The New Grämlins

[mike717]

[quote name='Nizzle' date='08 May 2010 - 11:26 AM' timestamp='1273335981' post='2291388']
You quite clearly said this is a grave injustice, that it's on par with the things you wanted to do away with during Karma, but you aren't going to do anything. I mean, it's not a big deal. Sure, you don't want to act without a treaty. Who would do that? (Gremlins). I can get that. It's cool. I can understand you see this as extreme evil, but you don't want to ruin political capital.

It's alright, man, I understand.
[/quote]

no offense man, but, did you even read his post? That's not at all what he said.

[Nizzle]

[quote name='Alfred von Tirpitz' date='08 May 2010 - 10:28 AM' timestamp='1273336092' post='2291393']
But the owf wants YOU to DoW the Grämlins. You and your Posse. Aww crap.
[/quote]

I'm actually surprised RoK didn't try this method first.

[Il Impero Romano]

[quote name='Nizzle' date='08 May 2010 - 05:26 PM' timestamp='1273335981' post='2291388']
You quite clearly said this is a grave injustice, that it's on par with the things you wanted to do away with during Karma, but you aren't going to do anything. I mean, it's not a big deal. Sure, you don't want to act without a treaty. Who would do that? (Gremlins). I can get that. It's cool. I can understand you see this as extreme evil, but you don't want to ruin political capital.

It's alright, man, I understand.
[/quote]

No, that's really not what I said. Read it.

I clearly said before my alliance or any other uninvolved party gets their hands dirty, those who's responsibility it is to do so need to exhaust all their options or say they are unwilling first. I also made it clear that once the treaty partners of IRON and DAWN have done that or directly expressed they are unwilling to do what needs to be done, getting our hands dirty is an option, albeit of last resort.

So yea, I literally said the exact opposite of what you framed it as.

Edited May 8, 2010 by Il Impero Romano

[Zangmonkey]

[quote name='Gamemaster1' date='08 May 2010 - 09:28 AM' timestamp='1273336086' post='2291392']
No, we are saying you aren't right. It's an added bonus that you aren't in any position to try and enforce your position.
[/quote]

You haven't really made any claims about Gremlins being incorrect. You've primarily made claims about how we're losing members, losing the war, and should take white peace.

Those two concepts: winning and being right, are not married.
If you want to say that we are morally wrong then you've got a lot of discussion to get out here.

[Nizzle]

[quote name='mike717' date='08 May 2010 - 10:29 AM' timestamp='1273336151' post='2291395']
no offense man, but, did you even read his post? That's not at all what he said.
[/quote]


Then what does this paragraph mean? He likes chocolate?

[quote]At the same time, I do believe [b]something must be done[/b]. A year ago my alliance and many, many others put their all into changing the way things worked, and this situation is[b] categorically aligned[/b] to that which we wanted[b] to rid this planet of[/b] because of the [b]fundamental injustice[/b] behind such acts and the detrimental effects that they have on the community. Because of that, I believe it [b]must not be allowed[/b] to continue or prove beneficial for Gre in any way. But, on the face of the matter [b]its not our place to interfere[/b], nor is it that of anyone else who does not hold a treaty with the aggrieved. An outside and uninvolved party such as us should not have to step in and rectify this, that should be the duty and province of IRON/DAWN's treaty partners above all else. [/quote]

Sooo...."It's bad, it's horrible, it cannot be allowed. But, we aren't going to do anything. IRON/DAWN's war torn allies should." It's called consolidating.

Edited May 8, 2010 by Nizzle

[shilo]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='08 May 2010 - 02:17 AM' timestamp='1273274228' post='2290744']
So you're saying that people have, in fact, talked to VE and other captor alliances to get released? And you're also saying that you have spoken to the leadership of the alliances you claim have threatened you to intervene on GRE's behalf?

I don't think I'm mistaken. I don't think any of the above has occurred.
[/quote]
No, didn't even come close to what I was getting at. This is not meant to insult you, as my previous post here. You are not informed, you stated you don't want to be informed, so obviously you really don't know what I am talking about. Since I don't really can get further into this, I too cannot inform you.

[quote name='KingEd' date='08 May 2010 - 03:18 AM' timestamp='1273277874' post='2290816']
I suspect something much much better, If I were you I would stay tuned to Gremlins TV for the next few weeks.


[/quote]
I love it when an uninvolved third party tells me stuff not even the Archons in gRAMlins (apparently) know.

[quote name='Alekhine' date='08 May 2010 - 07:18 AM' timestamp='1273292271' post='2291048']
Bobdole, Tobbogon, MaDSpartus, and I all legitimately resigned and left today.
[/quote]
So you are seriously telling me that there is not a single soul left in your alliance with the ability to think and speak autonomously?
I think that means there is definitely no other way then but to work towards the effective elimination of gRAMlins, I am very pessimistic for any other outcome now.

[Delta1212]

So, Nizzle, how many Grämlins nations have you declared on so far?

[Alfred von Tirpitz]

[quote name='Nizzle' date='08 May 2010 - 09:59 PM' timestamp='1273336163' post='2291396']
I'm actually surprised RoK didn't try this method first.
[/quote]

Hey now, just a non government peon here. I would not know what RoK government plans. Yeah they dont tell us stuff like that.

However, i have been reading this thread, and its like it has an echo. If you have followed what i have posted in this, or maybe one of the other two discussions regarding this issue, you would understand that i have no liking for the status as it is is today. I am just surprised it is taking so long to sort out. IRON can decimate Grämlins in open warfare now. Granted it wont be painless, but it is much easier now than it was when the other alliances all peaced out.

This is a !@#$%* situation made worse by bickering about it on and on and on and not whacking someone upside the head.


edit: Painless != Painful

Edited May 8, 2010 by Alfred von Tirpitz

[Nizzle]

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' date='08 May 2010 - 10:33 AM' timestamp='1273336362' post='2291399']
No, that's really not what I said. Read it.

I clearly said before my alliance or any other gets their hands dirty, those who's responsibility it is to do so need to exhaust all their options or say they are unwilling first. I also made it clear that once the treaty partners of IRON and DAWN have done that or directly expressed they are unwilling to do what needs to be done, getting our hands dirty is an option, albeit of last resort.

So yea, I literally said the exact opposite of what you framed it as.
[/quote]

The opposite would mean IRON/DAWN allies didn't have to do anything. If that were the case, you would act.

There is no difference between acting now, and realizing that IRON/DAWN allies don't have the capacity to assist, and waiting for them to tell you they have no capacity to assist. Of course, they've already said "We just got demolished in a war and are under terms." Yet, that doesn't meet the burden for your claim. Were you truly "shocked" at this behavior and wanted to stop it, you would assist them in securing a means to help IRON/DAWN.

Unfortunately, the relevant part of your belief is the middle paragraph I isolated. The rest is political fluff simply because you have done nothing excluding tough talk here.

[Il Impero Romano]

[quote name='Nizzle' date='08 May 2010 - 05:33 PM' timestamp='1273336373' post='2291401']
Then what does this paragraph mean? He likes chocolate?



Sooo...."It's bad, it's horrible, it cannot be allowed. But, we aren't going to do anything. IRON/DAWN's war torn allies should." It's called consolidating.
[/quote]

[quote]While I agree with the notion that it is an alliances right to declare war on whoever they so choose for whatever reason they so choose, [b]I feel that an exercise of such a sovereign right should be a measure of absolute last resort when not bound by treaty to do so or personally wronged. For such a thing to occur, all other options which could be taken to remedy the injustice would had to have been exhausted and proven unfruitful[/b]. We are a very legalistic community, and we go by the words enumerated in our charter and treaties first and foremost, and the powers which are implied within them second.

At the same time, I do believe something must be done. A year ago my alliance and many, many others put their all into changing the way things worked, and this situation is categorically aligned to that which we wanted to rid this planet of because of the fundamental injustice behind such acts and the detrimental effects that they have on the community. Because of that, I believe it must not be allowed to continue or prove beneficial for Gre in any way. But, on the face of the matter its not our place to interfere, nor is it that of anyone else who does not hold a treaty with the aggrieved. An outside and uninvolved party such as us should not have to step in and rectify this, that should be the duty and province of IRON/DAWN's treaty partners above all else.

Now like I said, I would not feel comfortable with "doing something" unless it was the absolute last resort, and I know for a fact here that none of those who's shoulders the duty of rectification should traditionally fall on have made any attempt to take action. They cannot say they are unable, because they have not even tested the waters to see if it is so. [b]But, if they will not take action because they are unwilling, they need to make it known so that others can decide if we are now within the area of last resort.[/b][/quote]

????

Really, what are you talking about, its right there.

[mike717]

[quote name='Nizzle' date='08 May 2010 - 11:33 AM' timestamp='1273336373' post='2291401']
Then what does this paragraph mean? He likes chocolate?



Sooo...."It's bad, it's horrible, it cannot be allowed. But, we aren't going to do anything. IRON/DAWN's war torn allies should." It's called consolidating.
[/quote]


Funny that you read only that, because this passage here:

[quote]Now like I said, I would not feel comfortable with "doing something" unless it was the absolute last resort, and I know for a fact here that none of those who's shoulders the duty of rectification should traditionally fall on have made any attempt to take action. They cannot say they are unable, because they have not even tested the waters to see if it is so. But, if they will not take action because they are unwilling, they need to make it known so that others can decide if we are now within the area of last resort.[/quote]

could easily be construed as something of a veiled threat. You see what you want to see, and i don't see anything wrong with impero's stance here.

[Nizzle]

[quote name='Delta1212' date='08 May 2010 - 10:34 AM' timestamp='1273336477' post='2291405']
So, Nizzle, how many Grämlins nations have you declared on so far?
[/quote]

And a completely valid attack from Delta1212. You've always been known as level headed.

I haven't attacked any gRAMlins because I am not prepared for war, similar to IRON/DAWN's allies. But, yeah, you definitely got me. Damn.

[quote name='Alfred von Tirpitz' date='08 May 2010 - 10:35 AM' timestamp='1273336529' post='2291407']
Hey now, just a non government peon here. I would not know what RoK government plans. Yeah they dont tell us stuff like that.

However, i have been reading this thread, and its like it has an echo. If you have followed what i have posted in this, or maybe one of the other two discussions regarding this issue, you would understand that i have no liking for the status as it is is today. I am just surprised it is taking so long to sort out. IRON can decimate Grämlins in open warfare now. Granted it wont be painful, but it is much easier now than it was when the other alliances all peaced out.

This is a !@#$%* situation made worse by bickering about it on and on and on and not whacking someone upside the head.
[/quote]

Of course there is an echo in this thread. It's fun. I had to throw in my obligatory "RoK is evil". When someone from Athens shows up they'll get theirs too.

[Nizzle]

[quote name='mike717' date='08 May 2010 - 10:38 AM' timestamp='1273336718' post='2291414']
Funny that you read only that, because this passage here:



could easily be construed as something of a veiled threat. You see what you want to see, and i don't see anything wrong with impero's stance here.
[/quote]

I read the only relevant part. Talking tough here doesn't turn into tough actions, and tough talk has been going on for weeks now. No one is going to do anything, and despite Impero's assertions I doubt he will try and help DAWN/IRONs allies find a way to help DAWN/IRON. It should be obvious that IRON/DAWN have no allies capable of doing anything, even without surrender terms, but still he sits talking about what they should do to strike out this horrible evil before he lifts a finger.

Yes, his little speech was inspiring and I smooth got excited that VE would enter. Then I thought about it and realized the duration of this "conflict". That's when you realize it's just politics.

[Alfred von Tirpitz]

[quote name='Nizzle' date='08 May 2010 - 10:10 PM' timestamp='1273336803' post='2291415']
Of course there is an echo in this thread. It's fun. I had to throw in my obligatory "RoK is evil". When someone from Athens shows up they'll get theirs too.
[/quote]

As long it is just obligatory and not really heartfelt.

[Gamemaster1]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='08 May 2010 - 12:33 PM' timestamp='1273336363' post='2291400']
You haven't really made any claims about Gremlins being incorrect. You've primarily made claims about how we're losing members, losing the war, and should take white peace.

Those two concepts: winning and being right, are not married.
If you want to say that we are morally wrong then you've got a lot of discussion to get out here.
[/quote]
Have you read this thread [b]at all?[/b]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' date='31 March 2010 - 03:50 PM' timestamp='1270064997' post='2242286']
[color="#0000FF"]I'm pretty sure Gre declared war on IRON to defend CnG, whom they have no treaties to. So let me get this straight, Gre is upset that IRON is always lining up against them even though it is Gre that is always declaring war? I just want to get my facts straight.[/color]
[/quote]

[quote name='Bob Janova' date='31 March 2010 - 03:57 PM' timestamp='1270065417' post='2242299']
This doesn't get any classier.

Unless people's terms have 'no re-entry' in them (which, let's be honest, all of them do, so the rest of this is moot), Grämlins have no treaties, so hitting them for global justice would be a pretty fair response. Certainly, I think that C&G and everyone else should be thinking about signing a separate peace and letting Grämlins stay out alone until they come to their senses.

It is a good thing not to leave a friend and ally on the field to die, but on the other hand, if they're abusing your power to be unreasonable, it's the right thing to do. I think people on that side are going to have a lot more understanding for TOP's decisions on the Echelon front in Karma after this, but [b]in this case there should be no doubt that the Grämlins terms are unreasonable[/b] and should not be supported by holding peace with the rest of the coalition for them.

You bring shame on the Grämlins name.
[/quote]

[quote name='AirMe' date='31 March 2010 - 04:02 PM' timestamp='1270065743' post='2242307']
What right does Ramirus and the Gremlins have to keep everyone in war when the main party involved on their side has already secured terms to end the war? Honestly, I will publicly say, to hell with Ram and the Gremlins, lets leave them on the field of battle. This was C&G's fight and we were here to support them, not Ram's ego. In this situation, Ram and Gremlins should defer to C&G's wishes instead of gumming the whole process up.
[/quote]

[quote name='AirMe' date='31 March 2010 - 04:08 PM' timestamp='1270066074' post='2242312']
I fought the Karma war to prevent crap like this, not condone it.
[/quote]


There's some on every page. Breaking codex, trying to make us unconditionally surrender...people here agree you are wrong.

Reading comprehension.

[Nizzle]

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' date='08 May 2010 - 10:37 AM' timestamp='1273336656' post='2291413']
????

Really, what are you talking about, its right there.
[/quote]

Yeah, the awe-inspiring "We will stand with you" lines? Give me a break. If several weeks has not been enough to display they cannot do anything, I don't know what will satisfy any of you. All you are doing is pandering. You're letting everyone know "We believe in good things" while doing precisely nothing about this horrible evil except pushing it off on others. It's the "Have your cake and eat it too" process. I applaud your abilities.

[Delta1212]

[quote name='Nizzle' date='08 May 2010 - 12:40 PM' timestamp='1273336803' post='2291415']
And a completely valid attack from Delta1212. You've always been known as level headed.

I haven't attacked any gRAMlins because I am not prepared for war, similar to IRON/DAWN's allies. But, yeah, you definitely got me. Damn.
[/quote]
And you know that everyone else is prepared to go fight another war, especially against an alliance that still has a fairly sizeable top tier even if it is dwindling? We just had one of the most damaging wars in the history of the game end a little over a month ago and since then everyone has spent their war chests rebuilding. I still have a big enough one to get by, but even mine is the lowest it has been in over a year, and I was over-prepared compared to the vast majority of the game.

Fighting Grämlins would be a crippling experience for most alliances at the best of times, which these are not. That fact lessens as time passes and Grämlins numbers dwindle and alliances build back up to adequate preparedness, but it's still true. Or does the unprepared quip only apply when it is you?

[Zangmonkey]

[quote name='shilo' date='08 May 2010 - 09:34 AM' timestamp='1273336454' post='2291404']
No, didn't even come close to what I was getting at. This is not meant to insult you, as my previous post here. You are not informed, you stated you don't want to be informed, so obviously you really don't know what I am talking about. Since I don't really can get further into this, I too cannot inform you.[/quote]

You're mixing people up. I never said I didn't want to be informed.
And, either I am more informed than you about what GRE wants here or you are deliberately shutting out information presented here.


[quote]I love it when an uninvolved third party tells me stuff not even the Archons in gRAMlins (apparently) know. [/quote]

I'd guess that KingEd doesn't know what he's talking about.


[quote]So you are seriously telling me that there is not a single soul left in your alliance with the ability to think and speak autonomously?
I think that means there is definitely no other way then but to work towards the effective elimination of gRAMlins, I am very pessimistic for any other outcome now.
[/quote]

How noble of you to work towards our elimination.

[Gamemaster1]

[quote name='Nizzle' date='08 May 2010 - 12:40 PM' timestamp='1273336803' post='2291415']
And a completely valid attack from Delta1212. You've always been known as level headed.
I haven't attacked any gRAMlins because I am not prepared for war, similar to IRON/DAWN's allies. But, yeah, you definitely got me. Damn.
[/quote]
It is a valid attack on you. If you want people to help, the first thing to do is help yourself. Everyone here is rebuilding from a war, not just you. To take a page from Athens' book...

Do something about it.

I already did.

[Zangmonkey]

[quote name='Gamemaster1' date='08 May 2010 - 09:44 AM' timestamp='1273337027' post='2291422']
Have you read this thread [b]at all?[/b]



There's some on every page. Breaking codex, trying to make us unconditionally surrender...people here agree you are wrong.

Reading comprehension.
[/quote]

I used the word "you" to mean "you".

Furthermore, I have countered the suggestions that we're violating the codex and that we "must want to impose harsh terms" with limited refutation.
There is simply no rationale for GRE wanted to impose harsh terms; and even if there was there would be no way to enforce them.

[Nizzle]

[quote name='Delta1212' date='08 May 2010 - 10:50 AM' timestamp='1273337409' post='2291433']
And you know that everyone else is prepared to go fight another war, especially against an alliance that still has a fairly sizeable top tier even if it is dwindling? We just had one of the most damaging wars in the history of the game end a little over a month ago and since then everyone has spent their war chests rebuilding. I still have a big enough one to get by, but even mine is the lowest it has been in over a year, and I was over-prepared compared to the vast majority of the game.[/quote]

It's so tough making due while receiving reps, isn't it? You also assume that many current gRAMlins wouldn't fold when faced with people standing against them.

[quote name='Delta1212' date='08 May 2010 - 10:50 AM' timestamp='1273337409' post='2291433']
Fighting Grämlins would be a crippling experience for most alliances at the best of times, which these are not. That fact lessens as time passes and Grämlins numbers dwindle and alliances build back up to adequate preparedness, but it's still true. Or does the unprepared quip only apply when it is you?
[/quote]

I'm having a hard time taking you seriously right now. You are now claiming the victors in a destructive war, who are receiving tech and money, are not prepared for another conflict where they vastly outnumber their possible opponent? hahahahahaha


[quote name='Gamemaster1' date='08 May 2010 - 10:51 AM' timestamp='1273337448' post='2291437']
It is a valid attack on you. If you want people to help, the first thing to do is help yourself. Everyone here is rebuilding from a war, not just you. To take a page from Athens' book...

Do something about it.

I already did.
[/quote]

Helping before I am prepared, and at the low range of available gRAMlins targets, is no help at all. Using my lack of preparedness to assert other alliances, with nations far outnumbering gRAMlins, are not prepared is absurd and another rather poor attempt to avoid responsibility. It's ok though.

[Il Impero Romano]

[quote name='Nizzle' date='08 May 2010 - 05:46 PM' timestamp='1273337159' post='2291425']
Yeah, the awe-inspiring "We will stand with you" lines? Give me a break. If several weeks has not been enough to display they cannot do anything, I don't know what will satisfy any of you. All you are doing is pandering. You're letting everyone know "We believe in good things" [i]while doing precisely nothing about this horrible evil except pushing it off on others[/i]. It's the "Have your cake and eat it too" process. I applaud your abilities.
[/quote]


Really, go back and read what I said. I don't understand why you keep saying that over and over again after I expressly made it known that the contrary was true. I mean, the text is right here in this thread, the relevant portions have been quoted and put in bold for you, you may want to just drop this one because its rather silly to keep yelling the sky is green when its quite obviously blue.

[Delta1212]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='08 May 2010 - 12:53 PM' timestamp='1273337595' post='2291440']
I used the word "you" to mean "you".

Furthermore, I have countered the suggestions that we're violating the codex and that we "must want to impose harsh terms" with limited refutation.
There is simply no rationale for GRE wanted to impose harsh terms; and even if there was there would be no way to enforce them.
[/quote]
But if you [I]don't[/I] want to impose harsh terms, then there is no rationale for wanting to seek an unconditional surrender before revealing them.

If the terms are not harsh, IRON and DAWN would have accepted them. Therefore, revealing the terms would end the war. Unconditional surrender is unwarranted in this case and there is a no rationale for using it.
If the terms are harsh, IRON and DAWN would not accept them. Therefore, they would need to be placed in a weaker position in order to impose the terms. Unconditional surrender is warranted in this case and there is a rationale for using it.
According to you:
There is no rationale for applying harsh terms.

Therefore, there are either harsh terms with no rationale or unconditional surrender with no rationale. In either case, Grämlins cannot be acting rationally and so any demand could be potentially made because you are already making or intending to make at least one irrational demand.

[Nizzle]

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' date='08 May 2010 - 11:00 AM' timestamp='1273338013' post='2291449']
Really, go back and read what I said. I don't understand why you keep saying that over and over again after I expressly made it known that the contrary was true. I mean, the text is right here in this thread, the relevant portions have been quoted and put in bold for you, you may want to just drop this one because its rather silly to keep yelling the sky is green when its quite obviously blue.
[/quote]

So, if the contrary is true, you've actively worked to assist IRON/DAWN in getting assistance from their allies? Or am I correct in the assumption you just continue to rant about it here?

I don't get what you aren't understanding. I don't care what you say, bud, it's about what you do. How long has this been going on? How much have you actually done? How long are you going to wait before you come to the already obvious conclusion that IRON/DAWN does not have very many allies capable of helping do anything other than fill slots? That is where my statements and assumptions come from. Don't get sad because I'm not taking everything you say for the truth, it's nothing personal. I'm just getting tired of hearing this lofty talk over and over. I mean, you may be fooling people already predisposed toward you...but not everyone.

[Nizzle]

[quote name='Delta1212' date='08 May 2010 - 11:02 AM' timestamp='1273338130' post='2291453']
But if you [I]don't[/I] want to impose harsh terms, then there is no rationale for wanting to seek an unconditional surrender before revealing them.

If the terms are not harsh, IRON and DAWN would have accepted them. Therefore, revealing the terms would end the war. Unconditional surrender is unwarranted in this case and there is a no rationale for using it.
If the terms are harsh, IRON and DAWN would not accept them. Therefore, they would need to be placed in a weaker position in order to impose the terms. Unconditional surrender is warranted in this case and there is a rationale for using it.
According to you:
There is no rationale for applying harsh terms.

Therefore, there are either harsh terms with no rationale or unconditional surrender with no rationale. In either case, Grämlins cannot be acting rationally and so any demand could be potentially made because you are already making or intending to make at least one irrational demand.
[/quote]

They are so twisted up in their own world, you cannot reason with them. It's been tried over and over. In the end, you just give up trying to explain to them that, as Impero said, "The sky is really blue, dude."