The GM's Court

[Minilla Island]

[quote name='Lynneth' timestamp='1307811898' post='2729274']
[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v284/Lynneth_del_Serpentas/AE/Thing343.png[/img]

Requesting Spy operation against Minilla Island;
False Flag, to fake one of my ships being sunk by an MI submarine.
70% chance. :V
[/quote]

Question: Since when has IN-GAME spying been permitted??? Is this not an act of war IN-GAME?

[king of cochin]

[quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1307904111' post='2729973']
That isn't the issue Cochin. The issue is Voodoo's attack on Zargathia's satellites was CLEARLY in response to Zargathia firing on his troops. He explicitly RPed as such. What was done here was to nullify the reasoning for Voodoo firing defensively and changing the firing to offensive which was out of whack with what he was explicitly doing. Either wipe Voodoo's entire post or none at all. The GMs simply do not have the right to alter IC strategy or tactics of another player so as to benefit one side of a dispute politically by changing who fired the first shot. If its the ruling of the GM that he had no military in Xinyan, than his entire post should be wiped and he should be given the opportunity to make an IC decision on how he responds based on that.
[/quote]

Voodoo has the right to respond to Zargathia's entry into his protectorate. However to respond militarily, he needs to have military deployed in Xinyan right? You are right though that a post cannot be wiped partially. I recommend that the entire post be wiped with Voodoo needing to post a fresh response to the incident. Any posts referencing Voodoo's hereby wiped post could also be considered null.

[Centurius]

[quote name='king of cochin' timestamp='1307926914' post='2730202']
Voodoo has the right to respond to Zargathia's entry into his protectorate. However to respond militarily, he needs to have military deployed in Xinyan right? You are right though that a post cannot be wiped partially. I recommend that the entire post be wiped with Voodoo needing to post a fresh response to the incident. Any posts referencing Voodoo's hereby wiped post could also be considered null.
[/quote]

Confirming this ruling.

[Centurius]

[quote name='Minilla Island' timestamp='1307926900' post='2730201']
Question: Since when has IN-GAME spying been permitted??? Is this not an act of war IN-GAME?
[/quote]

He never actually pushed the whole spy button, watching the screen is not an in-game act of war, and if it were for cnrp purposes we wouldn't give a $%&@.

[Kankou]

[quote name='Minilla Island' timestamp='1307926900' post='2730201']
Question: Since when has IN-GAME spying been permitted??? Is this not an act of war IN-GAME?
[/quote]
Unless you're blind.... You can see that Lynneth cannot do a IG spy operation on you even if he wanted to, because you are far below his range. Really, are you that unequipped to play CN or something?

[Zoot Zoot]

[quote name='Minilla Island' timestamp='1307926900' post='2730201']
Question: Since when has IN-GAME spying been permitted??? Is this not an act of war IN-GAME?
[/quote]

He doesn't actually IG spy on you, he just needs the percentage of success and the timestamp to get fair rolls. No actual IG actions are taken.

For a player who has been here much, much linger than I have I'm surprised you didn't know this, then again you post once a month so it wouldn't surprise me.

[Executive Minister]

[quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1307898486' post='2729910']
So let me get this straight. As a GM you are taking the initiative to ALTER events to make Voodoo the aggressor? This has to be gross GM abuse. If you are going to alter the moves, you cannot void the basis for a decision but leave a decision in place so as to benefit one side or another politically.
[/quote]


[quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1307904111' post='2729973']
That isn't the issue Cochin. The issue is Voodoo's attack on Zargathia's satellites was [b]CLEARLY in response to Zargathia firing on his troops.[/b] He explicitly RPed as such. What was done here was to nullify the reasoning for Voodoo firing defensively and changing the firing to offensive which was out of whack with what he was explicitly doing. Either wipe Voodoo's entire post or none at all. The GMs simply do not have the right to alter IC strategy or tactics of another player so as to benefit one side of a dispute politically by changing who fired the first shot. If its the ruling of the GM that he had no military in Xinyan, than his entire post should be wiped and he should be given the opportunity to make an IC decision on how he responds based on that.
[/quote]


[quote name='Amyante' timestamp='1307750140' post='2728873']
OOC: And almost one RL month later...

IC:

After several messages sent to the leadership of the Xinyan Republic had been left unanswered, and no sign of an active government even being active in the region in the first place, four platoons of Zargathian troops crossed the border near Manzhouli to make their way to the capital. Though expectations were generally optimistic, military bases in the area were put on alert just in case. One of the Zargathian satellites relocated its position to keep a good view on the soldiers and their surroundings, and though the APCs used the available roads they remained in contact with their home bases at all times as a safety precaution.
[/quote]

[quote name='Voodoo Nova' timestamp='1307751441' post='2728885']
**Classified**
Every Novakian ally was notified of the assault on Novakian protectorate territory and was requested to assist.

[b]Soloman ordered troops to wait until being fired upon. [/b]An anti-satellite missile was fired at the Zargathain satellite over the protectorate region.[b] A squadron of bombers were giving their targets of last known coordinates of platoons entering the territory and took off towards them. They were assisted by two of the fighter squadrons in the area.[/b] Novaki military outfits in the UFE were put in to high alert to prepare for war.
[/quote]


Triyun, if you can show me in this post where Amyante fired upon Voodoo's troops, I'll admit that I am grossly abusing my GM powers.

Voodoo has fired the first shot regardless of whether or not his troops were in the area. He fired the anti-satellite missile.

Edited June 13, 2011 by Executive Minister

[Centurius]

[quote name='Executive Minister' timestamp='1307931077' post='2730265']
Triyun, if you can show me in this post where Amyante fired upon Voodoo's troops, I'll admit that I am grossly abusing my GM powers.

Voodoo has fired the first shot regardless of whether or not his troops were in the area. He fired the anti-satellite missile.
[/quote]
That missile was wiped because we don't wipe parts of posts. If something goes all does

[Executive Minister]

[quote name='Centurius' timestamp='1307936715' post='2730333']
That missile was wiped because we don't wipe parts of posts. If something goes all does
[/quote]

No no, i'm addressing my abuse of GM powers. Just a simple PR action, wanna keep the faith of the proletariat behind me.


EDIT: I'm also confused with this all or nothing mentality. Isn't it written in the Map thread that there are certain circumstances were parts of posts are wiped? Feature impossibilities draws to mind (yes, i know that's regarding newly allowed tech, but the concept of partially wiping posts is certainly not as alien and you or cochin make it out to be)

Edited June 13, 2011 by Executive Minister

[Centurius]

[quote name='Executive Minister' timestamp='1307936789' post='2730336']
No no, i'm addressing my abuse of GM powers. Just a simple PR action, wanna keep the faith of the proletariat behind me.


EDIT: I'm also confused with this all or nothing mentality. Isn't it written in the Map thread that there are certain circumstances were parts of posts are wiped? Feature impossibilities draws to mind (yes, i know that's regarding newly allowed tech, but the concept of partially wiping posts is certainly not as alien and you or cochin make it out to be)
[/quote]

Comparing the 2 is quite frankly stupid. One is about tech we do not allow the other about a misunderstanding about deployments.

[Executive Minister]

[quote name='Centurius' timestamp='1307937279' post='2730342']
Comparing the 2 is quite frankly stupid. One is about tech we do not allow the other about a misunderstanding about deployments.
[/quote]

No, it isnt stupid. You just told me we either wipe posts entirely or not at all, and I just showed you an instance of that concept being disproved.

My concern now is this. We are not to use wipes to put Voodoo at a disadvantage, a disadvantage that was caused by his failure to comprehend that Amyante did not fire on his troops. I showed you the posts in question. He was not fired upon, that missile was fired in a first strike. That missile would not be changed if there were or were not any of voodoo's troops in the protectorate, regardless of us wiping anything. By removing this missile, we are putting him at an advantage.

Edited June 13, 2011 by Executive Minister

[Triyun]

Thats hardly true, because NEITHER would in fact have fired if there were no troops. According to the standard laws of war, if a foreign military power makes an unauthorized entry into territory which you occupy that is in and of itself an attack, rules of engagement are extremely clear on this matter. The second Amyante crossed the border had Voodoo had troops there, that could credibly called that action alone whether a shot was fired or not an aggressive action. If you remove the troops that alters that scenario and thusly a major motivator with or without shots fired (I believe its credible enough to say its fired but thats beside the point).

[Executive Minister]

[quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1307939134' post='2730375']
Thats hardly true, because NEITHER would in fact have fired if there were no troops.[/quote]

No one fired period, even when there 'were' troops in the area. Amyante moved troops in, and did not post any inkling of actively engaging in combat with anyone.

Voodoo never fired in both

a) him thinking he had troops there OOC'ly, as he ordered them to fire only when fired upon.

b) now, since i've wiped them.

[quote] According to the standard laws of war, if a foreign military power makes an unauthorized entry into territory which you occupy that is in and of itself an attack, rules of engagement are extremely clear on this matter.
The second Amyante crossed the border had Voodoo had troops there, that could credibly called that action alone whether a shot was fired or not an aggressive action.[/quote]

Exactly why his missile should not be wiped.

Under my sole ruling (disregarding Cochin and Cent), Voodoo has no troops in the area, but has called it his protectorate. Amyante walked troops into Voodoo's supposed protectorate. Voodoo fires a missile at Amyante's satellite.

Amyante violated the protectorate unknowingly in IC, and voodoo fired the missile. Amyante made an aggressive action by crossing into the protectorate, and voodoo responded the only way he could IC.

[quote] If you remove the troops that alters that scenario and thusly a major motivator with or without shots fired (I believe its credible enough to say its fired but thats beside the point).
[/quote]

The major motivator is Amyante's troops entering voodoo's protectorate.

Again, we are not to put Voodoo at a disadvantage, i say we are not to put him at an advantage. If we didnt wipe anything and allowed voodoo to have troops in the area, we would have the same scenario -

Amyante crosses into the protectorate, and neither amyante nor voodoo fire upon one another. But amyante violated the protectorate, and voodoo launched the missile.

Edited June 13, 2011 by Executive Minister

[Triyun]

Again, I find your entire logic to be completely without merit. Voodoo may not choose to pursue the same course if he lacks ground troops in the area, and thus the annexation could be taken a fait accompli on Amyante's part. There are also other scenarios. It should always be up to the player what they choose to do based on the situation as it exists, not up to the GM partially. Fortunately you've been overruled in this regard by Cochin and Cent's better judgement.

[Kankou]

We should look at this step by step.


1. After all the rulings and counterrulings, the general consensus is that Voodoo did not have any troops in Xinyan, and that (uncertain of this) there was never any public announcements concerning the protectorate (given the lack of any sort of RP concerning Xinyan except preparation to send forces).


2. Amyante sent less than 250 troops across the border at a pretty busy traffic area (Manzhouli being where almost all major traffic between Zargathia and Xinyan was conducted), meaning that even with all the nice fancy intelligence that Voodoo/Cent have, I doubt they would be able to spot several APCs that easily. It's my opinion that only Triyun, myself, and possibly Cochin would have had the concentration of satellites to be able to catch this movement as fast as it has been RPed.

(On the side, I think it's about time we do something about all the massive satellite systems and countermeasures that exist. Serious, it seems like the world of CNRP has about 5 times the number of satellites of RL, and already in RL, there's been enough trouble with satellites being crowded.)


3. Given that Voodoo seems to lack any sort of projection power both in the military and intelligence sense, I cannot see him doing any sort of response until Zargathian troops have taken hold of the capital of Xinyan (RL Altan-Emeel, coordinates: 48°38′24″N 116°49′12″E), and even then, I hardly doubt that Voodoo could have done anything to prevent full occupation of Xinyan, since even if the Zargathian troops had gone at only 40km/h, it would have reached the capital in just over 3 hours (the distance from Manzhouli to Altan-Emeel being only 127 km).


Conclusion: All the facts combined seems to indicate that we need to wipe everything after my post (http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=101687&view=findpost&p=2728881), and also prevent the god-like instant responses on the part of Voodoo and his allies. There was no time frame for there to have been any sort of retaliation, including the anti-satellite missile (seriously, just how did Voodoo even know that it was that particular Zargathian satellite monitoring the troop movements), and as such there is no basis for forcing Voodoo to RP the missile launch, since by any sort of measures Voodoo could not have done such a thing.



Musing on the side: We also need to do something about all the nice god-like missiles that a certain group of people seem to like using. There is no way those missiles can be that effective in such short frame times, unless there has been a long preparation period. We should discuss this in a consolidated thread, addressing satellites and missiles in general.

Edited June 13, 2011 by Kankou

[Mogar]

i kind of agree with this^ you should have to at least RP something involving your missiles ahead of time, instead of just "lol i shot magic missilez", i can play D&D IRL, i dont need to do it here as well.

[Centurius]

[quote name='Kankou' timestamp='1307941647' post='2730412']
Musing on the side: We also need to do something about all the nice god-like missiles that a certain group of people seem to like using. There is no way those missiles can be that effective in such short frame times, unless there has been a long preparation period. We should discuss this in a consolidated thread, addressing satellites and missiles in general.
[/quote]

Gotta love Chinese and American defense projects, all those missiles from the M-51s to the ASBM are in rl production or advanced state of development. As for satellites, they circle around the earth quite fast, you don't need that many to know everything that is happening.

[HHAYD]

[quote name='Centurius' timestamp='1307970374' post='2730532']
As for satellites, they circle around the earth quite fast, you don't need that many to know everything that is happening.
[/quote]
The question, how long would it take for one to complete a trip around the earth. It still takes time for satellites to move into position.

[Lynneth]

[quote name='Centurius' timestamp='1307970374' post='2730532']
[b]Gotta love Chinese and American defense projects, all those missiles from the M-51s to the ASBM are in rl production or advanced state of development. [/b]As for satellites, they circle around the earth quite fast, you don't need that many to know everything that is happening.
[/quote]
They still mess up the planet's orbit needlessly >:|
Why don't people think of space shenanigans? Why do they have to pollute it by shooting satkillers? D=

[Centurius]

[quote name='Lynneth' timestamp='1307971018' post='2730537']
They still mess up the planet's orbit needlessly >:|
Why don't people think of space shenanigans? Why do they have to pollute it by shooting satkillers? D=
[/quote]

Hey, A-Sat is not my weapon of choice It's still possible though.

[Kankou]

[quote name='Centurius' timestamp='1307970374' post='2730532']
Gotta love Chinese and American defense projects, all those missiles from the M-51s to the ASBM are in rl production or advanced state of development. [/quote]
My point was that they're being used like Katyushas when it would take a long time to get coordinates read and all that !@#$. The current response time and accuracy is just..... No matter how much technology develops, there is still a limit to things.

[quote name='Centurius' timestamp='1307970374' post='2730532']As for satellites, they circle around the earth quite fast, you don't need that many to know everything that is happening.
[/quote]

For the amount of accuracy over a world-wide coverage we're getting in this RP? It's already hard to maintain the 900-something satellites in RL orbit currently, with the US having around 75 or so spy satellites. We all know that the hyperpower US cannot cover all that's going on with its 75 eyes in space for all the small developments of this world. I guess this is the main difference between reality and RPing fantasy. Let's stop pretending this is some sort of no-fog-of-war game screen and start becoming more realistic.

Site of interest: http://www.ucsusa.org/nuclear_weapons_and_global_security/space_weapons/technical_issues/ucs-satellite-database.html

[Triyun]

Kankou's complaints about realism ring pretty shallow to me. We've already existed in a world with thousands of F-22s, dozens of nations fielding super carriers, and massive horizontal nuclear proliferation. I for one assume that the amount of money spent on defense IC compared to IRL is on a whole other order of magnitude.

If you want to talk about realism, your talking about restricting things to a much greater extent than just satellites.

[HHAYD]

[quote name='Lynneth' timestamp='1307971018' post='2730537']
They still mess up the planet's orbit needlessly >:|
Why don't people think of space shenanigans? Why do they have to pollute it by shooting satkillers? D=
[/quote]
Because it's fun denying everyone's access to satellites, space colonies or imposing an unofficial blockade on trades between Planet Bob and the moon or Mars.

Who doesn't love the "If I can't beat you, you're going down with me." mentality?!

Edited June 13, 2011 by HHAYD

[Kankou]

[quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1307980603' post='2730589']
Kankou's complaints about realism ring pretty shallow to me. We've already existed in a world with thousands of F-22s, dozens of nations fielding super carriers, and massive horizontal nuclear proliferation. I for one assume that the amount of money spent on defense IC compared to IRL is on a whole other order of magnitude.

If you want to talk about realism, your talking about restricting things to a much greater extent than just satellites.
[/quote]
You're mixing up economical and physical restraints. My point about the satellites was that it is physically impossible to have all the instant detection that most people take for granted. Only someone who has over ten thousand people looking at the constant incoming data from stationary satellites has any chance to do the instant detection so dreamed of by everyone in RP (http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=97109&view=findpost&p=2575964). Another line of argument, focusing on physics, would be needed, Triyun.

[Triyun]

Oh I do not disagree with that. Satellite analysis does take some time. Although per terms of the TSI, Voodoo's capability would be considerably greater than others. Voodoo's post was wiped entirely so I don't see how this is an issue though.