The war on Evil.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

So breaking this down.

[quote name='Crymson' timestamp='1296376656' post='2610869']
I'm sorry you've been robbed of the standard awareness that would allow you to answer this question for yourself.
[/quote]

An insult instead of a valid response. Not demonstrative of examination of original statement meaning I am probably wasting my time even responding.

[quote]
Grudges have nothing to do with how I feel about the NPO. I'm simply aware of the character of your alliance.
[/quote]

Assumptions about a character of a body whose memberships, policies, and practices have changed since the events of 2009 and the Karma conflict. Assumptions that we do not learn.. that we do not evolve. Also insulting.. to both us and yourself.

[quote]
I was in your alliance for a long time, and I dealt with it as a member of allied government for even longer. I know that the lack of aggression in the relatively short period since you've been out of terms is a result of circumstances, not of changed character. Nice try.
[/quote]

An assumption you could not possibly validate based on old emotions and not at all reasonable. Cite any evidence to the contrary. Oh wait, you can't.

[quote]
Your words are rife with the same self-obsession (alliance-wise) and propaganda native internally to the NPO.
[/quote]

Oh my god, I stated my personal beliefs and opinions.. it must be propaganda.

I'm sorry Crymson, you are demonstrating the same deranged mentality of the majority of other posters in your affiliation, citing no evidence and all fluff. Rather than insulting my intelligence, would you like to actually produce some evidence that directly proves your assumptions.. and thus your own intellect on the matter?

I will not respond to you directly until you can do so. Also, stating assumptions as fact when they are not.. is also evil. It's a lie.. disingenuous. Please come back armed with a shred of truth.

I am a member of my alliance for the past 2 years. I have seen it change.. I have seen it learn and I am glad for it. Karma actually did us some good.

Edited January 30, 2011 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Joe Izuzu]

[quote name='Crymson' timestamp='1296376656' post='2610869']
Grudges have nothing to do with how I feel about the NPO. I'm simply aware of the character of your alliance.[/quote]

[quote]I was in your alliance for a long time, and I dealt with it as a member of allied government for even longer. I know that the lack of aggression in the relatively short period since you've been out of terms is a result of circumstances, not of changed character. Nice try. [/quote]

You "know" the motivation for our lack of aggression because you have infallible insight into our thoughts and feelings. Nice. You must be the most amazing mentalist on Planet Bob. It is so comforting to know that someone who has the powers of The Amazing Kreskin is available when we have questions as to the true motivations of other alliances. Do you charge a flat fee for your services, or is it at an hourly rate?

Edited January 30, 2011 by Joe Izuzu

[Locke]

[quote name='Crymson' timestamp='1296376656' post='2610869']
I was in your alliance for a long time, and I dealt with it as a member of allied government for even longer. I know that the lack of aggression in the relatively short period since you've been out of terms is a result of circumstances, not of changed character. Nice try.
[/quote]
And yet, you were neither in the period the changes occurred.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

[quote name='Locke' timestamp='1296377599' post='2610883']
And yet, you were neither in the period the changes occurred.
[/quote]

In fact he could be said to be part of the evil we purged... manifesting itself in the visage of another hostile alliance attacking aggressively and without cause.

Edited January 30, 2011 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Ragashingo]

[quote name='Maelstrom Vortex' timestamp='1296376977' post='2610872']
Replies to Crymson.
[/quote]

Well played. Hitting them with the truth is y'alls best way out of this.

Crymson may be right, maybe NPO was biding its time until it could return to power, but the only thing he or anyone who supports Doomhouse can say is "We [i]knew[/i] you would eventually..." as if them [i]knowing[/i] what would happen in the future somehow counts as facts these days. Their argument that NPO's modified behavior is only the result of past punishment (aka The Karma War) is laughable as well. One would hope that the war they won in the name of adjusting Pacifica's admittedly outrageous behavior [i]actually[/i] ended up correcting y'alls behavior.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

[quote name='Ragashingo' timestamp='1296377770' post='2610887']
Well played. Hitting them with the truth is y'alls best way out of this.

Crymson may be right, maybe NPO was biding its time until it could return to power, but the only thing he or anyone who supports Doomhouse can say is "We [i]knew[/i] you would eventually..." as if them [i]knowing[/i] what would happen in the future somehow counts as facts these days. Their argument that NPO's modified behavior is only the result of past punishment (aka The Karma War) is laughable as well. One would hope that the war they won in the name of adjusting Pacifica's admittedly outrageous behavior [i]actually[/i] ended up correcting y'alls behavior.
[/quote]

Trust me, I love it more than anyone when the truth IS on our side. Personally, I hope it stays that way. There is no hotter searing light.

Edited January 30, 2011 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Monster]

[quote name='Omniscient1' timestamp='1296375197' post='2610834']
How long is "a while ago" because if you'd like I'll go dig up some posts from around four months ago when I was being mocked for my anti-Pacifican views. The point is I hate them too. Sure they have a pompous attitude and are complete dicks, but they didn't deserve to be randomly attacked out of the blue.

Polar also didn't deserve to be targeted for fun. People like me and Arsenal and many others who have constantly been on your side since at the very least Karma didn't deserve to be kicked onto the opposing side so that you guys can have a little bit of fun. Who's next? GOD? RoK? Fark? Sparta? All those AAs aren't exactly walking step in step with Doomhouse and I'm sure they'd be a fun war.
[/quote]

Not what I meant. The side you were on when this started was when your mind was made up.

The war with Polar was not inevitable. I listed various examples of FA blunders they committed in FOK's DoW when the issue was raised. They were hostile to a number of alliances and they gave one of the alliances they hated a CB. If the CB was invalid, why did the principal defender of Polaris support it? It's not about walking step in step with Doomhouse or whoever. It's about not trying to do FA at all. I feel bad for Arsenal and it's not like we wanted GATO to fall on that side(I'm sure you can ask him about some discussions we had), but his bloc was heavily tied to Polar and what they did or didn't do would dictate what would happen to him unfortunately given those ties.

Edited January 30, 2011 by Antoine Roquentin

[Kalasin]

This entire OP rests upon the presupposition that morality exists, a fact of which NPO has categorically denied for years (it's a central tenet of Francoism.) The reasons why you've suddenly changed your tune are obvious to everyone and it's pathetic. If you and Polaris had some competent people running your FA you wouldn't need to bother with this sort of nonsense.

Edited January 30, 2011 by Kalasin

[Maelstrom Vortex]

[quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1296378114' post='2610892']
Not what I meant. The side you were on when this started was when your mind was made up.

The war with Polar was not inevitable. I listed various examples of FA blunders they committed in FOK's DoW when the issue was raised. They were hostile to a number of alliances and they gave one of the alliances they hated a CB. If the CB was invalid, why did the principal defender of Polaris support it? It's not about walking step in step with Doomhouse or whoever. It's about not trying to do FA at all.
[/quote]

Except all of our treaties were optional and we had the ability to negotiate with all our treaty partners. You cannot claim you knew our minds. You cannot claim to know how or what we were seeking. You couldn't be more wrong.

[Cyber Nationz]

Maelstrom Vortex,

I have a proposal for you.
Get your government to grant me membership and I will become your savior.
and will save you from the EBIL powers of Doom House

Edited January 30, 2011 by Cyber Nationz

[Monster]

[quote name='Maelstrom Vortex' timestamp='1296378278' post='2610896']
Except all of our treaties were optional and we had the ability to negotiate with all our treaty partners. You cannot claim you knew our minds. You cannot claim to know how or what we were seeking. You couldn't be more wrong.
[/quote]

Your members were out in full force and it was clear you had some stake in the conflict at least from their perspective.

[Kalasin]

[quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1296378114' post='2610892']
I feel bad for Arsenal and it's not like we wanted GATO to fall on that side(I'm sure you can ask him about some discussions we had), but his bloc was heavily tied to Polar and what they did or didn't do would dictate what would happen to him unfortunately given those ties.
[/quote]

We don't mind, or I don't, anyway. There are always opportunities after the war to move away from the Orders, and a tough war is always fun.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

[quote name='Kalasin' timestamp='1296378167' post='2610893']
This entire OP rests upon the presupposition that morality exists, a fact of which NPO has categorically denied for years (it's a central tenet of Francoism.) The reasons why you've suddenly changed your tune are obvious to everyone and it's pathetic. If you and Polaris had some competent people running your FA you wouldn't need to bother with this sort of nonsense.
[/quote]

Morality does exist to most of us. Franocism is like any other doctrine, individuals will have their own perspective about it. Yes, we've changed. That's why our tune is changing. If you expect something that is the same as it was years ago to sound verbally differently.. it's borderline going insane. This sort of nonsense? I'm sorry you do not approve of my self-expression, perhaps your attentions would be best served focused elsewhere if that is your true feeling on the subject matter? We have plenty of competent Foreign Affairs. I'm merely making a point. By all the major world religions, the actions of Doom House is evil and despicable. If you wish to actually contest my statement in the original topic instead of simply disregarding it and then stating it wasn't worth saying I'd like to hear what you have to say. I did observe that not all of us held to a religious faith. If you do not, more power to you. This thread is not for you and my original document would have obviously pointed you to that fact.

In short, please read in full before responding. Thank you.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

[quote name='Cyber Nationz' timestamp='1296378385' post='2610897']
Maelstrom Vortex,

I have a proposal for you.
Get your government to reinstate my membership and I will become your savior.
and will save you from the EBIL powers of Doom House
[/quote]

Cortath is doing well enough. Thank you for the offer, but I could not support you in such a position.

[Ragashingo]

[quote name='Kalasin' timestamp='1296378167' post='2610893']
This entire OP rests upon the presupposition that morality exists, a fact of which NPO has categorically denied for years (it's a central tenet of Francoism.) The reasons why you've suddenly changed your tune are obvious to everyone and it's pathetic. If you and Polaris had some competent people running your FA you wouldn't need to bother with this sort of nonsense.
[/quote]

Heh. Francoism always was lame. It the end it basically came down to whatever the NPO did was right. I for one applaud anyone, especially an NPOer, who is willing to look past it and is willing to live in the world of actual rights and wrongs with the rest of us. Care to add your applause to my own?

[Maelstrom Vortex]

[quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1296378425' post='2610899']
Your members were out in full force and it was clear you had some stake in the conflict at least from their perspective.
[/quote]

Out in full force?! HAH?! Where? Look at my military! Do I look out in full force to you? I've been in at this same level of military deployment for the past... 6 odd months! You were intimidated by some of the more prideful members of our alliance stating their views? I mean.. name one place where we were "out in full force".. one place where we committed ANY act of violence against ANYONE in doom house. When you can, get back to me.

[Monster]

[quote name='Kalasin' timestamp='1296378550' post='2610901']
We don't mind, or I don't, anyway. There are always opportunities after the war to move away from the Orders, and a tough war is always fun.
[/quote]

That's good to hear. I like GATO, so this was really unfortunate. GATO landing on the same side as the Orders wasn't something I wanted.

[quote name='Maelstrom Vortex' timestamp='1296378770' post='2610907']
Out in full force?! HAH?! Where? Look at my military! Do I look out in full force to you? I've been in at this same level of military deployment for the past... 6 odd months! You were intimidated by some of the more prideful members of our alliance stating their views? I mean.. name one place where we were "out in full force".. one place where we committed ANY act of violence against ANYONE in doom house. When you can, get back to me.
[/quote]

Here? Izuzu, Stuart, etc. were all heavily railing against us. You wanted us dead.

Edited January 30, 2011 by Antoine Roquentin

[Maelstrom Vortex]

[quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1296378856' post='2610909']
Here? Izuzu, Stuart, etc. were all heavily railing against us. You wanted us dead.
[/quote]

Actually, I didn't.. and from what I was aware.. most of us weren't really concerned about the conflicts at hand, we were just a building away. Your fear of the words of a couple of people prompted you to strike an entire alliance without due cause. I thought you guys would be stronger than that.

[Kalasin]

[quote name='Maelstrom Vortex' timestamp='1296378551' post='2610902']
Morality does exist to most of us. Franocism is like any other doctrine, individuals will have their own perspective about it. Yes, we've changed. That's why our tune is changing. If you expect something that is the same as it was years ago to sound verbally differently.. it's borderline going insane. This sort of nonsense? I'm sorry you do not approve of my self-expression, perhaps your attentions would be best served focused elsewhere if that is your true feeling on the subject matter? We have plenty of competent Foreign Affairs. I'm merely making a point. By all the major world religions, the actions of Doom House is evil and despicable. If you wish to actually contest my statement in the original topic instead of simply disregarding it and then stating it wasn't worth saying I'd like to hear what you have to say.
[/quote]

I read everything you wrote, and then pointed out that Pacifica's stated position for almost a decade has been that objective morality does not exist. In fact, Vladimir wrote an article on how morality and imperialism are two sides of the same coin! According to Pacifica's logic, the recent attacks on the Orders are perfectly acceptable, although Vladimir came up with some pseudo-moralistic crap about how PB and DH are destroying the Cyberverse.

[quote name='Maelstrom Vortex' timestamp='1296378551' post='2610902']
I did observe that not all of us held to a religious faith. If you do not, more power to you. This thread is not for you and my original document would have obviously pointed you to that fact.
[/quote]

OOC: Actually, I'm one of the few people on these boards who is a Christian in real life. I don't bear you any ill will or anything by the way, my hostility towards you personally is entirely IC.

[Cyber Nationz]

[quote name='Maelstrom Vortex' timestamp='1296378770' post='2610907']
Out in full force?! HAH?! Where? Look at my military! Do I look out in full force to you? I've been in at this same level of military deployment for the past... 6 odd months! You were intimidated by some of the more prideful members of our alliance stating their views? I mean.. name one place where we were "out in full force".. one place where we committed ANY act of violence against ANYONE in doom house. When you can, get back to me.
[/quote]

It is called the foresight, 6th sense among many other things

I am thinking maybe your upper tier hitting peace mode.
I mean common, if you weren't planning on getting in this war at all. Your upper tier nations wouldn't have been in peace mode.

[Monster]

[quote name='Cyber Nationz' timestamp='1296379118' post='2610915']
It is called the foresight, 6th sense among many other things

I am thinking maybe your upper tier hitting peace mode.
I mean common, if you weren't planning on getting in this war at all. Your upper tier nations wouldn't have been in peace mode.
[/quote]

Here we go and it wasn't only them. Think we would have attacked if NPO made its neutrality clear instead of actively gunning for us?

Edited January 30, 2011 by Antoine Roquentin

[Kalasin]

[quote name='Ragashingo' timestamp='1296378732' post='2610906']
Heh. Francoism always was lame. It the end it basically came down to whatever the NPO did was right. I for one applaud anyone, especially an NPOer, who is willing to look past it and is willing to live in the world of actual rights and wrongs with the rest of us. Care to add your applause to my own?
[/quote]

Certainly. When Vladimir and Cortath recant everything they've written for the past few years, and publicly state that Francoism is not Pacifica's official philosophy, I shall clap my hands red.

[Joe Izuzu]

[quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1296378425' post='2610899']
Your members were out in full force and it was clear you had some stake in the conflict at least from their perspective.
[/quote]

I was certainly vocal in my denouncement of VE's CB against Polar, mostly because of indignation at what I still perceive to be a rather enormous display of hypocrisy on their part. But NPO has no treaty with Polar and membership is certainly not unanimous in wanting to reestablish ties with them. I believe that ambivalence is shared by Polar as well. I personally have always liked Polar, but that is just me. I was a supporter of Grub's campaign against M, because I thought it was the morally correct thing to do. By the same token, I was certainly not a fan of his betrayal of TOP and Co. I guess I am a bad Francoist, but I try to be morally consistent.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

[quote name='Cyber Nationz' timestamp='1296379118' post='2610915']
It is called the foresight, 6th sense among many other things

I am thinking maybe your upper tier hitting peace mode.
I mean common, if you weren't planning on getting in this war at all. Your upper tier nations wouldn't have been in peace mode.
[/quote]

We expected someone might try to take advantage of our position. Our suspicions were well served. Even before I was given the orders to hit peace I was collecting daily wondering which of the people that held old grudges against us would hit us. Especially when I saw how the war on Polar started. The funny part is, my military commanders were calling me 'paranoid' for it at the time. I was even checking the game every 4 hours to see if someone attacked us. It was the only reason I managed to make it into peace before/during the attacks against us. I'm not certain exactly when the first attacks began so I'm not sure which it was.

We were being prepared, but we did not stand up our military. It was no cause for your aggressive, evil, violence against us. You had no cause. We do have the right to defend ourselves and our sovereignty if it is at risk and it might have been. You do not have the right to strike pre-emptively because you are simply paranoid otherwise everyone would use that every conflict. Religions defend the right to self-defense and tolerance, but not to aggression. DH is evil.

Edited January 30, 2011 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Ragashingo]

[quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1296379220' post='2610916']
Here we go and it wasn't only them. Think we would have attacked if NPO made its neutrality clear instead of actively gunning for us?
[/quote]

By actively gunning you mean... not actively doing anything aggressive. You know, except that early peace mode that someone mentioned earlier. That was an aggressive move, obviously.