The GM's Court

[Zoot Zoot]

[quote name='Kankou' timestamp='1306756860' post='2720539']
I have a question concerning non-state groups:

From now on, I'll be involved in several groups that are not related to my main RP nation (Greater Korean Federation). Would it be possible to take parts of my total military counts towards having troops and equipments for the groups not related to Korea? An example will be the Teutonic Knights, since I plan on having full military capacity be part of the order.
[/quote]

As far as i am aware, this is permitted. It's what I do with my Templars and I have never had any issues.

[Centurius]

[quote name='Kankou' timestamp='1306756860' post='2720539']
I have a question concerning non-state groups:

From now on, I'll be involved in several groups that are not related to my main RP nation (Greater Korean Federation). Would it be possible to take parts of my total military counts towards having troops and equipments for the groups not related to Korea? An example will be the Teutonic Knights, since I plan on having full military capacity be part of the order.
[/quote]

Provided you deduct those numbers from the total in the GKF.

[Kankou]

[quote name='Centurius' timestamp='1306767923' post='2720605']
Provided you deduct those numbers from the total in the GKF.
[/quote]
Is assuming that planned RPs are not restricted from the numbers?

[Centurius]

[quote name='Kankou' timestamp='1306768095' post='2720607']
Is assuming that planned RPs are not restricted from the numbers?
[/quote]

Of course, planned rp's are exempted from the guidelines on numbers.

[Kankou]

[IMG]http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac318/kousenkankou/sarahspyroll.jpg[/IMG]

Spying against Sarah, to steal from the Hofburg Palace, conducted by the Teutonic Knights (not Greater Korean Federation).

[Sargun II]

I'm relatively certain that you can't steal an entire building without an extreme amount of equipment over a large period of time, much less an entire bloody palace

[Lynneth]

[quote name='Kankou' timestamp='1306901861' post='2721793']
Spying against Sarah, to steal from the Hofburg Palace, conducted by the Teutonic Knights (not Greater Korean Federation).
[/quote]
Is that even allowed, using another player's entity (Martens' Teutonic Knights) to conduct a spy operation?
I would say that one can spy only from one's own nation, not via proxies like this.

[Kankou]

[quote name='Sargun' timestamp='1306901938' post='2721795']
I'm relatively certain that you can't steal an entire building without an extreme amount of equipment over a large period of time, much less an entire bloody palace
[/quote]
Steal [b]from[/b] the Hofburg Palace.

[quote name='Lynneth' timestamp='1306902035' post='2721798']
Is that even allowed, using another player's entity (Martens' Teutonic Knights) to conduct a spy operation?
I would say that one can spy only from one's own nation, not via proxies like this.
[/quote]
It's a joint entity. I was the one who originally thought of it, and will be the one who RPs it actively.I'll also be taking parts of my stats to form the military branch of the order.

[Sargun II]

[quote name='Kankou' timestamp='1306902250' post='2721802']
Steal [b]from[/b] the Hofburg Palace.
[/quote]

:derp:

Sorry, I'm recovering from a mild concussion ><

[Executive Minister]

[quote name='Kankou' timestamp='1306901861' post='2721793']
[img]http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac318/kousenkankou/sarahspyroll.jpg[/img]

Spying against Sarah, to steal from the Hofburg Palace, conducted by the Teutonic Knights (not Greater Korean Federation).
[/quote]
[img]http://i710.photobucket.com/albums/ww106/mofailla/akeiko47.jpg?t=1306902650[/img]


Alright with 0-90 a win and 91-100 a fail, we have a win at 60.

[KaiserMelech Mikhail]

[quote name='Sargun' timestamp='1306901938' post='2721795']
I'm relatively certain that you can't steal an entire building without an extreme amount of equipment over a large period of time, much less an entire bloody palace
[/quote]
I dunno, my roommate and I stole the golden dome of the Iowa capital building one time.

[Kankou]

[IMG]http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac318/kousenkankou/zootspyroll.jpg[/IMG]

Against Zoot, to gather informtion on the leader of the Templar Knights, committed by Teutonic Knights.

[Lynneth]

[quote name='Kankou' timestamp='1306902250' post='2721802']
It's a joint entity. I was the one who originally thought of it, and will be the one who RPs it actively.I'll also be taking parts of my stats to form the military branch of the order.
[/quote]
Even then I'm not sure whether it should be allowed for an RPer to efectively make spyattempts untraceable to his/her nation, regardless of the outcome.

[Kankou]

[quote name='Lynneth' timestamp='1306905290' post='2721827']
Even then I'm not sure whether it should be allowed for an RPer to efectively make spyattempts untraceable to his/her nation, regardless of the outcome.
[/quote]
I would say that it depends on the intent of the player. I'm not using the Teutonic Knights to do my work for Korea, and also using things out of Korea's stats, to avoid extending the maximum. Only when Sarah's church and Korea comes into conflict do I think we might have a problem, and until then, I don't see any reason for preventing rolls.

[Mogar]

[quote name='Lynneth' timestamp='1306905290' post='2721827']
Even then I'm not sure whether it should be allowed for an RPer to efectively make spyattempts untraceable to his/her nation, regardless of the outcome.
[/quote]
my idea is perhaps we could add a counter intelligence spy roll to attempt to reveal where the group is getting their intelligence backing, as a way to not be completely unconnected to the original nation, and with some good RP people would be able to get themselves out of any negative situations that would occur by backing a splinter group (look at the ISI from RL as an example of weaseling out of negative situations)

[Zoot Zoot]

Just saying in regards to the rolls against me. ICly I've always maintained Weskers secret by having him indirectly control everything. It's how I have maintained his presence and secret for around 2 years IRL, give or take a month or two.

Whilst he is the grandmaster of the Templars, he uses Alice to front his wishes and do his work when it's concerned with outside forces. Mainly because him and Barney are both believed to be dead as well as wanted war criminals. So I'm just sayin, if these spy rolls somehow end up revealing who is really running the show, (wesker), I won't be recognising it. I will only recognise Alice as an information lead for the Templar Knights.

[Kankou]

[quote name='Zoot Zoot' timestamp='1306923797' post='2721942']
Just saying in regards to the rolls against me. ICly I've always maintained Weskers secret by having him indirectly control everything. It's how I have maintained his presence and secret for around 2 years IRL, give or take a month or two.

Whilst he is the grandmaster of the Templars, he uses Alice to front his wishes and do his work when it's concerned with outside forces. Mainly because him and Barney are both believed to be dead as well as wanted war criminals. So I'm just sayin, if these spy rolls somehow end up revealing who is really running the show, (wesker), I won't be recognising it. I will only recognise Alice as an information lead for the Templar Knights.
[/quote]

I would have to say your stance is simple BS. It is one thing to simply hide a person to escape prosecution, but when a person is "actively" leading an organization, there are bound to be leaks through which information on the true leader is revealed. Therefore, your argument of a leak-tight active leadership is nothing but a pipe dream contrary to RPing standards. You might as well choose between the two: Completely remove him from being a leader of any organization and thereby turn him into a mere fugitive, or be prepared for leaks.

That being said, I don't expect to know that Albert is the true leader from a single success roll. I'm thinking of requiring at least 7 successful rolls to get at least a general picture, and even then I'll go with the flow on how Zoot RPs Albert's movements.


Since the GMs have not yet rolled my remaining chance on May 31st, I request that there be a total of three rolls, including my slots for June 1st.

[king of cochin]

@Kankou I hope you know that I have over ruled your earlier spy roll, the one against spy roll. Unless contravened by another GM you are not permitted to do any spy ops in the persona of the Teutonic Knights. You can only do spy ops as your IC nation, Greater Korean Federation. Hence please take the discussion between you and zoot to the OOC section.

[Zoot Zoot]

Hang on.

Double standards.

My rolls as the Templar Knights were permitted to launch biological attacks on Canada and when I got rolls as the Templars to steal a jet and bomb Blue Heaven.
You cannot allow my rolls to pass, and then deney Kankous rolls which are much much less than what I was allowed rolls for.

[Centurius]

[quote name='king of cochin' timestamp='1306927161' post='2721952']
@Kankou I hope you know that I have over ruled your earlier spy roll, the one against spy roll. Unless contravened by another GM you are not permitted to do any spy ops in the persona of the Teutonic Knights. You can only do spy ops as your IC nation, Greater Korean Federation. Hence please take the discussion between you and zoot to the OOC section.
[/quote]

Yeah I have to oppose this ruling, we allowed non-state entities spy rolls before, this is no different.

[Kankou]

Thank you for your support. I shall proceed with my RPs.

[Michael McBride]

I can see both sides to this. Frankly, if you're RP an organization that has no ties to your RP nation, you should not be able to use your spy odds to spy on others, in my opinion. Instead, make it a blanket 10% odds for organizations that are not connected to a state for spying. If people want to risk connecting their state to a splinter org, then they can use their spy odds.

My two cents.

[Triyun]

IMO one should require some ties to SOME government. There is no organization in the world that is non state that has the capacity to act on large scales without some sort of government acquiescence or support. Al Qaeda for example required a base of operations to get its start. I think especially if you are talking about the raising of an maintaining of forces you would need a government. Black Water which I suppose probably has the greatest capability as far as a private organization primarily contracts with the US and Britain. Al Qaeda at its height even with massive private funding was never able to field more than a few thousand foreign fighters (and they had some backing probably from the ISI as well as the Taliban).

As far as spy rolls go, I feel there should need to be some, linkage to some government. Otherwise whats to stop me before invading someone with the UFE making 20 different organizations, which each conduct covert ops for a month to wear down a particularly tough opponent while being immune from retaliation. This seems silly to me and a huge avenue for abuse. These military companies like Artemis which haven't sold anything in years, have no tax base, and then claim to have the resources to maintain standing armies which costs tens of billions of dollars in maintenance are bad enough. Having organizations that are invented one day of a week and then doing spy rolls without government assistance the next is just a disaster waiting to happen.

We should have strong sets of rules. If you want to privatize combat forces or spying, it must be done with one set of resources: you're in game nations. If your in-game nation has 800 spies, and you wish to use them with a non state actor, then you are giving up your national spy agency. If you want to have a standing army of 500, 000 soldiers for your non state actor, you are giving up those forces from your in game nation. Otherwise you create a situation that can be abused so easily. You use private military forces and covert forces for the offense, which totally remove your liability and if someone does choose to hold you accountable, you claim that even after these forces are regenerated, your nation insta-respawns them as your national forces. Its a clear cut system of abuse. I urge the GMs to uphold Cochin's ruling and really look at vigorous enforcement.

The sole exception to this rule as always should be if its done by mutual consent of two players (for example, when Vektor asked me to RP his rebels or when Sarah invited people into her civil war).

[Sargun II]

[quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1306945610' post='2722043']
As far as spy rolls go, I feel there should need to be some, linkage to some government. Otherwise whats to stop me before invading someone with the UFE making 20 different organizations, which each conduct covert ops for a month to wear down a particularly tough opponent while being immune from retaliation. This seems silly to me and a huge avenue for abuse. These military companies like Artemis which haven't sold anything in years, have no tax base, and then claim to have the resources to maintain standing armies which costs tens of billions of dollars in maintenance are bad enough. Having organizations that are invented one day of a week and then doing spy rolls without government assistance the next is just a disaster waiting to happen.
[/quote]

Not only have I RP'd selling things multiple times over many years (and the underlying civilian sales that nobody ever remembers that I've mentioned on IRC before at least a dozen times, even specifically to you twice), but Artemis maintains no standing armies and only operates a single factory, and a headquarters in Vienna as well as a single hospital backed with an extreme amount of money that was never used over the years. Pick another example and get your facts right - especially if you decide to use Artemis as an example, who has been given two separate GM approvals over the course of several months and been RP'd out extensively for a long time.

For the purposes of this particular debate, I've used spy odds as a non-state entity but I [b]always[/b] had a relatively thorough post specifically stating what steps I took to prevent my identity from being revealed (I don't have a post on hand because search sucks, but if when I hacked England I did the same kind of posts). I believe that we should continue doing what we have done before, allowing non-state entities to do spy rolls, as long as there is more RP involved than your state entity.

Furthermore, it has [b]always[/b] been that you use forces deducted from your in-game nation and in-rp nation to go for non-state entities. At one point, I had more troops in Artemis than I did in my state entity. The only way this could be abused is with the insta-respawn of troops, which should be looked at for everybody. If we fix insta-respawn, then the ability for abuse via non-state entities goes away almost entirely.

[Kankou]

[quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1306945610' post='2722043']
Otherwise whats to stop me before invading someone with the UFE making 20 different organizations, which each conduct covert ops for a month to wear down a particularly tough opponent while being immune from retaliation. [/quote]
I think the GMs already would have cracked down on such a playing style as abuse. The only "new" suggestion that is the one below:

[quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1306945610' post='2722043']You use private military forces and covert forces for the offense, which totally remove your liability and if someone does choose to hold you accountable, you claim that even after these forces are regenerated, your nation insta-respawns them as your national forces. Its a clear cut system of abuse.[/quote]
Disallow instant respawns, and then we're all set, I believe.