An Open Discussion On The Nature Of Trade Sanctions

[Augustus Autumn]

Without good intelligence on the trading partners of the nation you're going to sanction, their use runs the risk of being a detrimental to your opponent as it does to your own alliance. I can't recall the number of times it has been pointed out that sanctioning a nation has caused damage to four or five uninvolved nations, often when the sanction is over the top and unwarranted. As for the argument that these should only be used against "nuclear rogues", the definition of "rogue" is so muddled and lost that it's coming down to "someone the requesting alliance doesn't like".

That being said, how and why a sanction is used is really up to the senator holding the authority. If said senator happens to be acting in a way which the majority of the teams feels incorrect they're free to vote for someone else. It's not like who you've voted for is a matter of public record.

[Uralica]

[quote name='Ferrozoica Hive' timestamp='1284426235' post='2453056']
If said senator happens to be acting in a way which the majority of the teams feels incorrect they're free to vote for someone else. It's not like who you've voted for is a matter of public record.
[/quote]

This is indeed true. Of course, sometimes when a senator "abuses" their senate privileges, they almost always get their seat by pushing their own alliance to be sure to vote for them. That way, those other people on the sphere that don't vote are stuck with a complete wingnut in their senate.

Sometimes the people just don't know that someone has too itchy a sanction trigger-finger until they lose a trade due to a senator going off half-cocked for some stupid reason.

Edited September 14, 2010 by Uralica

[Aurion]

[quote name='NoFish' timestamp='1284270158' post='2450694']
Why are half of the posts in this thread Methrage !@#$%*ing about being sanctioned? While I agree that sanctions are often irrelevant, I don't really see the problem with using sanctions on a run of the mill rogue.
[/quote]

Because it's Methrage, and !@#$%*ing endlessly about how unfair the world is to him is what he does?

Edited September 14, 2010 by Aurion

[Augustus Autumn]

[quote name='Uralica' timestamp='1284428334' post='2453110']
This is indeed true. Of course, sometimes when a senator "abuses" their senate privileges, they almost always get their seat by pushing their own alliance to be sure to vote for them. That way, those other people on the sphere that don't vote are stuck with a complete wingnut in their senate.

Sometimes the people just don't know until they lose a trade due to a senator going off half-cocked for some stupid reason.
[/quote]

Then the matter is one of personal responsibility. If, for example, I lose a trade I make a point of attempting to find out why - in the vast majority of instances the nation has been destroyed (OOC: deleted), the other ruler is making a temporary trade or has decided to alter their trades without notification. In the event that I've lost a trade due to a sanction I make a point of attempting to find out why the senator in question levelled the sanction and have no qualms about giving them an earache if I don't agree with their reasoning. Should a senator truly be abusing their privledge there's nothing to stop persons from actually publicizing the action (which has been done in the past quite successfully) and attempting to motivate others to not vote for said senator. If anything, holding these persons accountable would likely being some importance back to color team politics and restore some of the importance of trade pacts and the like.

And if you're too lazy / uninformed / uninvolved to care, then shame on you. Apathy is all well and good until it bites you in the proverbial posterior.

[Uralica]

[quote name='Ferrozoica Hive' timestamp='1284428588' post='2453119']
Then the matter is one of personal responsibility. If, for example, I lose a trade I make a point of attempting to find out why - in the vast majority of instances the nation has been destroyed (OOC: deleted), the other ruler is making a temporary trade or has decided to alter their trades without notification.[/quote]

It's what I'd do, too. I've been fortunate enough to not have to do that. I have trading partners.

[quote]In the event that I've lost a trade due to a sanction I make a point of attempting to find out why the senator in question levelled the sanction and have no qualms about giving them an earache if I don't agree with their reasoning.[/quote]

I think I've found a kindred spirit. No baloney. I'd have to restrain myself if it were for some crappy reason like "oh, he attacked our lower tier once."

[quote]Should a senator truly be abusing their privledge there's nothing to stop persons from [b]actually publicizing the action (which has been done in the past quite successfully)[/b] and attempting to motivate others to not vote for said senator. If anything, holding these persons accountable would likely being some importance back to color team politics and restore some of the importance of trade pacts and the like.[/quote]

I recall the time this was done to TGE. Hell, it spurred Graham to attempt a "sanction standards pact" for White, and from what I recall, there was only one alliance he talked to that was against it (and he talked to all the sphere as far as I remember). Gee, I wonder who that was.

[quote]And if you're too lazy / uninformed / uninvolved to care, then shame on you. Apathy is all well and good until it bites you in the proverbial posterior.[/quote]

Indeed. (I actually try to make sure everyone in TOOL is heads-up on such things. )

[Augustus Autumn]

[quote name='Uralica' timestamp='1284429395' post='2453142']
I think I've found a kindred spirit. No baloney. I'd have to restrain myself if it were for some crappy reason like "oh, he attacked our lower tier once."[/quote]

Hence the dive into actually defining what a rogue is, something which people don't seem to want to form a consensus about.

[quote name='Uralica' timestamp='1284429395' post='2453142']
I recall the time this was done to TGE. Hell, it spurred Graham to attempt a "sanction standards pact" for White, and from what I recall, there was only one alliance he talked to that was against it (and he talked to all the sphere as far as I remember). Gee, I wonder who that was. [/quote]

Would that happen to have been the incident involving Opethian? I remember that one being a real mess. At least they were, and hopefully will be again, good for a real laugh due to high-handed garbage like that. Needless to say, it shows itself an excellent example of how team senators really can run rampant with their authority when they don't consider themselves accountable.

[Sigrun Vapneir]

[quote name='EEjack' timestamp='1284349200' post='2451934']
No, as idea that a lone wolf ( or as some folks put it rogue ) nation might be unduly punished for facing a larger opponent solo is petty. Any alliance that is worth being recognized should be able to deal with a single nation. Seriously, it is sad how much some folks flip out when some single nation 'dares' to confront them.[/quote]

Indeed. There is nothing the power structure seems to fear more than a ruler who dares to make a move solo. They use senators to kill trades (doing 5x collateral damage to the uninvolved) and call in just as much backup as they possibly can (giving the attacker more targets and ensuring more, not less damage is done directly to themselves) in a spastic fit that cannot be rationally explained, only hailed.

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='Aurion' timestamp='1284428401' post='2453113']
Because it's Methrage, and !@#$%*ing endlessly about how unfair the world is to him is what he does?
[/quote]
I've only made a few posts in the thread compared to how many GOD has made, first denying you sanctioned and now !@#$%*ing about me pointing it out. I'm sure you all will continue about to flood the thread about my greatness, have fun with that.

[Itsuki Koizumi]

I don't believe in sanctioning during war, since because of hands on experience, I have been sanctioned during the Karma war and basically screwed up my entire nation. But against nuke rogues, I will support it. Against "alliances" that don't meet the criteria for an alliance, I suppose I would be against that. However, for an alliance whose sole reason to exist is to attack another alliance, I would label them rogues, and not an alliance.

[Aurion]

[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1284491429' post='2453804']
I've only made a few posts in the thread compared to how many GOD has made, first denying you sanctioned and now !@#$%*ing about me pointing it out. I'm sure you all will continue about to flood the thread about my greatness, have fun with that.
[/quote]

Math isn't your strong suit, is it.

Edited September 14, 2010 by Aurion

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Ferrozoica Hive' timestamp='1284426235' post='2453056']
That being said, how and why a sanction is used is really up to the senator holding the authority. If said senator happens to be acting in a way which the majority of the teams feels incorrect they're free to vote for someone else. It's not like who you've voted for is a matter of public record.
[/quote]
You don't need a majority vote to become a senator.

At the most, you need one-third of the team to become a senator. If you have one-third of the team voting for you, you are guaranteed at least third place, and a seat.

Most senators have far less than that. Here is a table of the 36 current senators and how much of their respective teams voted for each of them, rounded to the nearest percentage point.

Zombonia... Fark... 15%
DuchyofGrandFenwick... Mostly Harmless Alliance... 13%
Saldaea... Mushroom Kingdom... 7%

Tulak Hord... Sparta... 11%
Mos Eisley... Nordreich... 8%
Tiltakslos... Umbrella... 8%

Crusader Knights... Genesis... 12%
Welchwood... The Foreign Division... 6%
FISHGUTS... world task force... 6%

DeKalb... Global Alliance and Treaty Organization... 13%
The New Empire... Global Alliance and Treaty Organization... 11%
Tinderscape... Carpe Diem... 9%

Ted... Green Protection Agency... 14%
Seria... Viridian Entente... 10%
Xaoc Prime... Phoenix Rising... 7%

Turkeybowl... Commonwealth of Sovereign Nations... 14%
Verspasia... Random Insanity Alliance... 10%
Republic of Z... Global Order of Darkness... 9%

Georgian Bay... Orange Defense Network... 14%
MikeLand... iFOK... 8%
Bubbler Nation... Independent Republic of Orange Nations... 6%

The Mongol-Swedes... Libertarian Socialist Federation... 14%
Alex Covill... Independent Coalition of Nations... 7%
drunkenville... New Found Outlaws... 6%

Lincongrad... The Legion... 17%
Emirates of Essex... Valhalla... 9%
Inner Shermania... United Purple Nations... 8%

Kingdom of Dark... New Pacific Order... 15%
Legendary Rock Stars... New Pacific Order... 12%
Wagglefka... Cult of Justitia... 12%

Banlovit... Federation of Armed Nations... 17%
Vols Black Rifle... Federation of Armed Nations... 16%
Scroatia... Veritas Aequitas... 13%

Norse... Siberian Tiger Alliance... 13%
QUATICLAND... Nusantara Elite Warriors... 11%
Irlande... The Order Of Light... 10%

As you can see, even on Yellow, which is the most active team in terms of voting for senate, the top 3 senators do not possess a majority; all three of them combine for approximately 46% of the vote, and if the other 54% of the team were somehow to get organized, then theoretically they could elect a completely separate slate of senators to the top 3.

[Tautology]

I had no idea Valhalla had a senator.

[Baldr]

I think that the vast majority of the time, sanctions do little to harm the nation you are sanctioning, while doing harm to a number of other nations.

If NPO sanctions a nation on the red sphere, it is fairly likely that at least one or two NPO nations will lose a trade due to that sanction.

If I were to go nuke rogue on several NPO nations, NPO could sanction me, since I'm on the red sphere. Several NPO nations would then lose my trade. I, in the meantime, would change color or set up trades on other colors. (Primarily to get access to Uranium.)

The sanction wouldn't have a huge effect on my nation. The destruction from the NPO response would, but the sanction would be a very small effect.

[Sephiroth]

I owe someone tech on white from a deal before the war started, which I'm unable to send due to the sanction on white. So the sanction from STA on white hasn't prevented aid from the white team, but it is preventing me from sending tech owed to a nation on white, thus causing me to have more tech for myself to use in the fight against GOONS. This nation who paid for tech before the war started can't receive tech I owe him even if I try to send it, so this also leaves me an extra aid slot open to receive more aid as well. So why not remove the sanction on white (as well as other colors)?

[JT Jag]

It's your fault for rogueing on us while you still owed tech, not ours.

[eejack]

[quote name='JT Jag' timestamp='1284672387' post='2456008']
It's your fault for rogueing on us while you still owed tech, not ours.
[/quote]

That is awesome in it's absolute bitterness. Which in my mind goes to show that the sanction, rather than being used as tool of warfare, is used in a vindictive and spiteful manner most of the time. Let us not pretend it currently serves any other use than as a mechanism of venomous retaliation against potential innocent bystanders.

EEjack

[Sardonic]

[quote name='EEjack' timestamp='1284681024' post='2456126']
That is awesome in it's absolute bitterness. Which in my mind goes to show that the sanction, rather than being used as tool of warfare, is used in a vindictive and spiteful manner most of the time. Let us not pretend it currently serves any other use than as a mechanism of venomous retaliation against potential innocent bystanders.

EEjack
[/quote]
In Methrage's case specifically it limits the amount of people who can send him secret aid, which is extremely useful when searching for potential secret aid senders, as entire spheres can be ignored. Sanctions have their uses.

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Tautology' timestamp='1284663587' post='2455933']
I had no idea Valhalla had a senator.
[/quote]
Legion, Valhalla and UPN have had permanent senators since the Purple Unity senate rotation collapsed.

Which is pretty much exactly what I told iFOK would happen if they were successful in their bid to have the senate rotation overthrown. Except that it might have been us in third place, if they'd done it before we left Purple.

[eejack]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1284696090' post='2456340']
In Methrage's case specifically it limits the amount of people who can send him secret aid, which is extremely useful when searching for potential secret aid senders, as entire spheres can be ignored. Sanctions have their uses.
[/quote]

In Methrage's case specifically it is unneeded since GOONS convinced Planet Bob that 90M is fair return for aiding Methrage. It is a situation where the sanctions are not working, but the aggrieved party has found other solutions. However I have no issue with sanctioning Methrage since GOONS is fighting Kerberos Nexus and my assumption is GOONS is using sanctions against all of the members of that alliance.

Sanctions as part of a declared war amongst alliances, in my view, are valid and useful. However if they are continued after the war, again sanctions would fall into the vindictive and petty category.

On the flip side, if current convention is to NOT use sanctions in declared war amongst alliances, then GOONS would be breaking a basic common law by doing so ( which makes bringing up Methrage as a specific example difficult and confusing ).

EEjack

[Sigrun Vapneir]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1284696090' post='2456340']
In Methrage's case specifically it limits the amount of people who can send him secret aid, which is extremely useful when searching for potential secret aid senders, as entire spheres can be ignored. Sanctions have their uses.
[/quote]

Yeah, that doesnt actually work either.

[JT Jag]

[quote name='Sigrun Vapneir' timestamp='1284867005' post='2457712']
Yeah, that doesnt actually work either.
[/quote]It's worked twice so far, so.

[Unko Kalaikz]

The purpose of an fleet be to reduce internal and external conflict and protect the alliances interests, while the purpose of team senators be the regulation of color spheres. It's natural for an fleet to eventually dominate and establish order on a color sphere and for the two interests to combine, the trick be calculating costs vs benefits of each sanction. I don't really see anything wrong with it, although its interesting to watch the global anarchists, who so bemoaned the Order of the previous age, set up their little wannabe hegemonies on their collaborating color spheres.

Edited September 19, 2010 by Unko Kalaikz

[Unko Kalaikz]

Ok, this outdated equipment (ooc cell phone ) be substituting words and messing up what Im trying to say so I'm going to wait till monday >_<

[JT Jag]

[quote name='Unko Kalaikz' timestamp='1284877893' post='2457922']
Ok, this outdated equipment (ooc cell phone ) be substituting words and messing up what Im trying to say so I'm going to wait till monday >_<
[/quote]It be not your equipment, me friend. It be the will of Admin, praise him, to celebrate this most glorious day.

[eejack]

[quote name='Sigrun Vapneir' timestamp='1284867005' post='2457712']
aye, that doesnt actually work either.
[/quote]

And it has not worked how many times?
What works ... 90M for getting caught.

EEjack

edit: word filters

Edited September 19, 2010 by EEjack