A Statement from Doomhouse

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='Ryuzaki' timestamp='1300691055' post='2672016']
The issue isn't one person being in peace mode. If it was just one or two NPO members who were in peace mode and the rest were actually engaged with us, there wouldn't be an issue. It becomes an issue when it is the majority of an alliance.[/quote]
In other words, it becomes an issue when NPO doesn't just bend over and let you kick them around. Shame on NPO!

Clearly, this war isn't just a part of VE-Polaris. You've already done your job to make sure VE won. We're only at war to satiate your thirst for Pacifican blood at this point. It proves that this is a war of paranoia and hate.

[quote]OOC: No matter what side of the war you find yourself on, or what you think about IC politics, I would find it hard to believe that people think that an alliance hiding away in peace mode when there is a war is good for the health of the game.
[/quote]
OOC: Are you [i]really[/i] going to go here? Do you [i]really[/i] believe keeping NPO out of the game for [i]another[/i] two years is going to achieve [i]anything[/i] in the way of solving stagnation? Let me give you a hint: It's going to have the opposite effect.

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='Kalasin' timestamp='1300691153' post='2672019']
you're not significant in any way whatsoever.
[/quote]
I'd like to think of myself as a significant pain in the ass.

Edited March 21, 2011 by HeroofTime55

[Kalasin]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1300691500' post='2672022']
I'd like to think of myself as a significant pain in the ass.
[/quote]

a pain in the ass perhaps, but not a significant pain in the ass~

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='Sir Humphrey' timestamp='1300691022' post='2672015']
This is what leads me to believe that the other alliances in your coalition have different objectives to the simple preemptive war that you claim this to be. They leave it to you to justify it, because your explanation provides them with the legitimacy that they seek.

You deserve a pay rise
[/quote]
Umbrella is really the only alliance in their group worth any degree of respect. It's sort of expected that they would hide behind that in an effort to... Well, they're not gaining any ground, I suppose it would be in an effort to not lose ground quite so quickly.

[Ryuzaki]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1300691411' post='2672021']
In other words, it becomes an issue when NPO doesn't just bend over and let you kick them around. Shame on NPO!

Clearly, this war isn't just a part of VE-Polaris. You've already done your job to make sure VE won. We're only at war to satiate your thirst for Pacifican blood at this point. It proves that this is a war of paranoia and hate.

OOC: Are you [i]really[/i] going to go here? Do you [i]really[/i] believe keeping NPO out of the game for [i]another[/i] two years is going to achieve [i]anything[/i] in the way of solving stagnation? Let me give you a hint: It's going to have the opposite effect.
[/quote]

Try replying to what I actually wrote rather than just yelling the same inane crap you have been this whole time.

OOC: yes, I do think it is bad. I wouldn't care if it was VE, GOONS, NSO, MK, ODN or any other alliance. If there is a war, and the only tactic employed is to hide a large number of your nations in peace mode with the objective of literally doing nothing and waiting for your opponent to get bored, then it is a major problem. People play this game for entertainment, and a large number of those people enjoy wars. When a war is nothing more than a staring contest it turns an already boring war system into the most pointless and boring game in existence. /OOC

The fact that some of you can't seem to realise that we have major issues with the tactic itself, and not those using it, isn't surprising considering the staggering intellects showcased here

[Monster]

[quote name='Sir Humphrey' timestamp='1300691022' post='2672015']
This is what leads me to believe that the other alliances in your coalition have different objectives to the simple preemptive war that you claim this to be. They leave it to you to justify it, because your explanation provides them with the legitimacy that they seek.

You deserve a pay rise
[/quote]

Well alliances that attacked NPO don't like NPO. That's a given, but it wasn't the main reason they were attacked two months ago. Thing is, we'd be in the same exact situation if NPO had entered on day two unless Polar insisted on not peacing out or something.

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='Kalasin' timestamp='1300691634' post='2672024']
a pain in the ass perhaps, but not a significant pain in the ass~
[/quote]
A regular pain in the ass doesn't have giant walls of prose written about him in an effort to taunt him

[General Scipio]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1300691411' post='2672021']
In other words, it becomes an issue when NPO doesn't just bend over and let you kick them around. Shame on NPO!

Clearly, this war isn't just a part of VE-Polaris. You've already done your job to make sure VE won. We're only at war to satiate your thirst for Pacifican blood at this point. It proves that this is a war of paranoia and hate.


OOC: Are you [i]really[/i] going to go here? Do you [i]really[/i] believe keeping NPO out of the game for [i]another[/i] two years is going to achieve [i]anything[/i] in the way of solving stagnation? Let me give you a hint: It's going to have the opposite effect.
[/quote]
Ok, I'll make this all bolded so you can understand. [b]A month of war will not keep NPO out of the game for 2 years.[/b]

It will keep them out of the planet for like...a month. How damaging do you really think a month of war really is? NPO will do just as much damage to DH's upper tier, so they'll be in the same relative postition. They'll have 60 more damaged nations, but DH will probably have into the hundreds. If they don't come out of peace mode, DH will still have the same relative strength over them, simply because NPO never fought. 60 NPO nations will not have taken damage, and hundreds of DH nations will have been spared damage.

Damaging DH's nations is a good tactic, because if you can perhaps get one of the main groups supporting us on your side, you'll have the advantage. Get MHA or Sparta or FARK on your side and due to the fact that our upper tier was damaged fighting NPO, you'll have the advantage in upper nations.

NPO has been at peace for 2 years, they have the money to fight a month of wars. You're bill locked nation may take 2 years to get back up to it's pre-war levels, but NPO's will not. Get it?

Edited March 21, 2011 by General Scipio

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='Ryuzaki' timestamp='1300691884' post='2672028']
Try replying to what I actually wrote rather than just yelling the same inane crap you have been this whole time.

The fact that some of you can't seem to realise that we have major issues with the tactic itself, and not those using it, isn't surprising considering the staggering intellects showcased here
[/quote]
Given the past two years, there is exactly zero reason to believe this has anything to do with anything other than the who.

[quote]
OOC: yes, I do think it is bad. I wouldn't care if it was VE, GOONS, NSO, MK, ODN or any other alliance. If there is a war, and the only tactic employed is to hide a large number of your nations in peace mode with the objective of literally doing nothing and waiting for your opponent to get bored, then it is a major problem. People play this game for entertainment, and a large number of those people enjoy wars. When a war is nothing more than a staring contest it turns an already boring war system into the most pointless and boring game in existence. /OOC[/quote]
OOC: NPO's job isn't to sacrifice itself for your entertainment. You think it's fun being dismantled every two years? Get over your unwarranted sense of self importance. You're not the whole game, NPO is a part of that game too. Maybe they don't like getting rolled on an annual schedule. Maybe they want to have a chance at being back in the game before 2013.

[Sir Humphrey]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1300691819' post='2672027']
Umbrella is really the only alliance in their group worth any degree of respect. It's sort of expected that they would hide behind that in an effort to... Well, they're not gaining any ground, I suppose it would be in an effort to not lose ground quite so quickly.
[/quote]
I thought someone else was arguing that MK was in charge

[Ryuzaki]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1300692353' post='2672036']
Given the past two years, there is exactly zero reason to believe this has anything to do with anything other than the who.
[/quote]
If you refuse to believe that there is anything more to it, then you are an idiot. There is no point in replying to you.

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1300692353' post='2672036']
OOC: NPO's job isn't to sacrifice itself for your entertainment. You think it's fun being dismantled every two years? Maybe they don't like getting rolled on an annual schedule. Maybe they want to have a chance at being back in the game before 2013.
[/quote]
OOC:
If the people in NPO wanted to play without war, they should have gone and joined a neutral alliance. I have had every nation I have ever had destroyed in war, and winning or losing it was entertaining. Also if 30 days of war makes them unable to do anything for two years, then they are bad at the simple game mechanics that make up CN. My nation was less than a year old and I got to 40k ns with a decent stockpile of tech, as well as being nuke capable. GOONS is almost entirely small, young nations and they have had a large effect on CN.

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1300692353' post='2672036']
Get over your unwarranted sense of self importance.
[/quote]
You are in no place to comment on others sense of self importance.

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='Sir Humphrey' timestamp='1300692362' post='2672037']
I thought someone else was arguing that MK was in charge
[/quote]
Umbrella is a semi-respectable yes-man. Make no mistake about it. What makes them that, is that they won't go out of their way to do stupid things and cause damage on their own. But they follow along when their allies do.

[Henkie]

[quote name='Ryuzaki' timestamp='1300693030' post='2672043']
If you refuse to believe that there is anything more to it, then you are an idiot. There is no point in replying to you.[/quote]

Yet you go on...

Point is, this war was completely unprovoked and for the simple reason that the last attempt to dismantle the NPO failed miserably, because the game doesn't allow for it if you're not willing to commit to a long term tactic of perma-ZI-ing every single nation. So the reality is that somewhere along the line, whether it's this war or the next, some group of people is going to decide that they're willing to go that far. And if they're willing to go that far, this is what it'll look like: a suggestion of peace to draw nations out of peace mode and than breaking their word. And as my PM inbox this morning proved, this strategy is not only not beyond Doomhouse, they're actually applying it as we speak. I, and all other nations this morning, received a PM from Doomhouse where they declared peace had been achieved. Yet Doomhouse is still fighting. What basis do you have to expect us to trust you on your word when you've already shown how little it's worth?

[quote]OOC:
If the people in NPO wanted to play without war, they should have gone and joined a neutral alliance. I have had every nation I have ever had destroyed in war, and winning or losing it was entertaining.[/quote]

If neutrality is in commiting no offence great enough to warrant a war, NPO is neutral. If neutrality is in actually not getting entangled in a war, it's not our choice, but yours.

[quote]Also if 30 days of war makes them unable to do anything for two years, then they are bad at the simple game mechanics that make up CN. My nation was less than a year old and I got to 40k ns with a decent stockpile of tech, as well as being nuke capable. GOONS is almost entirely small, young nations and they have had a large effect on CN.[/quote]

I don't know to what degree you're willing to commit to the lie, but what makes you think the war will be over after 30 days? Do you honestly expect us to believe that?

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='Ryuzaki' timestamp='1300693030' post='2672043']
If you refuse to believe that there is anything more to it, then you are an idiot. There is no point in replying to you.


OOC:
If the people in NPO wanted to play without war, they should have gone and joined a neutral alliance. I have had every nation I have ever had destroyed in war, and winning or losing it was entertaining. Also if 30 days of war makes them unable to do anything for two years, then they are bad at the simple game mechanics that make up CN. My nation was less than a year old and I got to 40k ns with a decent stockpile of tech, as well as being nuke capable. GOONS is almost entirely small, young nations and they have had a large effect on CN.


You are in no place to comment on others sense of self importance.
[/quote]
No, you're the one who isn't important! Doomhouse sucks, and these terms are appalling! [Insert argument about how the VE-Polar front ended, again, for good measure]

[OOC] I'm sort of tired at the small back and forth IC drivel in this particular exchange. Sort of regrettably, the more interesting point of discussion is this OOC aside, and it's only a little borderline OOC at this point, though there's no way to bring it back into the realm of IC. Let's just keep this aside respectful since we are OOC. Cool?

Now, sure, it might be entertaining to have a close match and even if your nation is destroyed, you still had fun, alright, cool. But NPO isn't going to bounce back under the current terms offered. Bear in mind that you just destroyed their own internal banks, and GOONS is inflicting a good 9 months of reps on all of NPO's allies, tying up the aid slots. While I'm sure it's not difficult with a constant influx of aid to bounce up to 40k NS in under a year, it's just not so easy when you're under terms with no means to finance your regrowth. And this is all assuming that Pacifica gets granted a white peace at the end of a 'month' and that DH doesn't come back all ham-fisted a month or two later to smash things again over something silly (or, as they have proven their capacity to do so, nothing at all).

So in short, yes, it will keep Pacifica out for a long time, and no, it's not going to add anything to the game that Pacifica play by the rules of DH rather than by their own rules. As I said, NPO's role in this game is [i]not[/i] to entertain and adhere to the whims of DH. And losing war after war, getting attacked out of the blue without even being allowed to play the political aspect of the game to keep out of war, it's just not fun. It's like if you rolled a neutral over and over again, you're not letting them play the way they want to play. They have their own free will to play as they choose, and forcing them to play by different rules by arguing some bunk OOC point is just plain wrong. NPO plays the politics, and DH plays the war. Two totally different styles, two totally different methods of extracting enjoyment from the game, and Pacifica shouldn't sacrifice on their end to appease the ends of DH.[/OOC]

[Vol Navy]

[quote name='General Scipio' timestamp='1300692018' post='2672032']
Ok, I'll make this all bolded so you can understand. [b]A month of war will not keep NPO out of the game for 2 years.[/b]

It will keep them out of the game for like...a month. How damaging do you really think a month of war really is? NPO will do just as much damage to DH's upper tier, so they'll be in the same relative postition. They'll have 60 more damaged nations, but DH will probably have into the hundreds. If they don't come out of peace mode, DH will still have the same relative strength over them, simply because NPO never fought. 60 NPO nations will not have taken damage, and hundreds of DH nations will have been spared damage.

Damaging DH's nations is a good tactic, because if you can perhaps get one of the main groups supporting us on your side, you'll have the advantage. Get MHA or Sparta or FARK on your side and due to the fact that our upper tier was damaged fighting NPO, you'll have the advantage in upper nations.

NPO has been at peace for 2 years, they have the money to fight a month of wars. You're bill locked nation may take 2 years to get back up to it's pre-war levels, but NPO's will not. Get it?
[/quote]


Do you have a large tech heavy nation or have you ever fought one? I suspect the answer is no, not at all. In one week vs 10k+ tech nations I lost 11,000 infra and over 2000 tech and about 4000 miles of land, about 66,000 ns. The infra can be rebuilt, land isn't as easy to reaquire and the tech takes a long time to recover.

NPO has one nation with 10k+ tech. One nation. MK/UMB alone have 55 10k+ tech nations. How damaging would a month of war vs those numbers be? Extremely. And no, NPO wouldn't dish out nearly as much damage as they took. Say an NPO nation with 5500 tech fights 3 Umbrella nation with 11,000 tech each of those nations will do signifigantly more damage than the NPO nation is capable of dishing out, almost double. His nukes will knock off around 300 infra, theirs will knock off close to 600. Air. CM and ground will also do much more.

If that weren't the case DH wouldn't be asking for this. They would not ask for a war where they'd take anything close to equal damage.

[Ardus]

[quote name='Penguin' timestamp='1300687699' post='2671965']
Mandatory aid falls? Now that's a surrender term!
[/quote]

I once considered paying off small alliances to disband or merge into each other in order to increase alliance density and reduce the micro count, but wrote it off as impractical and unlikely to work.

[quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1300689018' post='2671989']
Jesus. Why do you keep insisting MK is this supreme driving force?
[/quote]

Ardus, Overlord of the Grand Conspiracy

[Alterego]

Why we are in here, DH DoW:

[quote name='TheNeverender' timestamp='1295928088' post='2597854']
We cannot allow any chance of a return to power by the New Pacific Order. For years they ruled with an iron fist. They engineered a multitude of first strike "curbstomps," the most grossly abusive among them being the glibly named Woodstock Masscre against the Green Protection Agency. Never one to face an enemy with an even remote chance of victory, and always one to beat on the weak and the vulnerable, the New Pacific Order was a true master of the first strike attack. They could not only beat down the weak, but they had maneuvered the politics of the day such that they could do so with impunity.
[/quote]

DH went through past crimes of the NPO (despite them abandoning these practices years ago) and claim this war is necessary to stop them returning to power to prevent these crimes returning. The truth is that DH know now and knew before the war NPO could not return to power and were growing increasingly more isolated.


[quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1300662467' post='2671506']
No, it doesn't. Duckroll's stance was clear from the start and had treaties to both sides. NPO and its allies only had treaties to NpO's side. Well the one treaty that cold have been activated was Hydra and it was known that couldn't have happened.
[/quote]


[quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1300677231' post='2671828']
Valhalla wasn't going to enter because of CSN countering you. It would have been because of the reps issue. You're full of crap if you think Valhalla was going to enter if you had just been offered white peace. You're not informed at all when you actually postulate that there was a legit chance of Duckroll helping NpO.
[/quote]

In the run up to the outbreak of the war Duckroll made it clear this was not their war. That was a group of 5 traditional allies of NPO and their allies stating they would be staying out of this fight. ML eventually entered but this scenario was not known before the outbreak of the NpO/VE war on the 17th or the DH attack a week later. It was made clear DH was going its own way.

[quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1300537413' post='2670129']
If it's only in my mind, why did other people distance themselves?
[/quote]

At the outbreak of the NpO/VE war NPO were at their at their weakest since their before their reps ended. They had become more isolated and it was known that they were increasingly isolated. The chances of them returning to power was looking even more unlikely before DH declared war on them for existing.. DH has at least 7 days notice that DR was not going to enter this war because it was made clear from the outset they were not going to join this war. They have repeatedly said in many threads they knew DR was not going to enter this war. They have also acknowledged NPOs political position has been weakened over time when other people distanced themselves from NPO.

There was no chance of NPO returning to power and they knew NPO had become more and more politically weakened, noting the loss of potential wartime allies right up to the outbreak of the war. Nothing proved this more than MK and their allies mass raiding of red nations last year. NPO were incapable of defending red nations as they had done in the past. Since that time they were politically weakened even further than they has been since their humbling after Karma.

[quote]We acknowledge that we have been defeated in this war. We have been humbled and we have been forced to look at ourselves in a different light. Today we walk down a different path than that of yesterday; the rescinding of the Moldavi Doctrine is but one step in that direction.[/quote]

This war was not about NPOs possible return to power. NPO were incapable of returning to power. However, since NPOs defeat in Karma there have been many curbstomps, crippling reps and other abuses of power. DH have [b][u]officially [/u][/b]adopted the role of world police but do nothing to address their own crimes and the crimes of their allies and instead us their self appointed role as world police to destroy other alliances based on a lie.



[b]Once again, from the self appointed world police.[/b] Who polices the self appointed world police?

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1300334058' post='2666890']
At long last the dream of the Kingdom and Doomhouse grows manifest--that we may have a world free of the cruel emotion and crippling condemnation that so dominates our past. That we may fight with one another in the pursuance of strategic goals without everlasting annihilation. That we may live without those who set the standards of misery and fear that so long ruled us, that so long required retribution.

The enemy still resists, however. Even now scattered forces in the Hopeless Coalition refuse the generous peace initiatives of our governments or work to convince their allies to do the same. Rumors of our generosity and patience are fought with speeches of paranoia and armageddon. Fallen emperors and defeated tyrants still cling to the spectre of an apocalyptic coalition permanently arranged against them, all the while refusing our kindness out of pride while guilting allies into doing the same. They will fail and fall, in due time. Those who do not bend will find themselves broken beyond all repair.

This does not however mean a world without consequences. Though we seek to be kind, we must still be just. Those who avoid war out of cowardice and those who seek to prolong the suffering of their people through continued conflict will find punitives piling against them. We continue to be patient in dispelling the myth built around us, a myth that keeps the exhausted troops of Hopeless in the trenches, but our patience will soon give way to prosecution. So too will the cowardly strategy against GOONS be met with punishment, though modest. Even those who so sought to break the Goonland will find their terms to be of fair reparations or be given fair, and even beneficial, methods to render them all but nonexistant.

Our accomplishments are not absolute, nor are they perfect. Already this battle has revealed much work remains to be done in spreading our vision of the world. But in time, all will see the light that is our message, shining from the depths of the Box.

We near the end. The end of forced disbandment. The end of terms that cripple alliances forever. The end of silence for fear of persecution. The end of the influence of those who would overthrow these goals in favor of their own return to power. The end of cowardice. The end of myth and fear. The end of this war.

We will endure. We will prevail. We will bring about these ends.

Signed,
[i]Ardus of the Mushroom Kingdom
Sardonic of the Goon Order of Oppression, Negligence, and Sadism
Natan of Umbrella[/i]
[/quote]

[Vol Navy]

[quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1300689018' post='2671989']
Jesus. Why do you keep insisting MK is this supreme driving force?
[/quote]


Probably because Archon is always the voice of everything from your side. Because it's always MK making announcements like these. Because the entire reason for this war was MK was bored and thought "hey, NPO is our old enemy, lets war them." And what do you know, the war happens.

[Monster]

That's nice, Alterego. You make a good point though that with Polar rolled, Pacific was going to be weakened, so it made the most sense for them go in on the Polar side. The Polar-VE conflict was shaky when Ragnarok renegged on not entering and AZTEC switched from possible VE side to Polar side.


[quote name='Vol Navy' timestamp='1300702217' post='2672106']
Probably because Archon is always the voice of everything from your side. Because it's always MK making announcements like these. Because the entire reason for this war was MK was bored and thought "hey, NPO is our old enemy, lets war them." And what do you know, the war happens.
[/quote]

Um, you do realize MK was hardly the only alliance that wanted to attack NPO right? The fairytale world where NPO wasn't going to get rolled by someone doesn't exist. It was a widespread idea amongst various groups. It's funny that you think it was the reason for the war. So if it simply went from "Let's roll NPO" to war, it'd have happened a lot sooner.

Edited March 21, 2011 by Antoine Roquentin

[berbers]

[quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1300702230' post='2672107']
That's nice, Alterego. You make a good point though that with Polar rolled, Pacific was going to be weakened, so it made the most sense for them go in on the Polar side. [b]The Polar-VE conflict was shaky when Ragnarok renegged on not entering and AZTEC switched from possible VE side to Polar side.[/b][/quote]

It was never shaky, you had so much NS waiting in the wings, you guys managed to counter AZTEC with FARK, Sparta and MHA, that was what, 40M NS?

Don't go posting tripe Antoine, you've made some very good points, but to say at any point the polar-ve front was shaky is ridiculous.

Edit: Wow that's alot of commas but I stand by them in their hour of need. I will not edit them out!

Edited March 21, 2011 by berbers

[Monster]

Let's say after Ragnarok goes to Polar side, they pull significant amounts of alliances with them. I know for a fact Tautology was trying to do it. There was definitely a point where victory was uncertain during that time and regardless, entering on the NpO side late in the game was the best move for Pacific, given they'd be in a worse position if they didn't enter at all.

[Vol Navy]

[quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1300702728' post='2672112']
Let's say after Ragnarok goes to Polar side, they pull significant amounts of alliances with them. I know for a fact Tautology was trying to do it. There was definitely a point where victory was uncertain during that time and regardless, entering on the NpO side late in the game was the best move for Pacific, given they'd be in a worse position if they didn't enter at all.
[/quote]


Well that didn't happen at all and clearly wasn't going to happen when you launched this attack. So it has absolutely 0 bearing on this conflict.

[Monster]

[quote name='Vol Navy' timestamp='1300702929' post='2672114']
Well that didn't happen at all and clearly wasn't going to happen when you launched this attack. So it has absolutely 0 bearing on this conflict.
[/quote]

Not exactly. The point is, that it wasn't in our interests for the conflict to drag on when NSO and co. were taking their time to enter because stuff like that had already taken place. In order to cut down on further problems, getting to the main event made the most sense.

[Vol Navy]

[quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1300703131' post='2672115']
Not exactly. The point is, that it wasn't in our interests for the conflict to drag on when NSO and co. were taking their time to enter because stuff like that had already taken place. In order to cut down on further problems, getting to the main event made the most sense.
[/quote]


So rolling Pacifica was the main event for the PB/Polar front? Well at least that's fully admitted now even though it was pretty well clear anyway.

[Monster]

[quote name='Vol Navy' timestamp='1300703430' post='2672118']
So rolling Pacifica was the main event for the PB/Polar front? Well at least that's fully admitted now even though it was pretty well clear anyway.
[/quote]

Of course they were connected. Pacifica was anticipated from before day one. Pacifica was definitely planned for given it would be the biggest alliance on the other side. So after Polar itself got attacked, Pacifica would definitely be the main event. It would have been dumb not to plan for them.

Think of it this way: TOP was going to be main event of the Polar-\m/ war or the TPF war for that matter.

Edited March 21, 2011 by Antoine Roquentin