Ragnarok Declaration of War

[shilo]

[quote name='Tautology' timestamp='1281797754' post='2415704']
You know as well as I do that neither war nor peace is ever necessary or [i]italicized necessary[i].

What "people" (most OWF poster "people" anyway) really like is to give their personal opinions about how necessary or unnecessary a decision was. Emotive words such as "war-mongering" are merely devices used in an attempt to give weight to their opinions.
[/quote]
I don't think so. There are quite many that truly are warmongers, on an individual level as tech raiders, and on an alliance level, for example when you use a 4k NS nation to start a war. Both means you wanted war, both means you don't care for diplomacy to attempt to solve the situation before a war starts.
And there are quite many that think that talking before taking action should occur. This is where the whole "necessary" comes from. Necessary means you ran out of diplomatic options. Which by all means definitely wasn't the case here.

Warmongers don't run out of reasons to start wars.

[Tautology]

[quote name='PotFace' timestamp='1281798204' post='2415712']
If you're trying to convince us that war-mongering is acceptable, then please explain to me how the Karma War [i]really[/i] came to be. The way I see it, it was a war that was dedicated toward ending global hegemony. It was the largest assembly of a single team in the history of the cyberverse. So apparently, it's not just my opinion alone.[/quote]
I'm not trying to convince you that war-mongering is acceptable.

[PotFace]

[quote name='Tautology' timestamp='1281798405' post='2415716']
I'm not trying to convince you that war-mongering is acceptable.
[/quote]


Just checking - I thought that's where you were going with that. And so, back to what I was saying, if war-mongering isn't [i]acceptable[/i], and we know that unnecessary wars = war-mongering, then we now have the issue here at hand: "[i]is RoK war-mongering?[/i]". To date, much of the confusion here in this topic has been that question, being answered with "but the CB is [i]valid[/i]". Really, that doesn't answer the question at all. The only person in this topic that has come even remotely close to explaining any viable answer was Van Hoo.

Yes, the CB is valid. But is this war really necessary? Most of us feel that it isn't, because when you come out and post a DoW like this, what you're really telling people is "we were either too unwilling or too incompetent to handle a trivial situation like this in a fashion that most other alliances would, so here's a DoW."

[Tautology]

[quote name='PotFace' timestamp='1281798984' post='2415721']
...
Yes, the CB is valid. But is this war really necessary?...[/quote]
I thought I'd made it clear that "necessary" is far too subjective a term to use in an environment where there are such divergent views. You're flogging a dead horse.

Edit: That sounds overly critical. If you want to use "necessary" to talk about this war, try to come up with a definition that people can agree on, or a set of criteria, or some illustrative examples. Without some kind of shared understanding, discussion is futile.

Edited August 14, 2010 by Tautology

[PotFace]

[quote name='Tautology' timestamp='1281799200' post='2415725']
I thought I'd made it clear that "necessary" is far too subjective a term to use in an environment where there are such divergent views. You're flogging a dead horse.
[/quote]


I think we all know what the word "necessary" means here. The fact that the Karma War even happened proves that - I don't think that the community's views are as divergent as you'd like them to be. I mean, this isn't an interrogation or anything - you don't have to give an answer if you don't want to. But if you're making an attempt to quell our concerns about this war, then it may be [i]necessary[/i] to eventually. Dissecting words from sentences and debating their meanings in an attempt to circumvent [i]common sense[/i] (another subjective term, btw)is really not helping us get to the bottom of this.

[Rampage3]

[quote name='PotFace' timestamp='1281799873' post='2415732']
I think we all know what the word "necessary" means here. The fact that the Karma War even happened proves that - I don't think that the community's views are as divergent as you'd like them to be. I mean, this isn't an interrogation or anything - you don't have to give an answer if you don't want to. But if you're making an attempt to quell our concerns about this war, then it may be [i]necessary[/i] to eventually. Dissecting words from sentences and debating their meanings in an attempt to circumvent [i]common sense[/i] (another subjective term, btw)is really not helping us get to the bottom of this.
[/quote]

There is no getting to the bottom of this. In your opinion, we should have somehow done more. To claim that [i]necessary[/i] is a universal term only allows you to play a game where you can constantly "move the goalposts", so to speak. If we'd waited another day, surely we could have waited another. If we had waited two with nothing, surely we could have overlooked all of this for a 4K nation and 6 million dollars, at least in your eyes. Why should you care how long we wait, it is not YOUR protectorate right?

But the fact is, our protectorate program in Ragnablok means something. And one of the most important things about us in general is that if we are WITH you and you get hit, we roll to protect you. And if you are expecting us to compromise THAT to ease your discomfort, then you will be disappointed. I am fine with my protectorate being defended if all I have to concern myself with is your hurt feelings.

Edited August 14, 2010 by Rampage3

[LokiLockpicker]

I'm still not understanding how people are claiming that Ragnarok didn't let NSO know. Both sides have admitted to the logs of an NSO representative being told about the attack, being told that sending aid to the guy they were at war with was an act of war, and basically saying screw it and ordering that the aid be sent.

I'm also shocked that this hasn't been resolved, sending $6 mil to each of the nations that guy was at war with would have been a relatively fair compromise, and $24 mil to avoid/end a war seems to be a small price. Shoot, $3 mil each would have probably been fair. Although, with NSO's stance of not paying reps, and sending money out to cover your mistakes being reps, I guess that would explain why it is still ongoing.

[PotFace]

[quote name='Rampage3' timestamp='1281800809' post='2415740']
There is no getting to the bottom of this. In your opinion, we should have somehow done more. To claim that [i]necessary[/i] is a universal term only allows you to play a game where you can constantly "move the goalposts", so to speak. If we'd waited another day, surely we could have waited another. If we had waited two with nothing, surely we could have overlooked all of this for a 4K nation and 6 million dollars, at least in your eyes. Why should you care how long we wait, it is not YOUR protectorate right?

But the fact is, our protectorate program in Ragnablok means something. And one of the most important things about us in general is that if we are WITH you and you get hit, we roll to protect you. And if you are expecting us to compromise THAT to ease your discomfort, then you will be disappointed. I am fine with my protectorate being defended if all I have to concern myself with is your hurt feelings.
[/quote]


So what you're really saying is that not only will my question go unanswered, but also, it doesn't really matter what any of us think about your OP. You know, I'm not really the type to guarantee the way other people do [i]their[/i] business, by any means, but BCOM has a University with a curriculum that's tailored specifically toward handling foreign affairs. If you're interested, I'd be more than willing to mask a RoK volunteer to come and grab what we have. After all, you jolly-well can't complain about something if you're not actively trying to do something about it....

[Vol Navy]

[quote name='lazaraus45' timestamp='1281791341' post='2415639']
your logic is flawed, if this was the CB why would we be hitting NSO, that CB would also work on NPO, and we all know they're the real target right?
[/quote]


I am not sure how my logic is flawed. You can curbstomp NSO much much more easily than you could NPO. Therefore you have the abilty to be extremely aggressive with them because you have the might to do so. I am not saying it's wrong, just that quite a few people who currently support you for doing this whined insufferably about the same type of behavior last year during Karma.

[Tautology]

[quote name='PotFace' timestamp='1281801925' post='2415750']
So what you're really saying is that not only will my question go unanswered, ...[/quote]
Just because you don't like the answer Rampage gave you, don't pretend you can't see it.

[quote]... but also, it doesn't really matter what any of us think about your OP ...[/quote]
It matters to us but less than you'd like it to.

[PotFace]

[quote name='Tautology' timestamp='1281802289' post='2415759']
Just because you don't like the answer Rampage gave you, don't pretend you can't see it.
[/quote]

It was a "yes" or "no" question. Was this DoW really necessary? So, no, I haven't received an answer to it yet. Let's try and speak the same language we've all agreed upon.


[quote name='Tautology' timestamp='1281802289' post='2415759']
It matters to us but less than you'd like it to.
[/quote]

You are a real quote factory!!! Thank you for clearing that up. If we could keep this kind of progress flowing, by George, I think we'll be at a conclusion before the end of the war!!

[Rampage3]

[quote name='PotFace' timestamp='1281801925' post='2415750']
So what you're really saying is that not only will my question go unanswered, but also, it doesn't really matter what any of us think about your OP. You know, I'm not really the type to guarantee the way other people do [i]their[/i] business, by any means, but BCOM has a University with a curriculum that's tailored specifically toward handling foreign affairs. If you're interested, I'd be more than willing to mask a RoK volunteer to come and grab what we have. After all, you jolly-well can't complain about something if you're not actively trying to do something about it....
[/quote]

No, what I am saying is that I specifically am unconcerned with what YOU think about the OP, specifically your assertion that TENE should lie under aggression while we talk until you can feel like we did enough.

Oh and our FA is fine...ask anyone. We are direct, succinct, and we can be depended on to do precisely what we say.

[PotFace]

[quote name='Rampage3' timestamp='1281803280' post='2415769']
No, what I am saying is that I specifically am unconcerned with what YOU think about the OP, specifically your assertion that TENE should lie under aggression while we talk until you can feel like we did enough.
[/quote]
This wasn't an "emergency" situation. So, yes, this could have waited a few days to ensure more thoroughness in execution of this DoW. As you can see, it would have been worth it.




[quote name='Rampage3' timestamp='1281803280' post='2415769']
We are direct, succinct, and we can be depended on to do precisely what we say.
[/quote]

We certainly know [i]that[/i] now don't we? And if there was any concern about this, you guys [i]definitely[/i] just put it to rest.



Here's 2 more questions that you guys don't have to answer -

1. If you guys can decide not to care about my own questions and opinions, then what's to show that you won't be doing the same with everyone else? -and-
2. Has RoK released surrender terms yet? If so, what are they? If not, how come?

[Adrian LaCroix]

[quote name='PotFace' timestamp='1281803073' post='2415765']
It was a "yes" or "no" question. Was this DoW really necessary? So, no, I haven't received an answer to it yet. Let's try and speak the same language we've all agreed upon.




You are a real quote factory!!! Thank you for clearing that up. If we could keep this kind of progress flowing, by George, I think we'll be at a conclusion before the end of the war!!
[/quote]

No war is ever necessary. Period. But not everyone is GPA, and some people would rather not sit on their hands when they feel they've been slighted.

[PotFace]

[quote name='Adrian LaCroix' timestamp='1281803961' post='2415779']
No war is ever necessary. Period. But not everyone is GPA, and some people would rather not sit on their hands when they feel they've been slighted.
[/quote]


I gotta get you guys to stop thinking on paper here. Now, this is just my opinion here (and I say that so that the closed-minded thinkers don't get offended), but I'd like to think that sometimes, war [i]is[/i] necessary. For the following circumstances:

- to preserve alliance sovereignty (self-defense)
- to preserve alliance integrity (no spying)
- to preserve alliance man-power (no poaching)
- to preserve any other alliance structure (variable)
- to preserve alliance credibility (honoring promises)

And I sure bet you're glad that I mentioned that last one. Because it's the last one that would stand any chance of validating this war as a [i]necessary[/i] war. However, it doesn't. And the reason why, is that RoK's promise to TENE could have been upheld by simply attacking the "rogue" in question until such time as it became very clear that diplomacy had failed. Most of us are in agreement here that RoK didn't try hard enough to avoid war. And that's simply where most of the heat is coming from.

Since that also falls along the lines of "alliance credibility", I'd hate to think that RoK's main motivation here was to preserve its credibility in honoring its promises, while at the same time, tarnishing its credibility by failing to conduct thorough diplomacy prior to going to war.

Also, again, have surrender terms been issued yet? I can't wait to see those....

[Van Hoo III]

[quote name='shilo' timestamp='1281797734' post='2415703']Going from this to attacking the nation without having a chat with NSO before commencing attacks is what started this conflict.[/quote]

How many different ways do we have to tell you that we [b]did[/b] talk to them before attacking?

Yeah, this is where you say "ok sorry, I will stop repeating this over and over and over again ..."


[quote]But none of this happened, what happened is that RoK wanted to start a war, and got it.[/quote]

Yes, we wanted to start a war so we got this guy to tangle with our protectorate, convinced the Sith to accept him and protect him, and [b]then[/b] tricked them into sending aid. We are flipping masterminds over here. I mean seriously, that is amazing stuff.

[PotFace]

Just confirmed with Lennox over at NSO that no surrender terms have been issued to them. That's just horrible. Terrible !! Because now you guys are showing us that, not only is the CB where you put most of your concern, but you guys actually set out to accomplish a goal, without having a goal. The only possible way that would be untrue, is if your goal was war itself. Sure, there's been a few instances in which a DoW has been posted without surrender terms. But in those cases, the goal was war itself as well.

RoK did little to avoid war, it did little to show that it was necessary, and it has done nothing at all to try to end it. Yes, this looks like war-mongering. It looks like [i]hegemony[/i]. There's no need to take that out on anyone else - we're not responsible for any of it. You guys are.

Right now, seriously, the best thing that can be done to clean up this mess, is to offer white peace, let NSO accept it, both parties pretend like nothing ever happened, and just move on. Because anything else at this point would be supporting the idea that RoK is now a hegemonic alliance.

[TypoNinja]

[quote name='PotFace' timestamp='1281806985' post='2415817']
Just confirmed with Lennox over at NSO that no surrender terms have been issued to them. That's just horrible. Terrible !! Because now you guys are showing us that, not only is the CB where you put most of your concern, but you guys actually set out to accomplish a goal, without having a goal. The only possible way that would be untrue, is if your goal was war itself. Sure, there's been a few instances in which a DoW has been posted without surrender terms. But in those cases, the goal was war itself as well.
[/quote]

This is 2010 not 2006, the war is a few days old. Welcome to this year.

[quote]RoK did little to avoid war, it did little to show that it was necessary, and it has done nothing at all to try to end it. Yes, this looks like war-mongering. It looks like [i]hegemony[/i]. There's no need to take that out on anyone else - we're not responsible for any of it. You guys are.[/quote]

Rok did plenty to avoid this war, they told NSO exactly what would get a war, to avoid war all NSO had to do was not send aid, not commit an act of war after having been warning about it. NSO wanted to play chicken with Rok. Guess who didn't blink? Almost any action from NSO other than sending aid would have resulted in more talking. NSO picked the one thing (short of a preemptive strike) that would be sure to get them a war and you say Rok didn't do enough? what about NSO?

[quote]
Right now, seriously, the best thing that can be done to clean up this mess, is to offer white peace, let NSO accept it, both parties pretend like nothing ever happened, and just move on. Because anything else at this point would be supporting the idea that RoK is now a hegemonic alliance.
[/quote]

You are delusional.

Edited August 14, 2010 by TypoNinja

[PotFace]

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1281809163' post='2415863']
This is 2010 not 2006, the war is a few days old. Welcome to this year.
[/quote]
Not exactly sure if you're agreeing with me or not here. Please elaborate.


[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1281809163' post='2415863']
Rok did plenty to avoid this war, they told NSO exactly what would get a war, to avoid war all NSO had to do was not send aid, not commit an act of war after having been warning about it. NSO wanted to play chicken with Rok. Guess who didn't blink? Almost any action from NSO other than sending aid would have resulted in more talking. NSO picked the one thing (short of a preemptive strike) that would be sure to get them a war and you say Rok didn't do enough? what about NSO?
[/quote]
Well, it appears I can't get you guys to take your attention off of the CB. And in failing to do so, you guys continue to confirm that the objective was war itself. Thank you for clearing that up. I'll be sure to strike that off my list as an answered question now. I've heard this from enough people to be satisfied with that answer. Can you answer any of these questions for me:

Now that war has been declared, and is in full effect, would you say that [i]now, at this time,[/i] RoK and friends have accomplished what they set out to do? If the objective here was to defend TENE, and we can clearly see that is now done with, what's next? What keeps this war going? Why haven't terms been issued yet?

[Heft]

[quote name='Van Hoo III' timestamp='1281805861' post='2415802']
How many different ways do we have to tell you that we [b]did[/b] talk to them before attacking?

Yeah, this is where you say "ok sorry, I will stop repeating this over and over and over again ..."
[/quote]
The conversations prior to the attacks ended with us asking that we be contacted with further evidence or claims prior to the attacks being launched, and rampage not disagreeing or giving any sign that this was an issue. The claim that you believed sedrick spied first wasn't even [i]mentioned[/i] until I went and asked why you were attacking him, and still remained little more than a presumption.

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1281809163' post='2415863']
Rok did plenty to avoid this war, they told NSO exactly what would get a war, to avoid war all NSO had to do was not send aid, not commit an act of war after having been warning about it. NSO wanted to play chicken with Rok. Guess who didn't blink? Almost any action from NSO other than sending aid would have resulted in more talking. NSO picked the one thing (short of a preemptive strike) that would be sure to get them a war and you say Rok didn't do enough? what about NSO?
[/quote]
You do understand that labeling an action as an act of war does not constitute trying to avoid war, correct? From the way the conversation was going, and the way things have gone since, I would certainly have to disagree with the idea that more talks would have been had if I had not authorized the aid. It was pretty clear, both from their actions and their words, that they had no interest in resolving the issue with us.

Also, the aid was an alternative to a [i]retaliatory[/i] strike, not a pre-emptive strike.

[Hyperbad]

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1281809163' post='2415863']
Rok did plenty to avoid this war, they told NSO exactly what would get a war, to avoid war all NSO had to do was not send aid, not commit an act of war after having been warning about it. NSO wanted to play chicken with Rok. Guess who didn't blink? Almost any action from NSO other than sending aid would have resulted in more talking. NSO picked the one thing (short of a preemptive strike) that would be sure to get them a war and you say Rok didn't do enough? what about NSO?[/quote]

[quote name='Heft' timestamp='1281812457' post='2415896']
The conversations prior to the attacks ended with us asking that we be contacted with further evidence or claims prior to the attacks being launched, and rampage not disagreeing or giving any sign that this was an issue. The claim that you believed sedrick spied first wasn't even [i]mentioned[/i] until I went and asked why you were attacking him, and still remained little more than a presumption.

You do understand that labeling an action as an act of war does not constitute trying to avoid war, correct? From the way the conversation was going, and the way things have gone since, I would certainly have to disagree with the idea that more talks would have been had if I had not authorized the aid. It was pretty clear, both from their actions and their words, that they had no interest in resolving the issue with us.

Also, the aid was an alternative to a [i]retaliatory[/i] strike, not a pre-emptive strike.[/quote]
So basically what we have here is both alliances conducting what's considered by the other as an act of war. Both likely knew it would force the other's hand in some way but I would wager they were also both hopeful they could prevent escalation into all-out war however things snowballed regardless of their desire.

[PotFace]

[quote name='Hyperbad' timestamp='1281816317' post='2415939']
So basically what we have here is both alliances conducting what's considered by the other as an act of war. Both likely knew it would force the other's hand in some way but I would wager they were also both hopeful they could prevent escalation into all-out war however things snowballed regardless of their desire.
[/quote]

If that was the case, the OP wouldn't include a DoW, now would it?

[Hyperbad]

[quote name='PotFace' timestamp='1281817869' post='2415960']
If that was the case, the OP wouldn't include a DoW, now would it?
[/quote]
I can see multiple ways which your statement could be intended. Please clarify.

[PotFace]

[quote name='Hyperbad' timestamp='1281818018' post='2415962']
I can see multiple ways which your statement could be intended. Please clarify.
[/quote]


Sure. If you're trying to prevent an all-out war, then posting a DoW probably isn't the best way to go about doing that imo.

[shilo]

[quote name='Van Hoo III' timestamp='1281805861' post='2415802']
How many different ways do we have to tell you that we [b]did[/b] talk to them before attacking?

Yeah, this is where you say "ok sorry, I will stop repeating this over and over and over again ..."


Yes, we wanted to start a war so we got this guy to tangle with our protectorate, convinced the Sith to accept him and protect him, and [b]then[/b] tricked them into sending aid. We are flipping masterminds over here. I mean seriously, that is amazing stuff.
[/quote]

Ok, maybe I simply used the wrong word here: I meant [i]discuss[/i]
Of course you made it clear that you were planning to violate their sovereignty from the start, and obviously with hindsight, knowing that you wanted the war, it would have been real smart to simply ask you whether you wanted some more sugar with your cup of tea instead of trying to actually solve the situation to the satisfaction of both parties - which is this odd concept called diplomacy I have been referring to when I meant "talking".

As you can see by Heft's post [quote name='Heft' timestamp='1281812457' post='2415896']
The conversations prior to the attacks ended with us asking that we be contacted with further evidence or claims prior to the attacks being launched, and rampage not disagreeing or giving any sign that this was an issue. The claim that you believed sedrick spied first wasn't even [i]mentioned[/i] until I went and asked why you were attacking him, and still remained little more than a presumption.

[/quote]

, he too was going with my definition of talking it over, ie talking until a solution agreeable to both sides has been found, not talking until the hitlists had been updated (if that even occurred simultaneously).

And once more more, you attacked a nation under NSO protection, and then you attacked NSO directly because they dared to aid that nation. And of course, if one thinks in your terms of "talking", that is a straight line of logic.
What kinda bugs me is that you had shown no effort to work on a solution that would not a) lead to war with NSO b) give NSO the time to make a clear cut decision on whether they wanted to protect him in [u]this[/u] instant as well or not, and I do wonder why you were in such a rush? Why did it only take you one hour to explain that you wanted to start a war? Why didn't you take another 24h to work on a peaceful solution - and even (I know how far this is away from your concept of talking) maybe used the mediators that offered their service - and then still you could have curb stomped NSO like you are doing now.

Of course, there is one reason that explains your rush: you were afraid that NSO might find out your intentions and jump to peacemode before you could effectively curbstomp them.
Then of course, all this makes a whole lot of more sense. But then we also know you weren't looking for a solution, you were looking for war.

Edited August 14, 2010 by shilo