The GM's Court

[SpacingOutMan]

[quote name='KaiserMelech Mikhail' timestamp='1301948721' post='2684132']
Ok, I need to call zoot out on this. It is literally 100% impossible to combine Ebola and Smallpox. I don't care how much "RP" you put towards it, you'll have better luck making a Jelleyfish Tree than you would combining the two viruses. Ebola is a class V virus (single stranded RNA) and Smallpox is a class I virus (double stranded DNA) They lack the same genetic material for god's sake!
[/quote]

Just to clarify...

First and foremost, Smallpox is [b]not[/b] a virus; Smallpox is an infectious disease [i]caused[/i] by two different viruses (similar to AIDS being the product of the HIV virus). However, with that said, [i]Orthopoxvirus[/i] is a specific genus of viruses that are single-DNA-stranded and also rely (entirely) on the nucleus for replication because they require a DNA-vector to insert their own DNA. This then leads to a general reliance on transcriptional processes to replicate/reproduce (where mRNA and tRNA are, more or less, produced and transported).

Second and just as important, the actual after-effects of Ebola is the [i]disease[/i] known as Ebola Hemorrhagic Fever (EHF). This is the "lethal" part; Ebolavirus, itself, is harmless, although it is what onsets the disease itself.

Lastly, fusion of Smallpox [i]and[/i] EBOV would [b]not[/b] be impossible for the reasons you are thinking. Genetically, their compatibility do not rely solely on their dichotomy regarding information preservation (DNA vs. mDNA vs. RNA). In all instances, the processes are reducible to the proteome, which is the total "blueprint" of all plausible proteins yielded from [post]translational processes. During translation, RNA strands are broken apart [i]anyways[/i], although viral RNA replication works rather differently (works in vectors as opposed to strict translational processes). What the virus does is specifically attaches itself into a host cell and uses the present RNA and intermingles its own informational material (depending on RNA/DNA strand type), thus creating a vector. However, what EBOV does have is the RdRP enzyme which acts as a replicase which allows total replication of the genome in fast progression given the presence of the required primers. This then leads to the creation of specific proteins (or leads to mutated/degraded/quickly-denaturing proteins) that yield after-effects such as EHF and Smallpox.

It is then minutely possible to take the host [i]Variola vera major[/i] (the more common and more lethal Smallpox-causing virus) and create a synthesized vector by implanting critical genes from the EBOV (ones targeted for EHF creation) into the DNA of [i]V. v. major[/i]. However, this would make two major assumptions:

1. You would have to have mapped the critical genes (along with the entirety of the genes) and properly mapped corresponding metabolic pathways that [i]may[/i] have an induced affect epigenetically on protein creation/duration.

2. You would have to make sure that the genes from one organism is not inherently lethal/detrimental to the other (as in conflicting genes).

With that said, it would be much more viable to create a weaponized "package" that contain both viruses, but instead of hybridizing the two, one would instead have them hit consecutively.

Other than that, I can't say that it is 100% impossible, but I'm not sure about the specific genes involved (and even if they are known, though I would have to imagine they would be since that is how viruses/bacteria are weaponized: vector replication/harvesting), so I guess it would depend on how much one knows about genetics (I don't know too much about specific genes present across the spectrum in, say, viruses and bacteria; my knowledge only expands to plants & algae and (in)vertebrates).

[Zoot Zoot]

SOM has a massive advantage on this one because I dont know anything about these things.
However, I did do my research, this is the most indepth article I could find that explains it.

http://www.pwhce.org/ebolapox.html

[Zoot Zoot]

[quote name='KaiserMelech Mikhail' timestamp='1301948721' post='2684132']
Ok, I need to call zoot out on this. It is literally 100% impossible to combine Ebola and Smallpox. I don't care how much "RP" you put towards it, you'll have better luck making a Jelleyfish Tree than you would combining the two viruses. Ebola is a class V virus (single stranded RNA) and Smallpox is a class I virus (double stranded DNA) They lack the same genetic material for god's sake!
[/quote]

See the above response.

[Executive Minister]

Centurius, i vaguely recall that uberstein needed to perform 10 rolls to find Comrade's 10 nuclear missiles. I do not think that one roll would be able to uncover all unhidden silos.

[Centurius]

[quote name='Zoot Zoot' timestamp='1301934802' post='2684036']
[IMG]http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb144/zoot_zoot/2-1.png[/IMG]

Two more rolls for cherna.
90% odds

One to plant a Ebolapox release package in a train station at the morning commute and one to plant an ebolapox release package in an airport terminal.
[/quote]
[img]http://data.treksimming.com/rolls/rollszoot.png[/img]

1-10 = fail
11-100 = win

2 wins, that said the rp is not sanctioned by GMs at this point, serious points were raised that need to be resolved first.

[quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1301937598' post='2684053']
[img]http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/1880/picture44u.png[/img]

Requesting two rolls in order of success, first success is to have a mini-sub successfully conduct a torpedo strike with a signature similar to ammunition used by the Japanese Navy against a UFE mine laying boat of the coast of Kyushu in the East China Sea.

[i]Should[/i] this prove successful on the first roll, please then give me satellite photos of Japan's nuclear deterrent during the second roll. If the first one is not, the sub will disengage and try again so roll again for that.
[/quote]

[img]http://data.treksimming.com/rolls/rollstriyun2.png[/img]

1-30 = loss
31-100 = win

2 wins

[Executive Minister]

[quote name='Executive Minister' timestamp='1301952453' post='2684177']
Centurius, i vaguely recall that uberstein needed to perform 10 rolls to find Comrade's 10 nuclear missiles. I do not think that one roll would be able to uncover all unhidden silos.
[/quote]

For what its worth, [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=62869&view=findpost&p=2006622"]here[/url] is what I was talking about.

[Triyun]

[quote name='Executive Minister' timestamp='1301953961' post='2684192']
For what its worth, [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=62869&view=findpost&p=2006622"]here[/url] is what I was talking about.
[/quote]

If its a military operation, disabling the silos wouldn't require covert action as seems to be the case there but instead would be a coordinated military operation (using either nuclear weapons or massive ordinance penetrators) which are very much in concert with what great power militaries were built to do. What I'm requesting is merely the analysis of satellite photographs which are part of a routine intelligence gathering operations for most countries to locate major bomber, missile, and submarine bases.

[SpacingOutMan]

[quote name='Zoot Zoot' timestamp='1301951897' post='2684168']
SOM has a massive advantage on this one because I dont know anything about these things.
However, I did do my research, this is the most indepth article I could find that explains it.

http://www.pwhce.org/ebolapox.html
[/quote]

Although I'd contend that that source is absolutely non-credible...

[quote]The Soviet Union genetically engineered a version of smallpox which would also produce the disease symptoms of Ebola. Both are extremely contagious. Smallpox has around a 30% mortality rate and Ebola over 90%. Incidentally, this fact seems to be the source of an apparently erroneous claim made in a recent newspaper article10 that Anthrax had been combined with Ebola by the Russians.[/quote]

It cites "Greg Sheridan, In a Time of Plague, The Weekend Australian, 4-5 August 2001, p26.".

I cross-referenced a few databases and there is, indeed, information on the Ebolapox. According to the [url="http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/bioweapons/biowar_dictionary.html"]CBC News site's Bioterror weapons[/url]:

[quote]Ebolapox - A genetic combination of Ebola and smallpox, said to have been developed by Russian biological weapons experts. Parts of the Ebola virus were grafted into a smallpox virus.[/quote]

This eventually led me to the [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biopreparat"]Biopreparat[/url] wikipedia page, which confirms that Ebolapox was made by the Soviets (Biopreparat was their top biowarfare agency).

And from the looks of it, it works [i]exactly[/i] as I explained above. Go figure. More or less what you are doing is inserting the vectors responsible for the EHF into the Smallpox DNA structure. So you aren't technically merging EBOV and [i]V. v. major[/i], but instead are taking the genes responsible for EHF and shoving them into a vector utilizing [i]V. v. major[/i]'s DNA structure.

Genetically, it works.

Edited April 4, 2011 by SpacingOutMan

[Fizzydog]

If were getting this indepth into viruses for a stupid online forums RP, then how about we pick every single tiny thing apart to find something that is impossible and get rid of it?

This is CNRP for god's sake. None of us are experts on anything, so nuless it is truly and obvious, disgusting flaw, then don't point it out. RP is a lot more enjoyable when it isn't interrupted every ten seconds by the genetics major/ physics major/ whatever expert you claim to be and say "nuh uh, that's too unrealistic for our horribly unrealistic RP."

[KaiserMelech Mikhail]

[quote name='Fizzydog' timestamp='1301962293' post='2684305']
None of us are experts on anything
[/quote]
You're not because you're 12. Some of us are engineers, grad students, etc.

[Michael McBride]

[quote name='KaiserMelech Mikhail' timestamp='1301962426' post='2684308']
You're not because you're 12. Some of us are engineers, grad students, etc.
[/quote]

Or work in the field we talk about (media, for example).

[Axolotlia]

[quote name='Pravus Ingruo' timestamp='1301962483' post='2684311']
Or work in the field we talk about (media, for example).
[/quote]

Or are interested enough in either RP or the subject at hand to read or have read into it.

[SpacingOutMan]

[quote name='Fizzydog' timestamp='1301962293' post='2684305']
If were getting this indepth into viruses for a stupid online forums RP, then how about we pick every single tiny thing apart to find something that is impossible and get rid of it?

This is CNRP for god's sake. None of us are experts on anything, so nuless it is truly and obvious, disgusting flaw, then don't point it out. RP is a lot more enjoyable when it isn't interrupted every ten seconds by the genetics major/ physics major/ whatever expert you claim to be and say "nuh uh, that's too unrealistic for our horribly unrealistic RP."
[/quote]

KaiserMelech called Zoot's RP into question and I provided some insight/clarification into the matter at hand. I actually [i]work[/i] as a research assistant in a genetics lab at my university looking at developmental morphology/physiology and evolutionary gradualism (and punctualism where it applies).

I wouldn't expect anyone to know genetics in-depth, just like I, in no way, would claim to know the mechanics of a car in-depth (whereas an engineer or a car mechanic would be able to give some insight on all the parts of an engine, etc.). So KaiserMelech was more than in the right to question it; something that fantastical does seem out of the norm... and that's because it is. It's something very complicated and in-depth. That is why I provided a somewhat brief and superficial analysis of it.

[Zoot Zoot]

Just shut up Fizzy.
Honestly, since you got rolled again for being an idiot, you have been butthurt about CNRP being unrealistic.

And what?

Elements are unrealistics, other elements are not.
Martens is a Vampire FFS. There have been three major Zombie plagues, people coming back from the dead... More than once. Your argument is moot.

I personally honestly don't mind if stuff gets contested like this because of all the people who know a vast amount more about it than me, like SOM just prooved.

Your just too young too appreciate just how much a small detail can alter an entire storyline dude, that's why everybody gets so anal about them.

[Fizzydog]

Zoot, did you even read my post? I'm in support of you. My god, do you have any comprehension of what I said?

[Zoot Zoot]

Nope. Don't care.
Kidding.

I know your supporting me, and no offence your the last person I want fighting my corner. Especially Somebody who has no idea at all about the matter at hand. Which is why this is an open debate between folks who do. I'm just here to settle for a ruling.

[king of cochin]

[quote name='Fizzydog' timestamp='1301962293' post='2684305']
If were getting this indepth into viruses for a stupid online forums RP, then how about we pick every single tiny thing apart to find something that is impossible and get rid of it?

This is CNRP for god's sake. None of us are experts on anything, so nuless it is truly and obvious, disgusting flaw, then don't point it out. RP is a lot more enjoyable when it isn't interrupted every ten seconds by the genetics major/ physics major/ whatever expert you claim to be and say "nuh uh, that's too unrealistic for our horribly unrealistic RP."
[/quote]

Fizzy, CNRP has a lot of experts. Players with great deal of expertise in various fields who know what they are telling. CNRP is not just a place to go pow pow but also a place from where you can learn a lot of things.

So I would really suggest that instead of posting all the time criticizing the community, you actually do any RPs and meanwhile read and try to comprehend the various topics being discussed here. Learning new things wont kill you.

[Manetheren]

[quote]KaiserMelech called Zoot's RP into question and I provided some insight/clarification into the matter at hand. I actually work as a research assistant in a genetics lab at my university looking at developmental morphology/physiology and evolutionary gradualism (and punctualism where it applies).[/quote]

I couldn't see anywhere where I especially disagreed with your explanation of why its theoretically possible to combine the two (though I personally doubt it actually is as explained, but I'm sure there is a way or at least will be a way in the next 10 years).

Oh yeah, and I'd say I probably am the closest thing to an expert CNRP has in terms of bio-scientific research due to my background and profession. Ya'll know why

Edited April 5, 2011 by Emperor Mudd

[SpacingOutMan]

[quote name='Emperor Mudd' timestamp='1301972635' post='2684438']
I couldn't see anywhere where I especially disagreed with your explanation of why its theoretically possible to combine the two (though I personally doubt it actually is as explained, but I'm sure there is a way or at least will be a way in the next 10 years).

Oh yeah, and I'd say I probably am the closest thing to an expert CNRP has in terms of bio-scientific research due to my background and profession. Ya'll know why
[/quote]

Not sure if serious.

In any event, the Soviets successfully did it in the 1970s using (more or less) the method I described (which is a run-of-the-mill procedure/concept). But as I said, I don't work specifically with viruses/bacteria, so there may be something [i]I'm[/i] missing... but the fact remains that it has been done... forty years ago.

[Captain Enema]

Keep the whole ebolapox thing IC. Who cares if the attack fails because it is implausible? I don't.. and it promotes role play, even though the outcome of the attacker might not be quite what he's expecting.

Let him attack with the ebolapox.

Let him fail.

Let him get rolled for attempting a biological attack.

[Manetheren]

[quote name='SpacingOutMan' timestamp='1301976689' post='2684466']
Not sure if serious.

In any event, the Soviets successfully did it in the 1970s using (more or less) the method I described (which is a run-of-the-mill procedure/concept). But as I said, I don't work specifically with viruses/bacteria, so there may be something [i]I'm[/i] missing... but the fact remains that it has been done... forty years ago.
[/quote]

Yes I'm quite serious.

5 years working in biology research, 3 or so at a cancer research center. 4th year medical student and in a few months emergency medicine resident.

[Captain Enema]

It is one thing to merge ebola and smallpox in a lab. It is entirely another thing to weaponize them into a useful biological weapon.

Just because it can be done or has been done in a lab does not grant it free pass to be used in field conditions. The entire thing sounds incredibly hare-brained to me and just like it is the sort of thing a wonk would try and seriously expect it to succeed and then would bemoan the gods after the fact that it didn't make it farther than the front door from the petri dish.

[Manetheren]

It is EXTREMELY unlikely. That isn't the same as impossible and theoretically, it is possible. Since the tech scale in CNRP goes into the future a good 10-15 years, I'm open to the idea that some stretches on current science in this regard are possible.

[Captain Enema]

That's not a stretch though imo, that's a pretty major leap forward. I imagine a hybrid strain of two things might be somewhat stronger, but very unlikely.

Seems to me a person would just be better off loading up their missiles with Sarin gas. That's pretty damn foolproof.

[Zoot Zoot]

So ignoring TBM's whining for the minute, what's the ruling?
Our two resident scientists have both said it's possible, perhaps at a stretch, but it's already been done.

Secondly, TBM, I ain't gonna get rolled because I'm doing it through a company with no links to England. Two separate things. It won't fail and yea, it's harebrained and crazy but it's worked up to now.

So if the GM's are happy with the information provided, can they make a ruling on the attack?