GOON spy orders

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='dalstrs' timestamp='1285382622' post='2463842']
What I gather from this is red is the sphere for rogues. Such a lack of character from the red senators.
[/quote]
Methrage is not a rogue, sorry, boys. He's the leader of an alliance pursuing a war--however ill-advised--and it is not our place to get in the way of his alliance's nuclear policy.

[JT Jag]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1285389217' post='2463934']
Methrage is not a rogue, sorry, boys. He's the leader of an alliance pursuing a war--however ill-advised--and it is not our place to get in the way of his alliance's nuclear policy.
[/quote]Of course it's not your place. You have no influence in any of the senates. However, the governments that are important and actually decide these things have decided it IS their place.

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='JT Jag' timestamp='1285389532' post='2463937']
Of course it's not your place. [b]You have no influence[/b] in any of the senates. However, the [b]governments that are important and actually decide[/b] these things have decided it IS their place.
[/quote]
Oh, that's odd, because when I checked 5 seconds ago Red Dawn controls 3 Red senators, and CoJ is a member of Red Dawn. So--and I'm going out on a limb here--I guess that in terms of sanctions on Red, which is the topic of the last page, that I am [b]influential[/b], [b]important[/b], and a [b]decider[/b].

Edited September 25, 2010 by Schattenmann

[dalstrs]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1285389217' post='2463934']
Methrage is not a rogue, sorry, boys. He's the leader of an alliance pursuing a war--however ill-advised--and it is not our place to get in the way of his alliance's nuclear policy.
[/quote]

Methrage is definitely a rogue. There is not a better example of a rogue that I can think of. To deny that he is a rogue is pure idiocy.

[Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1285389217' post='2463934']
Methrage is not a rogue, sorry, boys. He's the leader of an alliance pursuing a war--however ill-advised--and it is not our place to get in the way of his alliance's nuclear policy.
[/quote]
What about Mssr JimKongIl? What do you consider his status to be? Any chance of levying a sanction on the red team against him?

(Y'know I'd be very appreciative if you could assist me in this regard, Mssr Schattenmann )

Edit: I'm fairly sure he has admitted to his rogue status in this thread, just to make things clear.

Edited September 25, 2010 by Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz

[JT Jag]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1285389688' post='2463940']
Oh, that's odd, because when I checked 5 seconds ago Red Dawn controls 3 Red senators, and CoJ is a member of Red Dawn. So--and I'm going out on a limb here--I guess that in terms of sanctions on Red, which is the topic of the last page, that I am [b]influential[/b], [b]important[/b], and a [b]decider[/b].
[/quote]No, you [i]were[/i] influential, [i]were[/i] important, and [i]were[/i] a decider. Now you are a hollow shell of what you once were, living off of old successes and surviving vicariously through any perceived bad press you can heap on GOONS, drinking in the praise of the mindless sheep that have been trained to hail you no matter how off base the wall of text you post is.

And on top of that, you're losing the PR war. More alliances have established friendly relations with us now than they had when you started your posting charade last week. What happens when you realize that absolutely nothing you do will have any meaningful effect on us? What will be your last bastion then?

As for red senate, their ability to sanction is irrelevant as they are seemingly unwilling to use it on even the most obvious and widely accepted rogues.

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='dalstrs' timestamp='1285389916' post='2463943']
Methrage is definitely a rogue. There is not a better example of a rogue that I can think of. To deny that he is a rogue is pure idiocy.
[/quote]
You know it's funny Darksol and I were discussing a similar matter just an hour ago "<DarkSol> Except your definition of what an alliance is differs from ours . . . " Kerberos Nexus had 2 members, a charter, and forums when this war started. Cult of Justitia had 2 members when we co-founded Red Dawn. We were both alliances, even if you don't think we were. Hell, GOONS's definition of alliance didn't apply to CoJ until two weeks ago, but there ya go, it hasn't stopped us from being an alliance for over a year. If Methrage had attacked you by himself for no reason than to get some kicks, he'd be a rogue plain as day. But as it stands, he's the leader of an alliance pursuing a war against GOONS, and like most wars for the past two years, nukes are involved.

[Biazt]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1285390306' post='2463955']
Hell, GOONS's definition of alliance didn't apply to CoJ until two weeks ago, but there ya go, it hasn't stopped us from being an alliance for over a year.
[/quote]
Actually according to our definition you [b]are [/b]an alliance since you have diplomatic ties [img]http://cngoons.com/Board/Smileys/CN%20Emotes/eng101.gif[/img]

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='JT Jag' timestamp='1285390298' post='2463954']
No, you [i]were[/i] influential, [i]were[/i] important, and [i]were[/i] a decider. Now you are a hollow shell of what you once were, living off of old successes and surviving vicariously through any perceived bad press you can heap on GOONS, drinking in the praise of the mindless sheep that have been trained to hail you no matter how off base the wall of text you post is.

And on top of that, you're losing the PR war. More alliances have established friendly relations with us now than they had when you started your posting charade last week. What happens when you realize that absolutely nothing you do will have any meaningful effect on us? What will be your last bastion then?

As for red senate, their ability to sanction is irrelevant as they are seemingly unwilling to use it on even the most obvious and widely accepted rogues.
[/quote]

It's ok, I won't insist on you admitting how hilariously misinformed and stupid you were when you said I have no influence in sanctions even though a Red Senator is a member of CoJ; it's readily apparent and doing so would only be mean-spirited on my part. You just keep throwing the same relevance insults I've been eating for dessert for the past 2 years and hope nobody notices.

[magicmountain]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1285390306' post='2463955']
If Methrage had attacked you by himself for no reason than to get some kicks, he'd be a rogue plain as day.
[/quote]

That is exactly how this situation started. We were dutifully ignoring Methrage when he decided to attack us to get some kicks.

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz' timestamp='1285390167' post='2463949']
What about Mssr JimKongIl? What do you consider his status to be? Any chance of levying a sanction on the red team against him?

(Y'know I'd be very appreciative if you could assist me in this regard, Mssr Schattenmann )

Edit: I'm fairly sure he has admitted to his rogue status in this thread, just to make things clear.
[/quote]
We've been discussing him, actually. He is a very muddled case that it would be poor judgment to just go shooting off sanctions.

[quote name='Biazt' timestamp='1285390464' post='2463957']
Actually according to our definition you [b]are [/b]an alliance since you have diplomatic ties [img]http://cngoons.com/Board/Smileys/CN%20Emotes/eng101.gif[/img]
[/quote]
Thank you for the clarification, it was my mistaken understanding that the diplomatic relations don't make a group an alliance, just that they make them a no-go for raiding.

[Beefspari]

[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1285380881' post='2463818']
Hopefully some of these senators or alliances on these colors realize they have no need to help GOONS here and shouldn't be sanctioning at their request. I've been sanctioned on all of those except pink and purple removed the sanction. Your not really a rogue here since you got involved helping me, so these sanctions shouldn't stick.
[/quote]
Thanks for the rehearsed speech about how nobody ever is a rogue no matter what, plus anti-GOONS hate, but he's a single person who committed an act of war against an alliance.

Besides, it was someone from PC that sent out the sanction requests, not GOONS.

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='magicmountain' timestamp='1285390555' post='2463960']
That is exactly how this situation started. We were dutifully ignoring Methrage when he decided to attack us to get some kicks.
[/quote]
Well, magicmountain, that's not how it started at all! Methrage's other member attacked you (I don't know why) and for a very small window he would have been a rogue, but of course Methrage's entry into the war made it an alliance action.

[Haquertal]

[quote name='magicmountain' timestamp='1285390555' post='2463960']
That is exactly how this situation started. We were dutifully ignoring Methrage when he decided to attack us to get some kicks.
[/quote]

Well, another person in his AA attacked, we offered to discuss reps, but he then went crazy and attacked as well. Delicious rogues.

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1285390776' post='2463966']
Well, magicmountain, that's not how it started at all! Methrage's other member attacked you (I don't know why) and for a very small window he would have been a rogue, but of course Methrage's entry into the war made it an alliance action.
[/quote]

Then it's a 2 man AA of rogues. Still not an alliance.

Edited September 25, 2010 by Haquertal

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Haquertal' timestamp='1285390788' post='2463967']
Then it's a 2 man AA of rogues. Still not an alliance.
[/quote]

Were they rogues before they attacked you? No. Does going to war make any alliance a rogue alliance? No. Does nuking during a war make any alliance a rogue alliance? Not since 2008 or so.

They're just not rogues.

[magicmountain]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1285390776' post='2463966']
Well, magicmountain, that's not how it started at all! Methrage's other member attacked you (I don't know why) and for a very small window he would have been a rogue, but of course Methrage's entry into the war made it an alliance action.
[/quote]

So when one person attacks an alliance just for kicks that is a rogue action, but when two people attack an alliance just for kicks, that's not a rogue action? Also, do you realize we approached the situation with the first attack diplomatically, but Methrage decided to ignore the diplomacy and attack us, again, just for kicks? Why aren't they both rogues? It's not like we attacked first and Methrage came to his friend's defense.

[Biazt]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1285390686' post='2463963']
We've been discussing him, actually. He is a very muddled case that it would be poor judgment to just go shooting off sanctions.


Thank you for the clarification, it was my mistaken understanding that the diplomatic relations don't make a group an alliance, just that they make them a no-go for raiding.
[/quote]

Why is he a muddled case, if you don't mind me asking? All the other colors had no problem sanctioning him.

As for the alliance recognition deal, it's right in our charter

[Beefspari]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1285390686' post='2463963']
We've been discussing him, actually. He is a very muddled case that it would be poor judgment to just go shooting off sanctions.[/quote]
The only thing muddled about the case is that he's attacking someone you don't like. We already know that red is apt to deny sanctions if rogues are hitting people they don't like, or else try to force their influence over an alliance as a trade-off ("if you want a sanction, stop raiding anyone on my entire sphere"). I'm waiting for your excuse to not sanction. I bet it's just as good as "a 2-man AA is an alliance so they can't be sanctioned no matter what they do -- assuming they're attacking GOONS."

[Sigrun Vapneir]

[quote name='magicmountain' timestamp='1285390555' post='2463960']
That is exactly how this situation started. We were dutifully ignoring Methrage when he decided to attack us to get some kicks.
[/quote]

Reading his posts it doesnt seem like he attacked "just for kicks" - it seems like he has a serious political disagreement.

[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1285391221' post='2463981']
or else try to force their influence over an alliance as a trade-off ("if you want a sanction, stop raiding anyone on my entire sphere"). I'm waiting for your excuse to not sanction.
[/quote]

Why would they need an excuse? Do they owe you in some way?

Edited September 25, 2010 by Sigrun Vapneir

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='magicmountain' timestamp='1285391103' post='2463975']
So when one person attacks an alliance just for kicks that is a rogue action, but when two people attack an alliance just for kicks, that's not a rogue action? Also, do you realize we approached the situation with the first attack diplomatically, but Methrage decided to ignore the diplomacy and attack us, again, just for kicks? Why aren't they both rogues? It's not like we attacked first and Methrage came to his friend's defense.
[/quote]
You're [i]almost[/i] there. When a member of an alliance goes and attacks someone he shouldn't and his gov says "oh, we're very sorry, his actions aren't sanctioned" then that nation is clearly a rogue. If the gov says "in fact, thanks for bringing this to our attention, we're declaring war, too" then it's an alliance-sanctioned action, and an alliance action. For example, in the war to eradicate Norden Verein, on of NoV's allies had ONE nuclear nation, and he also happened to be that alliance head of state. He started nuking, and everyone on TPF's side started calling him a rogue and getting him sanctioned, but that's just silly, the head of state makes policy--if he's nuking, he's not a rogue. Methrage is in charge of KN, he joined the war, he's nuking, he's not a rogue.

[quote name='Biazt' timestamp='1285391219' post='2463980']
Why is he a muddled case, if you don't mind me asking? All the other colors had no problem sanctioning him. [/quote]
The use of the term "Rogue" has been too political and too slutty for years. You know, I was sanctioned as a "political rogue" when I had less than 9k NS--laughable! Most cases are cut-and-dried, and Biff Webster--the Senator from CoJ--has been sanctioning rogues left and right almost since the day he took office. Some instances are complicated, though,and they bear contemplation. That the old-world, conventional alliances that have been sanctioning "rogues" as an extension of their power for years sanctioned a nation as fast as you asked has no bearing on what the Red Senate does.

[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1285391221' post='2463981']
The only thing muddled about the case is that he's attacking someone you don't like. We already know that red is apt to deny sanctions if rogues are hitting people they don't like, or else try to force their influence over an alliance as a trade-off ("if you want a sanction, stop raiding anyone on my entire sphere"). I'm waiting for your excuse to not sanction. I bet it's just as good as "a 2-man AA is an alliance so they can't be sanctioned no matter what they do -- assuming they're attacking GOONS."
[/quote]
This is emotional tripe.

[Sephiroth]

We're currently at 4 members, so we're not really a "2-man AA" anymore regardless. I guess we'll see how much farther will GOONS try stretching the definition of rogue to try pressuring other alliances to sanction for them in an alliance war, but the war has doubled membership so far.

[magicmountain]

[quote name='Sigrun Vapneir' timestamp='1285392017' post='2463991']
Reading his posts it doesnt seem like he attacked "just for kicks" - it seems like he has a serious political disagreement.
[/quote]

I'm afraid I don't share your assessment, it seems to me that Methrage just likes to be in wars.

[Biazt]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1285392139' post='2463994']
The use of the term "Rogue" has been too political and too slutty for years. You know, I was sanctioned as a "political rogue" when I had less than 9k NS--laughable! Most cases are cut-and-dried, and Biff Webster--the Senator from CoJ--has been sanctioning rogues left and right almost since the day he took office. Some instances are complicated, though,and they bear contemplation. That the old-world, conventional alliances that have been sanctioning "rogues" as an extension of their power for years sanctioned a nation as fast as you asked has no bearing on what the Red Senate does.
[/quote]
I don't believe you've answered my question; you just went on a general rant about why you don't consider "rogues" to be rogues. You haven't mentioned why this specific case is "muddled".

Edited September 25, 2010 by Biazt

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='magicmountain' timestamp='1285392422' post='2463999']
I'm afraid I don't share your assessment, it seems to me that Methrage just likes to be in wars.
[/quote]
Only against those who deserve it and for a good cause.

[Haquertal]

[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1285392319' post='2463998']
We're currently at 4 members, so we're not really a "2-man AA" anymore regardless. I guess we'll see how much farther will GOONS try stretching the definition of rogue to try pressuring other alliances to sanction for them in an alliance war, but the war has doubled membership so far.
[/quote]

The word "doubled" would be staggering if it didn't mean 2+2. (or 2x2 or 2^2 or etc)

Edited September 25, 2010 by Haquertal