Poyplemonkeys Posted January 5, 2011 Report Share Posted January 5, 2011 (edited) Again you keep talking about trade circles, temp trades, everything that I haven't taken any issue with. This has just been so distorted from my original point which was that you can't just calculate slot usage and give the award to the alliance with the highest as if that is the be all and end all of economic growth. In that very post you recognise that it isn't... I've explained why I have the opinion I do, and how I'm not trying to take away from Umbrella's achievements, many times. So like I said to mrcalkin, if you disagree with it then so be it the opinions are pretty much polar opposites, just don't come at me with all figures to show me how brilliant Umbrella is at what you do because I already know. Your level of dedication cannot be questioned, and has not been questioned either, I personally would just place greater weight elsewhere if that situation existed. Edited January 5, 2011 by Poyplemonkeys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supercoolyellow Posted January 5, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2011 Nominating Polar and NSO for most controversial alliance so we have more options. Nominations are now closed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monster Posted January 5, 2011 Report Share Posted January 5, 2011 Yeah, I guess we got too defensive. Sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrcalkin Posted January 5, 2011 Report Share Posted January 5, 2011 [quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1294264068' post='2564713'] Yeah, I guess we got too defensive. Sorry. [/quote] I wouldn't apologize, I don't see why we can't argue with his allegation that what we are doing is automatically second to something that would build nations quicker. His only argument is that if there was some new type of economic system (who has invented a truly "new" economic system these past couple of years really?) that it would be better than us since we are simply doing standard tech deals really really well and not doing anything "new" or "innovative". My argument is that the apparatus we built [i]is[/i] new and innovative as far as CN goes, and the results are evidence of this. The justification I and others used was that, if it was so simple and easy, or something so "standard" to keep all your nations constantly filled with tech, we wouldn't be the only ones doing it well, nor would those who come in second be so far behind. The fact is, we are the best alliance at growing nations, hands-down, and we have the resources and know-how to grow even small nations to large nations faster than anyone else. I think that any alliance that really changed the face of nation growth in a way that would earn his accolades, they would be neglecting some crucial area, be it wonders, infra, tech, land or warchests, nor do I even suspect such an alliance exists right now. That's why I am getting offensive, and why I presume others are as well. It's like if people were voting on fastest racer and we were lapping the second place guy multiple times but someone kept saying "I'd still vote for the guy with the biggest wheels because personally, that's the most impressive to me and winning by multiple laps doesn't matter since people have been winning for years". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
medicjoe95 Posted January 5, 2011 Report Share Posted January 5, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Poyplemonkeys' timestamp='1294262673' post='2564679'] Again you keep talking about trade circles, temp trades, everything that I haven't taken any issue with. This has just been so distorted from my original point which was that you can't just calculate slot usage and give the award to the alliance with the highest as if that is the be all and end all of economic growth. In that very post you recognise that it isn't... I've explained why I have the opinion I do, and how I'm not trying to take away from Umbrella's achievements, many times. So like I said to mrcalkin, if you disagree with it then so be it the opinions are pretty much polar opposites, just don't come at me with all figures to show me how brilliant Umbrella is at what you do because I already know. Your level of dedication cannot be questioned, and has not been questioned either, I personally would just place greater weight elsewhere if that situation existed. [/quote] You are absurd. This is the first time I, or anybody in this thread, has mentioned any dimension other than tech procurement. But now that I finally address your concerns over "other levels of growth," you claim that I "keep talking about...everything I haven't taken issue with." If your argument is that there is "[something you'd] place greater weight," I don't understand what that might be when I have addressed every single dimension of cybernations economics. It's like you're saying "if there was another dimension that currently does not exist in this game, and an alliance happened to be better at that dimension, then I would obviously have to err on the side of this other alliance with regards to the economics award." It's like claiming "well I believe that the sky is blue... but if there was evidence to believe the sky wasn't blue, although there really isn't at this point, I would believe the sky was not blue." Do you realize how silly that sounds? Either that, or I am grossly mistaking your vagueness for an accidental lack of logic; which, if this is the case, I'd love to hear what this other dimension is, and love to hear who would be succeeding at this dimension. By this I mean that you are obviously entitled to your opinion on who has the best economic system, based on your own criterion. But in my opinion, I believe that Umbrella is winning on every criterion established by the economics staff of every alliance in this game. Edited January 5, 2011 by medicjoe95 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banksy Posted January 5, 2011 Report Share Posted January 5, 2011 CN economics: > Tech deal > Form trade circle > Trade swap > Give small nations cash aid > Buy infra > Buy land > Improvement swap That is literally it. There is no other dimension to an alliance's economic system. You can't see improvement swapping, buying land/infra is a staple, trade swapping is also impossible to judge objectively. The only ones you can look at are tech deals and aid pumping. Competency in both of those is demonstrated by aid slot usage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poyplemonkeys Posted January 6, 2011 Report Share Posted January 6, 2011 (edited) Stunning number of people incapable of recognising what the word 'if' does to a sentence and asking me to point out things that I've explicitly mentioned might not even exist at this point in time. I'm just going to apologise for getting side tracked from my original point which was "you can't just take slot efficiency and give the award to the highest alliance" like people were originally doing. Now the numerous people who have brought up other facets of the economical systems in CN like trade swapping, blah and blah, particularly how Umbrella excels in these, indicates that you agree with me on some level regarding that original point. Even if you don't I am actually past caring at this point. [quote name='mrcalkin' timestamp='1294265061' post='2564734']It's like if people were voting on fastest racer and we were lapping the second place guy multiple times but someone kept saying "I'd still vote for the guy with the biggest wheels because personally, that's the most impressive to me and winning by multiple laps doesn't matter since people have been winning for years".[/quote] Everything in CN will always come back to an absolutely terrible car analogy, it really will Edited January 6, 2011 by Poyplemonkeys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Power Posted January 6, 2011 Report Share Posted January 6, 2011 [quote name='Banksy' timestamp='1294266887' post='2564795'] CN economics: > Tech deal > Form trade circle > Trade swap > Give small nations cash aid > Buy infra > Buy land > Improvement swap That is literally it. There is no other dimension to an alliance's economic system. You can't see improvement swapping, buying land/infra is a staple, trade swapping is also impossible to judge objectively. The only ones you can look at are tech deals and aid pumping. Competency in both of those is demonstrated by aid slot usage. [/quote] You forgot wonder order. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
threefingeredguy Posted January 6, 2011 Report Share Posted January 6, 2011 [quote name='Poyplemonkeys' timestamp='1294258126' post='2564612'] Yeah I know the benefits of tech, I mean Umbrella is an outrageous alliance in terms of tech but compared to the average I'm hardly tech light myself... If I had innovative ideas to grow nations successfully I wouldn't be slumming it like I am now, I'd be either making my own successful alliance or be in economics of another alliance. I wasn't talking about growth in general. It's been sort of side-tracked into people thinking I'm saying Umbrella don't deserve the award, which is not what I've ever claimed. I was just saying I didn't see why people were pulling up slot efficiency and saying that's it, Umbrella wins, as if it's the be all and end all of economics. I mean, has Umbrella bought 4mil NS worth of tech in the year? Or are you growing in other ways too? I've said a few times now that I'm not saying Umbrella don't deserve the award, just [b]if[/b] an alliance had created and utilised an innovative and successful new growth programme in the year I would place more value in it than being the very best at something that's pretty simple to grasp and has been around for an age. [/quote] The reason we have to use all our slots on tech is because we have extremely good growth programs. So good that the only small nations we have are the ones that want to be small. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banksy Posted January 6, 2011 Report Share Posted January 6, 2011 [quote name='Max Power' timestamp='1294276911' post='2565090'] You forgot wonder order. [/quote] Not really, because aside from the SM and SSS, military wonders tend to be those given a specific wonder order and so it's not and exclusively economic [or even majority economic] decision in most alliances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Titus Pullo Posted January 6, 2011 Report Share Posted January 6, 2011 Best Player Avatar: Titus Pullo I mean... come on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kubla Khan Posted February 15, 2011 Report Share Posted February 15, 2011 (edited) wrong thread, please delete Edited February 15, 2011 by Kubla Khan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xellos Posted February 15, 2011 Report Share Posted February 15, 2011 Gravedig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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