In Response to Recent Drama

[MadScotII]

[quote name='goldielax25' timestamp='1281373426' post='2407786']
Hint: Don't offer protection for people until you know why they need it. Maybe you've done it before successfully but generally people needing protection have someone mad enough at them to actually want to fulfill their desires to punish them. Had you instead told Hoo, can we work out this situation with the rogue, so you can get your licks in and then he can become a member of NSO, we wouldn't be fighting this war. But instead of that, he was told you guys were protecting him.

Well, you got your wish. Protecting means willing to go to war over a nation's defense. Unfortunately for you you got your war.
[/quote]

Don't almost every nation on Planet Bob join an alliance for protection?
If you're not in allaince how long do you think your nation would stay in one piece?
Is it not one of the most famous lines "if you don't want tech raided join an alliance?"

[Goldie]

[quote name='Jrenster' timestamp='1281373810' post='2407796']
We're not. We just need to set some few facts straight. You guys seem to be painting this as if we didn't try to negotiate when in fact we did. And when I say you guys, I don't mean you in particular.
[/quote]

I understand, but there is a difference between facts and spin. If you have any specific things you need set straight I have no problem presenting them.

What I was saying above is that when you take the stance of 'we are doing things our way, other alliance's wishes be damned' that you have to be ready to defend yourself from those alliances who feel you are wronging them. Rok (and to be honest the majority of CN) do things one way in regard to rogues, NSO does it another way. That is fine, but you have to realize that Hoo is a man of his word, and when he says aiding someone will lead to war, you'd better take him seriously. No diplomacy was needed after that convo, as soon as he stipulated that war was coming if the nation was aided, that was it. War was coming from that moment.

[Goldie]

[quote name='MadScotsman' timestamp='1281373918' post='2407799']
Don't almost every nation on Planet Bob join an alliance for protection?
If you're not in allaince how long do you think your nation would stay in one piece?
Is it not one of the most famous lines "if you don't want tech raided join an alliance?"
[/quote]

If a rogue hit a Valhalla ally and then applied to VE and we said "no you can't have him", how would that make you feel? People join alliances to avoid being raided sure. Needing protection from the perils of unaligned life and needing a sanctuary after going rogue on an alliance are totally different. In one, it is someone who has committed no crime seeking shelter. In another it is a criminal trying to escape punishment seeking shelter. If you can't differentiate between the two, then it means that conflicts will probably arise, and perhaps even war.

[dvdcchn]

[quote name='goldielax25' timestamp='1281374272' post='2407809']
If a rogue hit a Valhalla ally and then applied to VE and we said "no you can't have him", how would that make you feel? People join alliances to avoid being raided sure. Needing protection from the perils of unaligned life and needing a sanctuary after going rogue on an alliance are totally different. In one, it is someone who has committed no crime seeking shelter. In another it is a criminal trying to escape punishment seeking shelter. If you can't differentiate between the two, then it means that conflicts will probably arise, and perhaps even war.
[/quote]

i do not think it is so much, "you can not have him", versus "we want to see the proof". NSO accepted a rogue that was at war with IRON, i asked them about it, told them the story, and they said have at him.

but back to GATO, yeah GATO is crap. the whole from start to war happened less then 12 hours, Omni was in the same room as the rest of us when we were updated on what was happening, and that NSO would not be asking for military aid. NSO is my ally, but they were wrong here, they trusted GATO after they did the same thing last war.

[Laslo Kenez]

[quote name='dvdcchn' timestamp='1281374791' post='2407823']
but back to GATO, yeah GATO is crap. the whole from start to war happened less then 12 hours, Omni was in the same room as the rest of us when we were updated on what was happening, and that NSO would not be asking for military aid. NSO is my ally, but they were wrong here, they trusted GATO after they did the same thing last war.
[/quote]

This is lovely stuff, but you're confusing "GATO acted outside the predefined conditions for voiding a treaty" for "GATO UPSET ALLY ". We are guilty of the latter, not the former. Your whining is wonderful though, it truly stings when the membership of alliances such as IRON don't approve of us.

[Joe32320]

[quote name='Hymenbreach' timestamp='1281372313' post='2407754']
From reading the logs, NSO didn't think there was going to be a problem and were surprised that there was. This is probably the reason why GATO wasn't informed until it was late in the day.

The more I think about it, nobody comes out of this looking well.
[/quote]

^^ sums it up nicely for me

Poor show GATO, could have at least waited till after the war

[MadScotII]

[quote name='Joe32320' timestamp='1281375175' post='2407835']
^^ sums it up nicely for me

Poor show GATO, could have at least waited till after the war
[/quote]

Especially when the NSO went on to make sure GATO would have been out of harms way by declaring that this is an NSO defensive action only

[dvdcchn]

[quote name='Laslo Kenez' timestamp='1281374979' post='2407827']
This is lovely stuff, but you're confusing "GATO acted outside the predefined conditions for voiding a treaty" for "GATO UPSET ALLY ". We are guilty of the latter, not the former. Your whining is wonderful though, it truly stings when the membership of alliances such as IRON don't approve of us.
[/quote]


i am sorry it truly stings, i guess it happens when you want to avoid the truth. and yes a lowly member of IRON even thinks you are crap, sorry but cancelling on an ally when being ganged up 5 to 1, when they are not asking for help is a pretty low move not including the made up reason for it. it wasn't the first time so there is no real shocker here.

[lamuella]

Congratulations to GATO on their move to Yellow!

[Lanore]

[b][center][Color=#004ce0]I want to say a few things, to clear up the current misconception about GATO, or GATOans, being cowards.

The military command was scrambled, messages were sent, the private lobby was packed full, and people were ready to do their collects, buy up military, last minute wonders, ect. They were literally waiting for the heads up from GATO gov and a DoW. GATO was ready, and many GATOans wanted to go to war for NSO. Some GATOans saw it as an inevitability and welcomed it.

This decision wasn't made by GATO, but by it's elected officials. As you all know sometimes elected officials don't speak for the majority well. I want to take partial responsibility for this, because I had access to many of the conversations, logs, ect, and when this came about, I rubber stamped my approval. It's my job to care about the internal affairs of GATO, and I didn't think this was good or right for the alliance, and I shamelessly gave my approval.

This move is legal.
This move was correct in its execution.
This move was, on my part, entirely to save GATO's tail end. It was inherently cowardly, even though I was prepared for war.

NSO, I threw you under the bus; I don't apologize; and it has nothing to do with you as people. If anyone is to be hated, hate me, or hate GATO gov, don't hate the actual GATOans who were actually ready to burn their nations to the ground for you.

Sincerely,
Lanore, GATO MoDA. [/color][/center][/b]

[Locke]

Legal? Can't deny. But I'm pretty much always against cancelling treaties on the eve of war, or during it. Fulfill the obligation and [i]then[/i] cancel; it may hurt for a while, but it doesn't leave that bad taste in your mouths. There are alliances out there that say "$%&@ morals," but I never thought I'd count GATO amongst them.

[ConeBone69]

[quote name='Lanore' timestamp='1281376051' post='2407868']
[b][center][Color=#004ce0]Stuff[/color][/center][/b]
[/quote]
Actually, on a second reading, you are still defending your actions even though you admit it was cowardly and only out for GATO's well being, and with absolute disregard for your allies'. For shame, but at least you admit it has nothing to do with the "lack of communication" and that it was only used as an out.

Edited August 9, 2010 by ConeBone69

[Alterego]

Maybe you will protect them if they change their aa to none. You are a joke of an alliance. From your early days to today you are about a poor an ally as you could find. Go crawl into a hole and vanish. Morals? ha!

[Goldie]

[quote name='Lanore' timestamp='1281376051' post='2407868']
[b][center][Color=#004ce0]This decision wasn't made by GATO, but by it's elected officials. As you all know sometimes elected officials don't speak for the majority well.[/color][/center][/b]
[/quote]

Cmon, you can do better than that. GATO is a 100% democratically elected alliance. Every member of GATO had a vote in their government therefore they voted for this leadership and this decision in crisis. If there was worry that this could happen, better diligence should have been paid during the election campaigns as to what certain stances would be when faced with an split decision on war.

[GulagArchipelago]

[quote name='Locke' timestamp='1281376284' post='2407876']
Legal? Can't deny. But I'm pretty much always against cancelling treaties on the eve of war, or during it. Fulfill the obligation and [i]then[/i] cancel; it may hurt for a while, but it doesn't leave that bad taste in your mouths. There are alliances out there that say "$%&@ morals," but I never thought I'd count GATO amongst them.
[/quote]

We were going to go in on NSO's side and then cancel. However, we found out that NSO didn't even tell us of this incident at all, so when the war started, the treaty was null and void due to the wording.

[Benacular]

[quote name='Lanore' timestamp='1281376051' post='2407868']
[b][center][Color=#004ce0]I want to say a few things, to clear up the current misconception about GATO, or GATOans, being cowards.

The military command was scrambled, messages were sent, the private lobby was packed full, and people were ready to do their collects, buy up military, last minute wonders, ect. They were literally waiting for the heads up from GATO gov and a DoW. GATO was ready, and many GATOans wanted to go to war for NSO. Some GATOans saw it as an inevitability and welcomed it.

This decision wasn't made by GATO, but by it's elected officials. As you all know sometimes elected officials don't speak for the majority well. I want to take partial responsibility for this, because I had access to many of the conversations, logs, ect, and when this came about, I rubber stamped my approval. It's my job to care about the internal affairs of GATO, and I didn't think this was good or right for the alliance, and I shamelessly gave my approval.

This move is legal.
This move was correct in its execution.
This move was, on my part, entirely to save GATO's tail end. It was inherently cowardly, even though I was prepared for war.

NSO, I threw you under the bus; I don't apologize; and it has nothing to do with you as people. If anyone is to be hated, hate me, or hate GATO gov, don't hate the actual GATOans who were actually ready to burn their nations to the ground for you.

Sincerely,
Lanore, GATO MoDA. [/color][/center][/b]
[/quote]

That took balls to say

[Locke]

[quote name='GulagArchipelago' timestamp='1281376535' post='2407884']
We were going to go in on NSO's side and then cancel. However, we found out that NSO didn't even tell us of this incident at all, so when the war started, the treaty was null and void due to the wording.
[/quote]
Again, I can't deny it was legal. Just a bad move, and makes for bad PR to boot. I haven't read through the topic so I can't say if NSO gov is pissed or not, but if you were at all interested in preserving the bond between you, despite the error of not notifying you, this was most definitely the wrong move to make.

[Jrenster]

[quote name='Lanore' timestamp='1281376051' post='2407868']
[b][center][Color=#004ce0]I want to say a few things, to clear up the current misconception about GATO, or GATOans, being cowards.

The military command was scrambled, messages were sent, the private lobby was packed full, and people were ready to do their collects, buy up military, last minute wonders, ect. They were literally waiting for the heads up from GATO gov and a DoW. GATO was ready, and many GATOans wanted to go to war for NSO. Some GATOans saw it as an inevitability and welcomed it.

This decision wasn't made by GATO, but by it's elected officials. As you all know sometimes elected officials don't speak for the majority well. I want to take partial responsibility for this, because I had access to many of the conversations, logs, ect, and when this came about, I rubber stamped my approval. It's my job to care about the internal affairs of GATO, and I didn't think this was good or right for the alliance, and I shamelessly gave my approval.

This move is legal.
This move was correct in its execution.
This move was, on my part, entirely to save GATO's tail end. It was inherently cowardly, even though I was prepared for war.

NSO, I threw you under the bus; I don't apologize; and it has nothing to do with you as people. If anyone is to be hated, hate me, or hate GATO gov, don't hate the actual GATOans who were actually ready to burn their nations to the ground for you.

Sincerely,
Lanore, GATO MoDA. [/color][/center][/b]
[/quote]

You know what? I'm actually fine with this. I don't hate anyone in your alliance and I'm sure my fellow Sith can say the same. They probably don't hold you guys in high regard, though. But I'm happy that out of all of the GATO officials, you spoke the truth. I appreciate straight forward honesty.

[GulagArchipelago]

[quote name='Locke' timestamp='1281376685' post='2407888']
Again, I can't deny it was legal. Just a bad move, and makes for bad PR to boot. I haven't read through the topic so I can't say if NSO gov is pissed or not, but if you were at all interested in preserving the bond between you, despite the error of not notifying you, this was most definitely the wrong move to make.
[/quote]

The bond was never really there after NSO signed up with IRON without telling us. I expected the treaty to die out soon, just not now...

[ConeBone69]

[quote name='Locke' timestamp='1281376685' post='2407888']
Again, I can't deny it was legal. Just a bad move, and makes for bad PR to boot. I haven't read through the topic so I can't say if NSO gov is pissed or not, but if you were at all interested in preserving the bond between you, despite the error of not notifying you, this was most definitely the wrong move to make.
[/quote]
Even the legality of it is in question as NSO gov had a multi-hour conversation with Omni about the war detailing every aspect as soon as they found they were going to be attacked.

[Alterego]

[quote name='GulagArchipelago' timestamp='1281376802' post='2407893']
The bond was never really there after NSO signed up with IRON without telling us. I expected the treaty to die out soon, just not now...
[/quote]
So you're not just cowards you're 2 faced allies.

[ConeBone69]

[quote name='GulagArchipelago' timestamp='1281376802' post='2407893']
The bond was never really there after NSO signed up with IRON without telling us. I expected the treaty to die out soon, just not now...
[/quote]
So then just call it what it is, you didn't want to be treaty partners anymore and this was the opportune time to get out. It wasn't a hard decision and you guys weren't reluctant about doing it, you were looking for a reason to cancel.

[Letum]

[quote name='goldielax25' timestamp='1281376380' post='2407880']
Cmon, you can do better than that. GATO is a 100% democratically elected alliance. Every member of GATO had a vote in their government therefore they voted for this leadership and this decision in crisis. If there was worry that this could happen, better diligence should have been paid during the election campaigns as to what certain stances would be when faced with an split decision on war.
[/quote]

Well, it's not truly inaccurate. GATO is, after all, a republic rather than an absolute democracy; and as such, it will follow the policy the leaders think is best rather than what the majority wills.

Now, the two will be broadly similar, but leader's positions and membership opinion will diverge at points - with the election system serving as a "control" measure if the two diverge too much. GATO's electorate did choose the government, but to go on and say that they "chose" this specific decision is quite a stretch. Any competent government knows that there are times it has to make tough and unpopular decisions.

[Lanore]

[quote name='goldielax25' timestamp='1281376380' post='2407880']
Cmon, you can do better than that. GATO is a 100% democratically elected alliance. Every member of GATO had a vote in their government therefore they voted for this leadership and this decision in crisis. If there was worry that this could happen, better diligence should have been paid during the election campaigns as to what certain stances would be when faced with an split decision on war.
[/quote]
[b][center][Color=#004ce0]Well actually, due to recent issues, two of the current Ministers, including myself, were appointed.

Regardless, it wasn't like there was an up and down vote over the entire alliance on this matter. Fact is things lined up one way, and we fell to the most beneficial side. I can't speak for the other officials, Omni and SirSci and congress were likely angry about getting this info from a third party, and cancelled the treaty because of that.

I'm here to speak for myself, and what I saw. GATOans were getting ready for war, waiting for the word from Gov. Our Allies were against us going in, and some were likely declaring on NSO with RoK, and upon thinking about that and GATO's needs I shamelessly gave my approval. Period. That is all I came to say: that GATO members were ready, and their Gov turned this down. My reason for being against it was complete cowardice, and I can live with that.

Omni, and the rest of Gov likely had their own reasons, far more noble than mine. They acted due to what they felt was right, legal, and just. I just came to own up to this, and let NSO know that I did it because I felt it was best for GATO.

If it is any reconciliation, I likely won't ever get elected because of these posts. [/color][/center][/b]

[GulagArchipelago]

[quote name='Alterego' timestamp='1281377059' post='2407904']
So both were 2 faced allies.
[/quote]

Fixed it for ya.