from the beginning and keeping them out only made sense in the context of not wanting to force the NPO issue early on in order to gather more support. If NPO had been set on not entering, it wouldn't have mattered whether Legion entered first or not.
[/quote]
Once again, no one had definite answers for anything. I didn't even know whether or not NPO would be entering, even if NSO entered.

Edited March 19, 2011 by youwish959

[Monster]

[quote name='youwish959' timestamp='1300515094' post='2669972']
Once again, no one had definite answers for anything. I didn't even know whether or not NPO would be entering, even if NSO entered.
[/quote]

Others have said that NPO would enter if its allies got involved, not only Haflinger, but TCK mentioned it as well.


On NSO's end support had been promised to specific alliances and LintWad in the Hydra thread said as much.

[Sir Humphrey]

[quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1300514938' post='2669969']
It's only one facet of it, really. Athens was going to hit STA and it changed at the last minute due to some extenuating circumstances. Everyone knew about it. Legion should have been involved from the beginning and keeping them out only made sense in the context of not wanting to force the NPO issue early on in order to gather more support. If NPO had been set on not entering, it wouldn't have mattered whether Legion entered first or not.
[/quote]
And that is the whole problem with your justification for preemption. It is solely based on hypothetical scenarios of what might happen, rather than any specific knowledge of what was planned by any of the alliances on the other side, let alone the one that you actually attacked.

Edit: Clarification.

Edited March 19, 2011 by Sir Humphrey

[KainIIIC]

[quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1300514938' post='2669969']
It's only one facet of it, really. Athens was going to hit STA and it changed at the last minute due to some extenuating circumstances. Everyone knew about it. Legion should have been involved from the beginning and keeping them out only made sense in the context of not wanting to force the NPO issue early on in order to gather more support. If NPO had been set on not entering, it wouldn't have mattered whether Legion entered first or not.
[/quote]

Then we might've entered, along with our top sekrit anti-Athens treaty with Knights of Ni! But that didn't exactly happen... like I said, the closest we got to a final decision was against MHA before we set on GOONs, everything else were hypotheticals that didn't pan out.

[Monster]

I think there was enough to go on, ultimately and it wouldn't have made a difference in a tangible sense if we had just hit Legion, NSO, or TPF preemptively except for the fact that they are not as big as NPO.


[quote name='KainIIIC' timestamp='1300515522' post='2669982']
Then we might've entered, along with our top sekrit anti-Athens treaty with Knights of Ni! But that didn't exactly happen... like I said, the closest we got to a final decision was against MHA before we set on GOONs, everything else were hypotheticals that didn't pan out.
[/quote]

It was close enough to a reality. The Athens-STA scenario, that is. When your behaviors point to wanting to side with one particular side, it's not a huge leap to assume you will enter. You weren't going to support Hydra because you had already chosen one side over another. The execution being up in the air is another thing altogether.

Edited March 19, 2011 by Antoine Roquentin

[mhawk]

[quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1300515540' post='2669983']
I think there was enough to go on, ultimately and it wouldn't have made a difference in a tangible sense if we had just hit Legion, NSO, or TPF preemptively except for the fact that they are not as big as NPO.




It was close enough to a reality. The Athens-STA scenario, that is.
[/quote]
If your argument is that the preemption was to secure the flanks of those hitting polar/polar allies, why the need to continue the destruction beyond what is done now that the entire front is peaced out?

To be clear I'm still stating neither NPO nor TPF was going to enter that front anyways, same way you can say Valhalla was clearly not going in with NoR to hit wF, or with Oly, or to defend ML. Yet, you did not pre empt or call them out?

[Sir Humphrey]

You preempted nothing if the relevant alliances had not even decided what they were going to do. NPO's fate was sealed by you when PB attacked NpO, and in fact well before then given you don't deny that attacking NPO was inevitable.

Edited March 19, 2011 by Sir Humphrey

[KainIIIC]

[quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1300515540' post='2669983']
It was close enough to a reality. The Athens-STA scenario, that is. When your behaviors point to wanting to side with one particular side, it's not a huge leap to assume you will enter. You weren't going to support Hydra because you had already chosen one side over another. The execution being up in the air is another thing altogether.
[/quote]

Yeah but it never happened. Our #2 in charge however did tell our Brotherhood that we'd made a decision to follow CD against MHA on the other hand. Quite a bit more significant than some musings and ideas in backchannels, no?

[Monster]

[quote name='mhawk' timestamp='1300515985' post='2669992']
If your argument is that the preemption was to secure the flanks of those hitting polar/polar allies, why the need to continue the destruction beyond what is done now that the entire front is peaced out?

To be clear I'm still stating neither NPO nor TPF was going to enter that front anyways, same way you can say Valhalla was clearly not going in with NoR to hit wF, or with Oly, or to defend ML. Yet, you did not pre empt or call them out?
[/quote]


Mostly because of the peace mode tactic employed that prevented the war from being fought.

Here's the difference with Valhalla: Valhalla had a clear bad history with Polar and made it clear they weren't going to enter on Polar's behalf. Duckroll in general had ties to our side and it was never really a possibility that they'd betray TOP to help Polar.

NPO and its allies were supportive of Polar throughout the war. The only connection that you had to our side was Hydra and LSF. The decision to not help Hydra had been already made. LSF was not countered and NATO was rolling with TFD from the start. At that juncture, Exodus had already been been countered and Valhalla did not ride in. Oly wasn't attacked and ML was never formally countered either. If Pacifica and TPF did not want to enter and wanted to make it clear, a simple announcement would have likely made that intent clear for all to see.

Further elaboration: TPF had just signed with NpO's main ally STA. The NPO itself was trying to upgrade a treaty with a Polar ally. The alighment prior to the war was pointing in one specific direction which makes it entirely different from Duckroll, who had moved away from NPO and hated Polar. NPO and TPF were getting closer to Polar.

Edited March 19, 2011 by Antoine Roquentin

[Sir Paul]

[quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1300516217' post='2670000']
Mostly because of the peace mode tactic employed that prevented the war from being fought.[/quote]

Well then, let no one say the Order was at war with FAN when they apologized.

Edited March 19, 2011 by Sir Paul

[Monster]

[quote name='Sir Paul' timestamp='1300516607' post='2670003']
Well then, let no one say the Order was at war with FAN when they apologized.
[/quote]

Nice edit. I was going to call you on using "we". Funny though. When will the tape delay end?

[Sir Paul]

[quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1300516732' post='2670005']
Nice edit. I was going to call you on using "we". Funny though. When will the tape delay end?
[/quote]
I noticed you edited the post above mine. I want to be just like you when I grow up.

[Ragashingo]

Next war every alliance from GPA down should flood the OWF with topics stating that they don't plan to get involved. Apparently that's the only to stop some from peering into the future and acting on what they could have possibly happened.

[Monster]

[quote name='Ragashingo' timestamp='1300517017' post='2670009']
Next war every alliance from GPA down should flood the OWF with topics stating that they don't plan to get involved. Apparently that's the only to stop some from peering into the future and acting on what they could have possibly happened.
[/quote]

When your treaties only point in one direction and the FA path charted beforehand points in that direction, it's not as ridiculous as you make it seem.

[Sir Paul]

[quote name='Ragashingo' timestamp='1300517017' post='2670009']
Next war every alliance from GPA down should flood the OWF with topics stating that they don't plan to get involved. Apparently that's the only to stop some from peering into the future and acting on what they could have possibly happened.
[/quote]
Considering some members of Doomhouse attacked alliances without posting a formal declaration of war, I just assume everyone is at war with everyone, unless stated otherwise.

Anyway, back on topic! As we all know, the Order is a shrub that must be trimmed back from time to time. After dismantling their tech, all that is left is to dismantle their infrastructure. Then, we can do it again in another 600 days. 300 if we've nothing else to do.

[Ragashingo]

[quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1300516217' post='2670000']
Mostly because of the peace mode tactic employed that prevented the war from being fought.
[/quote]

I like the logic here. The NPO made no sign that it planned to go to war, thus it had to preempted Then the NPO went out of its way to keep their heavy hitters from damaging your alliances, thus they must be destroyed. Why do you guys insist on punishing an alliance that is trying not to be a threat to you?

[Guest avenger218]

[quote name='youwish959' timestamp='1300334445' post='2666903']
I see your still pissed about that pile of rubble that used to be GOONS. Oh well, we've moved on to different, much brighter Kingdoms. We hope you can do the same.
[/quote]
Yup they can't get over the fact that we turned GOONS into a burning wreck.
They're even more upset that we found that castle, kidnapped the princess, replaced all their cats with dogs, Stole all their pies and cakes, took all the candy from their babies now we're across the moat laying siege to Archon's castle.

We hear ya knocking, but getting in requires first getting past our highly trained (And very hungry) rottweilers, Running the gauntlet of cannons that we have set up, than you must get past our sophisticated array of high tech defenses.
Oh and siege is irrelevant as we have more money

Edited March 19, 2011 by avenger218

[Ragashingo]

[quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1300517155' post='2670011']
When your treaties only point in one direction and the FA path charted beforehand points in that direction, it's not as ridiculous as you make it seem.
[/quote]

And when it was obvious that a certain powerful group was salivating for them to enter, and when their allies made moves designed to help them stay out, suddenly its clear that they were [I]destined[/I] to enter? It's not the tidy straight path that you've been trying to make it. Add on the fact that the NPO had stayed away from war or provocation of any kind for a very long time and your make believe version of the way things would have played out looks silly indeed.

[Beefspari]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1300508678' post='2669826']
He has not written a single line of iambic pentameter.
[/quote]
So he's got quantity down already, only difference would be he'd actually have to think about what he was writing. I can see how that might be a problem.

[Monster]

[quote name='Ragashingo' timestamp='1300517654' post='2670015']
And when it was obvious that a certain powerful group was salivating for them to enter, and when their allies made moves designed to help them stay out, suddenly its clear that they were [I]destined[/I] to enter? It's not the tidy straight path that you've been trying to make it. Add on the fact that the NPO had stayed away from war or provocation of any kind for a very long time and your make believe version of the way things would have played out looks silly indeed.
[/quote]

It made the most sense to not have Pacific enter early on. If STA just wanted to annoy us by keeping NPO out, they could have just had TPF post a DoN. I think it was pretty lame on your part to use your other allies as shields for TPF if you were going to keep them out, usually when an alliance is protecting its allies, it protects all of them. I think the STA playing us dynamic is one of the best parts really since Tygaland said we didn't have the balls to attack NPO.


It's kind of funny if the intent really was just to protect TPF.

"Hey NV can go into the grinder but precious TPF must be saved!!"

"Let's have all of our allies rolled so NPO can get rolled at a later date"

Edited March 19, 2011 by Antoine Roquentin

[Ragashingo]

[quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1300517863' post='2670019']
It made the most sense to not have Pacific enter early on. If STA just wanted to annoy us by keeping NPO out, they could have just had TPF post a DoN. I think it was pretty lame on your part to use your other allies as shields for TPF if you were going to keep them out, usually when an alliance is protecting its allies, it protects all of them. I think the STA playing us dynamic is one of the best parts really since Tygaland said we didn't have the balls to attack NPO.


It's kind of funny if the intent really was just to protect TPF.

"Hey NV can go into the grinder but precious TPF must be saved!!"

"Let's have all of our allies rolled so NPO can get rolled at a later date"
[/quote]

What is this annoy you thing??? I thought the whole reason you attacked was BECAUSE Pacifica was predestined to enter. Now all of a sudden you change from preemptive self defense to being annoyed at someone maneuvering to keep them out??? Can't have it both ways...

As for your whole theory about TPF and NV, we did no such thing. In the early days and week(s) of the war we were doing well enough that we didn't need to risk escalation by bringing in TPF. By the time we got dog piled on with half declerations, ghost declarations, and no declarations it was clear that NPO was soon going to be targeted no matter what and as I understand it TPF asked to remain out in order to help it's long time ally in the event they were needed there. We agreed and y'all attacked with no reason and the rest is history. As for NV, we are very greatful for their help and at no point did we put anyone in front of them. For what I heard, mainly for our gov, is that they helped us get the white peace we deserved.