The GM's Court

[Michael McBride]

Considering that Shammy and I agreed during the Cuba dispute that the Dobbs Doctrine only now applied east of the Mississippi River, there is no dispute here. I was busy at the time of the claim, there won't be any contest from me.

[TheShammySocialist]

[quote name='Pravus Ingruo' timestamp='1315243511' post='2795340']
Considering that Shammy and I agreed during the Cuba dispute that the Dobbs Doctrine only now applied east of the Mississippi River, there is no dispute here. I was busy at the time of the claim, there won't be any contest from me.
[/quote]

And thank you for that clarification.

[King Timmy]

Any chance you could get KM to post any casualties at all? This is the post, I think they're a bit low currently i.e. non-existent.

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=104771&view=findpost&p=2796692

Also Agressivenutmeg's survival rate was very high. In my view a converted merchant taking three hits from torpedos or hypersonic missiles is going to leave a handful of survivors at best if not just one or two. They would be in the North Sea and therefore survival is going to be very unlikely once in the water and they would have been intercepted at a distance from the shore, not within swimming range. How his vehicles managed to swim to shore is a mystery to me.

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=104771&view=findpost&p=2797302

Edited September 9, 2011 by King Timmy

[king of cochin]

Yes, Martens has to post his casualties from Timmy's defenses and counter attacks before the mentioned post and its actions could be considered acceptable. There seems to be a fair amount of lol teching by Martens wherein he is claiming greater technical superiority over Timmy. This is not World War Two, reconnaissance does not depend on recon scouts any more and neither does bigger and heavier tanks automatically means victory. Martens has to RP proper losses. Besides Timmy would also have the Home defender advantage.

[Voodoo Nova]

Ignore this post.

This includes you Cochin and Cent.

Edited September 9, 2011 by Voodoo Nova

[king of cochin]

[quote name='Voodoo Nova' timestamp='1315577765' post='2797391']
Where is this rule/guideline?
[/quote]

It is neither a rule, nor a guideline. It is just a common sense piece of advice.

[Centurius]

[quote name='Voodoo Nova' timestamp='1315577765' post='2797391']
Where is this rule/guideline?
[/quote]

It's a common sense rule. An army fighting on its own soil has a distinct advantage compared to an invading army. In general the local population will also be willing to help native soldiers more.

[Triyun]

[quote name='king of cochin' timestamp='1315577397' post='2797390']
Yes, Martens has to post his casualties from Timmy's defenses and counter attacks before the mentioned post and its actions could be considered acceptable. There seems to be a fair amount of lol teching by Martens wherein he is claiming greater technical superiority over Timmy. This is not World War Two, reconnaissance does not depend on recon scouts any more and neither does bigger and heavier tanks automatically means victory. Martens has to RP proper losses. Besides Timmy would also have the Home defender advantage.
[/quote]

Just an FYI when he's referring to the scouts for BVR attacks, I'm pretty sure based on my war with him he's referring to rocket launched drones being 'scout rockets'. Basically a SRUAV system.

That said he could be a lot more specific about what he's actually talking about and how he's doing it so as to avoid the perception of lol-teching that part of the post.

[Aggressivenutmeg]

[quote name='King Timmy' timestamp='1315576317' post='2797386']
Also Agressivenutmeg's survival rate was very high. In my view a converted merchant taking three hits from torpedos or hypersonic missiles is going to leave a handful of survivors at best if not just one or two. They would be in the North Sea and therefore survival is going to be very unlikely once in the water and they would have been intercepted at a distance from the shore, not within swimming range. How his vehicles managed to swim to shore is a mystery to me.

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=104771&view=findpost&p=2797302
[/quote]

I will edit the casualties, however I still dispute that the Shetlands is in missiles range. They are just under 200km appart. Because Timmy was unspecific about the missile I will use the harpoon as an example, Its range is about 124 km.

There is more then 1 ship, going to each landing spot, also, ships dont sink instantly, many of the guys would have had time to reach life boats.

Edited September 9, 2011 by Aggressivenutmeg

[Zoot Zoot]

That is a harpoon.

What about a TASM? Don't deliberately pick a missile with a short missile range. Timmy also has hypersonic cruise missiles with a similar range and anti ship ballistic missiles to fire at your fleet.

Suck it up man, you it owned plain and simple.

[Kankou]

[quote name='Zoot Zoot' timestamp='1315641463' post='2797931']
What about a TASM? [/quote]
Not supersonic.

[quote name='Zoot Zoot' timestamp='1315641463' post='2797931']Timmy also has hypersonic cruise missiles with a similar range [/quote]
What kind of missile is this? Has there been any RP of developments?

[quote name='Zoot Zoot' timestamp='1315641463' post='2797931']anti ship ballistic missiles[/quote]
None of them were fired.

[Zoot Zoot]

[quote name='Kankou' timestamp='1315642223' post='2797939']
Not supersonic.


What kind of missile is this? Has there been any RP of developments?


None of them were fired.
[/quote]

TASM is not supersonic correct, I will mail you a medal. Then again you might just miss it as much as you missed my point. A post is easily editted and as "Slightly" converted container ships do not have anti missile capibilities, it would still result in the destruction of his fleet. KH-55 anti ship missile would reach his fleet no problem.

Second point, apparently he has RP'd developing them, but I cant find the thread, so here is my hypersonic cruise missile with stealth elements that is in FULL service across the British military. http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=103045&view=findpost&p=2741850 Specifically, the BGM-111 Stormshadow II.

Your third point, like I said, a post is easily editted.

And by the way AGNM, the Boeing Harpoon has a range of 240km, not 124km.

So yeah, your fleet is toast broski.

EDIT

If you want me to list every anti ship missile that can hit those ships, I will do.

Edited September 10, 2011 by Zoot Zoot

[Kankou]

[quote name='Zoot Zoot' timestamp='1315643887' post='2797947']
TASM is not supersonic correct, I will mail you a medal. Then again you might just miss it as much as you missed my point. A post is easily editted and as "Slightly" converted container ships do not have anti missile capibilities, it would still result in the destruction of his fleet. KH-55 anti ship missile would reach his fleet no problem.[/quote]
Editing would not be allowed after the fact, unless there is agreement between the two parties. Furthermore, the KH-55 is an air-launched missile, meaning no connection to the actual RP at hand (sub launches).


[quote name='Zoot Zoot' timestamp='1315643887' post='2797947']Second point, apparently he has RP'd developing them, but I cant find the thread, so here is my hypersonic cruise missile with stealth elements that is in FULL service across the British military. http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=103045&view=findpost&p=2741850 Specifically, the BGM-111 Stormshadow II.[/quote]
Assuming the BGM-111 is based on the Tomahawk, you cannot get that past 150 km due to the lack of fuel. This is partly why any RPs of submarine-launched cruise missiles being hypersonic while having the size and range of a Tomahawk is BS: The fuel consumption makes that simply impossible.


[quote name='Zoot Zoot' timestamp='1315643887' post='2797947']Your third point, like I said, a post is easily editted.[/quote]
Not even worth arguing again.


[quote name='Zoot Zoot' timestamp='1315643887' post='2797947']So yeah, your fleet is toast broski.[/quote]
On the contrary, every indication shows that Timmy does not and could not have a submarine-launched hypersonic cruise missile with the range to reach the Shetlands from his current position.




Basically, Timmy $%&@ed up with his RP, both on technology and strategy. He'll have to go after those ships going to the Shetlands (if he even has the chance, given he already fired and also the ships would have already landed by now) using other methods besides the useless Astutes.

Edited September 10, 2011 by Kankou

[Zoot Zoot]

[quote name='Kankou' timestamp='1315645152' post='2797953']
Editing would not be allowed after the fact, unless there is agreement between the two parties. Furthermore, the KH-55 is an air-launched missile, meaning no connection to the actual RP at hand (sub launches).



Assuming the BGM-111 is based on the Tomahawk, you cannot get that past 150 km due to the lack of fuel. This is partly why any RPs of submarine-launched cruise missiles being hypersonic while having the size and range of a Tomahawk is BS: The fuel consumption makes that simply impossible.



Not even worth arguing again.



On the contrary, every indication shows that Timmy does not and could not have a submarine-launched hypersonic cruise missile with the range to reach the Shetlands from his current position.




Basically, Timmy $%&@ed up with his RP, both on technology and strategy. He'll have to go after those ships going to the Shetlands (if he even has the chance, given he already fired and also the ships would have already landed by now) using other methods besides the useless Astutes.
[/quote]

The BGM-111 Stormshadow II, is not based on the Tomahawk.
Editting should be allowed because the point was raised in the GM's court, and is being contested, which generally means there is space for editting. If he changed his attack entirely, then fair enough, but changing one or two words in regards to the weapon used in the attack is fine IMO, but a GM would have to give an opinion on that paticular case.

Like I said, the Harpoon has a 240km range, not 125km. An exocet can be launched by a submarine aswell and has a range of 180km. The BrahMos ramjet missile can be submarine launched and has a range of 290km.

So his attack is still valid regardless of whatever excuse you can come up with Kankou, All it takes is for one or two words to be changed and the post canot be contested anymore, but it all depends on the GM who handles the case in question, but its a post easily solved.

[Aggressivenutmeg]

[quote name='Zoot Zoot' timestamp='1315654996' post='2797985']
Like I said, the Harpoon has a 240km range, not 125km.
[/quote]

Were are you getting these numbers from? Every source I find puts there range at about 60nm(111km), but it is besides the point.

[quote name='Zoot Zoot' timestamp='1315654996' post='2797985']
The BrahMos ramjet missile can be submarine launched and has a range of 290km.
[/quote]

Thats a cruise missile, not a anti-ship missile.

[quote name='Zoot Zoot' timestamp='1315654996' post='2797985']
So his attack is still valid regardless of whatever excuse you can come up with Kankou, All it takes is for one or two words to be changed and the post canot be contested anymore, but it all depends on the GM who handles the case in question, but its a post easily solved.
[/quote]

I'm disputing that there would be casualties, not that he couldn't attack

[Zoot Zoot]

[quote name='Aggressivenutmeg' timestamp='1315655987' post='2797987']
Were are you getting these numbers from? Every source I find puts there range at about 60nm(111km), but it is besides the point.



Thats a cruise missile, not a anti-ship missile.



I'm disputing that there would be casualties, not that he couldn't attack
[/quote]

Point one > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-ship_missile#Comparison
7th down from the top.

The BrahMos is a multi platform anti ship cruise missile, which can be fired from submarines, which is also a ramjet missile which puts its speed at... really !@#$@#$ fast , It is also listed on the same list as above, second from the bottom.

There would be near to no survivors to the attack if the GM's permit Timmy to edit his weapon of choice.

[Captain Enema]

Nuts..

You'd still be coming ashore in life boats, with light infantry weapons, scattered all over the place and with casualties even without the ASM strikes. Your men would be cut off, unsupported, no supplies beyond what they can carry on themselves, and in a heck of a state from just getting their ship shot out from under them.

Now getting to the specifics of Timmy's defense. He has the home ground, which means he's on high alert after suffering attacks from two foreign powers. He saw you coming and got the first shot off, though how he differentiated between you and any other civilian ships in the area is an interesting question.

How many ships did you trot out for this op?

Setting that aside, he apparently did see you, giving him plenty of time to activate his local Territorial Army forces and have them lying in wait. Territorial Forces that would be in far better shape than you are. Even if you did stagger ashore with 1000 men, they'd be easy pickings for a rifle company or two that is dug in and supported with mortars.

Something well.. well within reach of Timmy.

So yeah... I'd tone it down a hair bro.. your men aren't first rate soldiers.. they just escaped a ship that wast shot out of the water by 3 torpedoes.

At best.. if I was a GM I'd allow you the 1000 men or so you've posted, but only a handful of them would be in any shape to fight.

That's just me.

AS for the missiles, not sure I'm going to get into that argument because I really don't see it as relevant.

And if it was me I'd let the missile attack be decided by whatever is in standard use by the British Navy at this present day or whatever is in Timmy's factbook inventory if he has one, but only if the time stamp shows the factbook has not been edited quite recently. I would not allow him to simply edit it for the missile flavor of his choice.

Edited September 10, 2011 by Tidy Bowl Man

[Kankou]

[quote name='Zoot Zoot' timestamp='1315654996' post='2797985']
The BGM-111 Stormshadow II, is not based on the Tomahawk.[/quote]
Then what missile would be similar to it? Just curious.


[quote name='Zoot Zoot' timestamp='1315654996' post='2797985']Editting should be allowed because the point was raised in the GM's court, and is being contested, which generally means there is space for editting. If he changed his attack entirely, then fair enough, but changing one or two words in regards to the weapon used in the attack is fine IMO, but a GM would have to give an opinion on that paticular case.[/quote]
Any changing of the current post would drastically change the attack entirely. It's a very simple principle that when you launch a hypersonic missile from a submarine, you launch a hypersonic missile from a submarine, and nothing else. This is unambiguous, even more so than the failure nukings done in the Korean War where we have do BS it so that the "intent" was to be recognized. In this case, it's not a problem of intent or anything: It's a pure strategic blunder based on the thoughts that "hypersonic is better, so I'll use it!" without consideration as to military and technological realities.


[quote name='Zoot Zoot' timestamp='1315654996' post='2797985']Like I said, the Harpoon has a 240km range, not 125km. An exocet can be launched by a submarine aswell and has a range of 180km. [/quote]
Neither are hypersonic, and therefore does not imply.


[quote name='Zoot Zoot' timestamp='1315654996' post='2797985']The BrahMos ramjet missile can be submarine launched and has a range of 290km.[/quote]
The submarine-launched version is still in development, and what's more, the planned version is half the size of the regular version, to fit into a Kilo-class submarine, making its range limited. Try doing some research.


[quote name='Zoot Zoot' timestamp='1315654996' post='2797985']So his attack is still valid regardless of whatever excuse you can come up with Kankou, All it takes is for one or two words to be changed and the post canot be contested anymore, but it all depends on the GM who handles the case in question, but its a post easily solved.
[/quote]
The post cannot be contested in that it shows just how ignorant Timmy is in using missiles. We're not talking about doing ground explosions of nukes when you're intending to get at underground bunkers: We're talking about using hypersonic missiles which would never have the range to even reach its intended target in the first place due to [b]physical[/b] realities.



I am pretty tired of people combining the best stats into a chimera that is impossible to implicate, without research, and then getting away with it. You arguing for Timmy with irrelevant or inaccurate evidence isn't even worth calling it as evidence. The only option here that should be followed is for those hypersonic missiles to fall into the sea, and then Timmy blasting at the invasion forces using regular methods instead of trying to be a big boy and tinkering with toys he shouldn't be playing with.

If I sound elitist, it's because the standard of RPing as fallen too low. We really need to get rid of inaccurate writing which doesn't even have the worth of being called amateurish. I'm not asking that we all be someone in the military. All I would wish is that people pay attention to what they write and not try to get away by using supposed intent and ignorance to get around mistakes.

Edited September 10, 2011 by Kankou

[Captain Enema]

You are right about the standards falling way to low. All those Anime Japanese cats running around the place and all.

[Kankou]

[quote name='Tidy Bowl Man' timestamp='1315658361' post='2798006']
You are right about the standards falling way to low. All those Anime Japanese cats running around the place and all.

[/quote]
Or those supposed cosplayers who are in fact serious enough to put all opposition into concentration camps

[Captain Enema]

[quote name='Kankou' timestamp='1315658556' post='2798008']
Or those supposed cosplayers who are in fact serious enough to put all opposition into concentration camps
[/quote]

That'd be a grand rp.

[Centurius]

Kankou and Zoot take it to pm. The GM's Court is not intended for whining.

On the matter at hand, while Timmy's post could be more precise he gets the benefit of the doubt. The missiles are in as different navies in rp have used submarine launched and ship launched cruise missiles with hypersonic capabilities and extended range. These missiles have all had scientific backing and as such England can have those designs too.

On reposting, that is not for a GM to decide. Retcons are traditionally discussed between the warring parties, not GMs and certainly not the peanut gallery.

[Zoot Zoot]

[quote name='Kankou' timestamp='1315658061' post='2798000']
Then what missile would be similar to it? Just curious.

Whine whine whine whine whine
BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW
[/quote]

Im only addressing the first question because the rest is just a big ol Baw.

Its based off the RL Stormshadow Cruise missile in service with the RAF, The stormshadow II is a faster version, with stealth technology and can be used from air, ground and naval platforms.

[Kankou]

[quote name='Zoot Zoot' timestamp='1315664878' post='2798044']
Im only addressing the first question because the rest is just a big ol Baw.[/quote]
The rest is just something that will bite you in the future


[quote name='Zoot Zoot' timestamp='1315664878' post='2798044']Its based off the RL Stormshadow Cruise missile in service with the RAF, The stormshadow II is a faster version, with stealth technology and can be used from air, ground and naval platforms.[/quote]
So basically, assuming you haven't made this larger, you're going to have a similar problem as Timmy (basically, a shorter range).


[quote name='Centurius' timestamp='1315662706' post='2798030']
On the matter at hand, while Timmy's post could be more precise he gets the benefit of the doubt. The missiles are in as different navies in rp have used submarine launched and ship launched cruise missiles with hypersonic capabilities and extended range. These missiles have all had scientific backing and as such England can have those designs too. [/quote]
Could an example of a submarine launched hypersonic cruise missile having a range of more than 150km be given? It seems to me that this ruling is based on the existence of such a missile. Even during the Korean war (perhaps the highest concentration of firepower in recent history), there has not been a hypersonic cruise missile being launched from a submarine.

Edited September 10, 2011 by Kankou

[Zoot Zoot]

[quote name='Kankou' timestamp='1315670080' post='2798083']
BAWWWWWWW


So basically, assuming you haven't made this larger, you're going to have a similar problem as Timmy (basically, a shorter range).



BAWWWWWWWW
[/quote]

I fail to see how I am going to have a problem, I refer back to Cents previous statement. I will even quote it so you dont miss it this time.
[quote]The missiles are in as different navies in rp have used submarine launched and ship launched cruise missiles with hypersonic [b]capabilities and extended range.[/b] These missiles have all had scientific backing and as such England can have those designs too. [/quote]

If youw ant to carry on BAWWWWing and trying to belittle me, then be my guest and PM me. But your just arguing for the sake of arguing now.