The New Grämlins

[Zangmonkey]

[quote name='Screwball' date='08 May 2010 - 03:28 PM' timestamp='1273357719' post='2291785']
You can't put them in a position where accepting unconditional surrender and then destroying their remaining ability to resist [I]themselves[/I] is preferable to continuing the war, no. That's not posturing; it's the truth. That doesn't change the fact that, if they [I]did[/I] accept your demand, and they [I]did[/I] decom all their military improvements and wonders, then they [I]would[/I] be in an untenable military situation and not have much recourse but to accept any terms you offered, no matter how harsh, or face complete destruction. [I]That's why they won't do it[/I].[/quote]

Who says they are being told to demon their military improvements and wonders?
And, more importantly, [b]why would they destroy their military wonders even if I told them to?[/b]

You say: "They would be forced to comply with your harsh terms!"
I say: "How could we possibly force them to comply with harsh terms?"
You say: "They wouldn't have a choice because they surrendered unconditionally"
I Say: "Surrendering unconditionally doesn't mean they have no choice but to accept harsh terms, even if we demanded harsh terms"
You say: "But they would be forced to comply with your harsh terms!"



[quote]Impose unreasonably harsh terms, like the ever-popular 'permanent tech farm' option. The 'you' was referring to Gramlins as a whole, by the way. ;p
[/quote]

Admin help me.
How on Earth could Gremlins ever force them to become a permanent tech farm?
Under the threat of continued war?
[b]This thread persists on peoples assertion that IRON WOULD WIN A CONTINUED WAR[/b]

Not to mention that if we actually made such a harsh term, I have said MANY TIMES that there is no dishonor in refusing slavery and that the entire cyberverse would have a moral obligation to intervene.

Edited May 8, 2010 by Matthew PK

[janax]

IRON and DAWN have both surrendered and admitted defeat to the parties they've wronged.

They should be under no obligation to stroke Ramirus's ego at this point.

Fix this and end it.

[Zangmonkey]

[quote name='Delta1212' date='08 May 2010 - 03:14 PM' timestamp='1273356840' post='2291758']
So unconditional surrender involves more than simply stating "I surrender unconditionally" in order to be valid? What else do they have to do?
[/quote]

Unconditional Surrender is the act of surrendering, unconditionally.
They are then given quarter, given terms, and they either comply or do not comply.

If they comply, restitution is served and the war is ended.
If they do not comply, hostilities resume (because I think you concede there is no other possibility?)

[Nizzle]

[quote name='Delta1212' date='08 May 2010 - 04:02 PM' timestamp='1273356137' post='2291743']
Would you declare war on Grämlins if you weren't still rebuilding from the war?
[/quote]

In an instant.

Also, I want to be clear about one thing: I fully support and agree with what VE, via Impero, is saying. The point my support for them stops is at their lack of action. All anyone is doing right now is voicing their disagreement over the whole thing and threatening action IF. The "if" that I have seen presented has already manifested itself. Why is there no action? I think a large part of it comes from no one caring about the Gremlins, Gremlins allies not allowing the attack, and no one caring about IRON.

Still, if you were against WotC and for Karma...you should be taking action right now, regardless of your precious political consequences.

[Delta1212]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='08 May 2010 - 06:37 PM' timestamp='1273358210' post='2291797']
Unconditional Surrender is the act of surrendering, unconditionally.
They are then given quarter, given terms, and they either comply or do not comply.

If they comply, restitution is served and the war is ended.
If they do not comply, hostilities resume (because I think you concede there is no other possibility?)
[/quote]
Ok, but that's not what I'm asking. I'm not asking what you think unconditional surrender is. I'm asking what they have to do in order to unconditionally surrender in your view.

[Sephiroth]

I'm surprised this is still ongoing. Good luck getting this mess sorted out.

[Zangmonkey]

[quote name='janax' date='08 May 2010 - 03:34 PM' timestamp='1273358076' post='2291793']
IRON and DAWN have both surrendered and admitted defeat to the parties they've wronged.

They should be under no obligation to stroke Ramirus's ego at this point.

Fix this and end it.
[/quote]

They admitted defeat; everybody knew they were defeated.
They then negotiated reps to be let go.

I am unsatisfied with that process because it releases them with no allocution and no admission of wrong doing (note, wrong-doing and LOSING are not synonymous)

Righteous parties lose all the time.

[Zangmonkey]

[quote name='Delta1212' date='08 May 2010 - 03:39 PM' timestamp='1273358328' post='2291799']
Ok, but that's not what I'm asking. I'm not asking what you think unconditional surrender is. I'm asking what they have to do in order to unconditionally surrender in your view.
[/quote]

They need to surrender without conditions; that is with no stipulations on their part of what the terms will be or how to proceed.

[Delta1212]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='08 May 2010 - 06:41 PM' timestamp='1273358478' post='2291802']
They need to surrender without conditions; that is with no stipulations on their part of what the terms will be or how to proceed.
[/quote]
You keep repeating the definition. I'm asking what they actually have to do. If simply saying "I surrender without stipulations" isn't a full unconditional surrender because it can be rescinded by refusing to accept terms, then what is it specifically that they have to do in order to surrender without stipulations successfully?

Edited May 8, 2010 by Delta1212

[Screwball]

[quote]Who says they are being told to demon their military improvements and wonders?
And, more importantly, why would they destroy their military wonders even if I told them to?

You say: "They would be forced to comply with your harsh terms!"
I say: "How could we possibly force them to comply with harsh terms?"
You say: "They wouldn't have a choice because they surrendered unconditionally"
I Say: "Surrendering unconditionally doesn't mean they have no choice but to accept harsh terms, even if we demanded harsh terms"
You say: "But they would be forced to comply with your harsh terms!"
[/quote]

The entire exercise is pointless if they don't, being that it doesn't weaken IRON's position (and thus demonstrates absolutely nothing at all). Given that decomming military improvements is a pretty standard surrender term, I don't see any reason to presume that you [I]wouldn't[/I] require it, given that your desire is clearly not white peace. Complying with that would gut IRON's ability to fight.

If your position is that 'unconditional surrender' is just IRON stopping fighting while you tell them what your terms are and that they're free to refuse them, the proper term is a ceasefire or armistice. We're all assuming that you want them to actually [I]surrender[/I] to you, not just stop fighting.

[quote]
Admin help me.
How on Earth could Gremlins ever force them to become a permanent tech farm?
Under the threat of continued war?
This thread persists on peoples assertion that IRON WOULD WIN A CONTINUED WAR[/quote]

IRON will win a continued war [I]as they are now[/I]. They wouldn't win a resumed war after gutting their own military capability.

[quote]Not to mention that if we actually made such a harsh term, I have said MANY TIMES that there is no dishonor in refusing slavery and that the entire cyberverse would have a moral obligation to intervene.[/quote]

That doesn't mean that they will intervene. Who's going to do so? Gramlin's friends? Unlikely. IRON's allies? No, they're all still recovering from the war, and such an intervention would likely invite a response from GRE's cronies. Uninvolved alliances? Why? They don't have a horse in the race, so they've got no reason to get involved and possibly get rolled. I rather suspect that, in the hypothetical situation of IRON becoming a Gramlin tech farm, everybody would say 'oh dear, how horrible' and then ignore the whole situation, bar IRON's allies who lack the capability to do anything about it.

[janax]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='08 May 2010 - 05:39 PM' timestamp='1273358380' post='2291801']
They admitted defeat; everybody knew they were defeated.
They then negotiated reps to be let go.

I am unsatisfied with that process because it releases them with no allocution and no admission of wrong doing (note, wrong-doing and LOSING are not synonymous)

Righteous parties lose all the time.
[/quote]

Thank you. I will be saving this quote for the future.

[Zangmonkey]

[quote name='Delta1212' date='08 May 2010 - 03:43 PM' timestamp='1273358612' post='2291806']
You keep repeating the definition. I'm asking what they actually have to do. If simply saying "I surrender without stipulations" isn't a full unconditional surrender because it can be rescinded by refusing to accept terms, then what is it specifically that they have to do in order to surrender without stipulations successfully?
[/quote]


Ah I see what you're asking. Sorry for the confusion.

To unconditionally surrender they need to do whatever process their alliance rules mandate for them to surrender and then they need to officially address our government and say something to the effect of "We unconditionally surrender" (The exact idiosyncracies of this process should be discussed with GRE.gov) and which point I suspect that Gremlins will accept their surrender and then tell them our required terms for peace.

So you're asking "What if they then refuse your terms?"
And I've told you that then a state of war resumes (because there is no other possible outcome) and their surrender is invalidated.

Meaning that if they want to begin the process again, they would (likely) need to unconditionally surrender again.

Edited May 8, 2010 by Matthew PK

[Screwball]

[quote]Ah I see what you're asking. Sorry for the confusion.

To unconditionally surrender they need to do whatever process their alliance rules mandate for them to surrender and then they need to officially address our government and say something to the effect of "We unconditionally surrender" (The exact idiosyncracies of this process should be discussed with GRE.gov) and which point I suspect that Gremlins will accept their surrender and then tell them our required terms for peace.

So you're asking "What if they then refuse your terms?"
And I've told you that then a state of war resumes (because there is no other possible outcome) and their surrender is invalidated.

Meaning that if they want to begin the process again, they would (likely) need to unconditionally surrender again.[/quote]

That isn't a surrender. That's them accepting your offer for an armstice while terms are discussed. If they surrendered to you, they'd have an obligation to submit to whatever terms you offered.

[Delta1212]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='08 May 2010 - 06:48 PM' timestamp='1273358897' post='2291813']
Ah I see what you're asking. Sorry for the confusion.

To unconditionally surrender they need to do whatever process their alliance rules mandate for them to surrender and then they need to officially address our government and say something to the effect of "We unconditionally surrender" (The exact idiosyncracies of this process should be discussed with GRE.gov) and which point I suspect that Gremlins will accept their surrender and then tell them our required terms for peace.

So you're asking "What if they then refuse your terms?"
And I've told you that then a state of war resumes (because there is no other possible outcome) and their surrender is invalidated.

Meaning that if they want to begin the process again, they would (likely) need to unconditionally surrender again.
[/quote]
Ok, but then saying "I unconditionally surrender" isn't a full unconditional surrender because it is invalidated by not doing something else. This means that other actions besides simply stating their surrender must be taken in order to successfully surrender. In light of that, I am asking you what else needs to be done for an unconditional surrender to actually take place.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Nizzle' date='08 May 2010 - 05:38 PM' timestamp='1273358279' post='2291798']
In an instant.

Also, I want to be clear about one thing: I fully support and agree with what VE, via Impero, is saying. The point my support for them stops is at their lack of action. All anyone is doing right now is voicing their disagreement over the whole thing and threatening action IF. The "if" that I have seen presented has already manifested itself. Why is there no action? I think a large part of it comes from no one caring about the Gremlins, Gremlins allies not allowing the attack, and no one caring about IRON.

Still, if you were against WotC and for Karma...you should be taking action right now, regardless of your precious political consequences.
[/quote]

to be honest, you don't need to be rebuilt to help the cause. i joined DAWN with a small WC and have fought one Gre nation. simply by joining and continuing to rebuild you are doing something far more than just voicing your opinion. this whole, "i need to be fully rebuilt and at X amount of NS or i will be useless" argument is bs. by joining you have done several things. 1) showed actual physical support to IRON/DAWN 2) put your nation on the line for what you believe in 3) showed the way for others to hopefully step up and finally do the same 4) actually have a leg to stand on when you demand others do the same

i am ready and willing to fight more Gremlins at this time and by my doing so, hopefully allow other IRON/DAWN nations the chance to rebuild. that to me is worth more than a bunch of words ever will be.

[Zangmonkey]

[quote name='Screwball' date='08 May 2010 - 03:47 PM' timestamp='1273358834' post='2291811']
The entire exercise is pointless if they don't, being that it doesn't weaken IRON's position (and thus demonstrates absolutely nothing at all). Given that decomming military improvements is a pretty standard surrender term, I don't see any reason to presume that you [I]wouldn't[/I] require it, given that your desire is clearly not white peace. Complying with that would gut IRON's ability to fight.

If your position is that 'unconditional surrender' is just IRON stopping fighting while you tell them what your terms are and that they're free to refuse them, the proper term is a ceasefire or armistice. We're all assuming that you want them to actually [I]surrender[/I] to you, not just stop fighting.[/quote]

No, a surrender implies a submission and intent to follow through with peace terms (if there are any) while a cease fire or armistice implies the intent to negotiate. We do not intend to negotiate.



[quote]IRON will win a continued war [I]as they are now[/I]. They wouldn't win a resumed war after gutting their own military capability.[/quote]
You are welcome to go back a few pages and refute my math where I outlined that even if IRON decomissioned all their nukes they're rebuild rate is sufficient to make the probability that every Gremlin will be nuked every day greater than 90%.
Other than nukes and navy, armies can be retrained instantly.
Regarding the premise that they'd have negative improvements: IRON/DAWN have claimed here that Gremlins is not hurting them; thus you could presume that their rebuilding efforts to correct negative improvement issues have been successful over the last month.



[quote][That doesn't mean that they will intervene. Who's going to do so? Gramlin's friends? Unlikely[/quote]
I give my friends more credit than you do. If Gremlins demanded that IRON become a permanent tech farm then I would expect all of my friends to intervene against me. This is because I believe that my friends are dominantly moral individuals.
[quote]IRON's allies? No, they're all still recovering from the war, and such an intervention would likely invite a response from GRE's cronies. [/quote]
GRE has cronies now? I don't suspect that anybody wanting to be released from terms to engage Gremlins after we made such an outrageous demand would meet any opposition.

[quote]Uninvolved alliances? Why? They don't have a horse in the race, so they've got no reason to get involved and possibly get rolled. [/quote]
"uninvolved" alliances have a moral obligation to oppose outrageous terms such as "become a permanent tech farm". If they do not, then they are cowards.
[quote]I rather suspect that, in the hypothetical situation of IRON becoming a Gramlin tech farm, everybody would say 'oh dear, how horrible' and then ignore the whole situation, bar IRON's allies who lack the capability to do anything about it.
[/quote]
Does it hurt to have such a low faith in humanity?
I, on the other hand, expect that if such an outrageous term were demanded that [b]everybody with self-worth[/b] would stand up and be counted against us.

[Crymson]

I have an item hidden behind my back. I demand that you pay me $100 for it before I will tell you what it is.

[Zangmonkey]

[quote name='Delta1212' date='08 May 2010 - 03:51 PM' timestamp='1273359076' post='2291816']
Ok, but then saying "I unconditionally surrender" isn't a full unconditional surrender because it is invalidated by not doing something else. This means that other actions besides simply stating their surrender must be taken in order to successfully surrender. In light of that, I am asking you what else needs to be done for an unconditional surrender to actually take place.
[/quote]


No, because the surrender is the first cause of action in ending the war. The final cause of action is restitution.

In a nutshell:
War > Surrender > Terms > Restitution (Compliance) > Peace.

If, at any point, they decide to return to the state of war, the process begins anew.

Surrender is merely the first step, and "unconditional" means that, at that phase, they do not stipulate and conditions on the subsequent phrases.

Contrast that with a conditional surrender such as "We surrender under the condition that our restitution not contain X"
We're not negotiating here; I am not interested in allowing them to delineate conditions.

Edited May 8, 2010 by Matthew PK

[Nizzle]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' date='08 May 2010 - 04:53 PM' timestamp='1273359193' post='2291819']
to be honest, you don't need to be rebuilt to help the cause. i joined DAWN with a small WC and have fought one Gre nation. simply by joining and continuing to rebuild you are doing something far more than just voicing your opinion. this whole, "i need to be fully rebuilt and at X amount of NS or i will be useless" argument is bs. by joining you have done several things. 1) showed actual physical support to IRON/DAWN 2) put your nation on the line for what you believe in 3) showed the way for others to hopefully step up and finally do the same 4) actually have a leg to stand on when you demand others do the same

i am ready and willing to fight more Gremlins at this time and by my doing so, hopefully allow other IRON/DAWN nations the chance to rebuild. that to me is worth more than a bunch of words ever will be.
[/quote]

Well said. I merely feel that by having my WC up there I can extend the amount of time other nations can rebuild.

[Zangmonkey]

[quote name='Crymson' date='08 May 2010 - 04:01 PM' timestamp='1273359690' post='2291823']
I have an item hidden behind my back. I demand that you pay me $100 for it before I will tell you what it is.
[/quote]

I pass, you are evil and should be rolled.

Can you spot the logical jump?

[Nizzle]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='08 May 2010 - 05:03 PM' timestamp='1273359812' post='2291827']
I pass, you are evil and should be rolled.

Can you spot the logical jump?
[/quote]

No, I'm pretty sure that's an alternative description of the events you wish to see happen with IRON.

[Delta1212]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='08 May 2010 - 07:02 PM' timestamp='1273359748' post='2291824']
No, because the surrender is the first cause of action in ending the war. The final cause of action is restitution.

War > Surrender > Terms > Restitution (Compliance) > Peace.

If, at any point, they decide to return to the state of war, the process begins anew.

Surrender is merely the first step, and "unconditional" means that, at that phase, they do not stipulate and conditions on the subsequent phrases.

Contrast that with a conditional surrender such as "We surrender under the condition that our restitution not contain X"
We're not negotiating here; I am not interested in allowing them to delineate conditions.
[/quote]
So you are defining surrender as "agreeing to hear the terms"?

[Zangmonkey]

[quote name='Delta1212' date='08 May 2010 - 04:07 PM' timestamp='1273360050' post='2291835']
So you are defining surrender as "agreeing to hear the terms"?
[/quote]

Surrender is a required process before we will deliver our terms.

[Nizzle]

They don't know what they are defining, what they are asking, or what they want to see. All they know is that they love the fact they can have no treaties, pull a stunt like this, get everyone riled up and not have anyone touch them.

[Zangmonkey]

[quote name='Nizzle' date='08 May 2010 - 04:07 PM' timestamp='1273360011' post='2291832']
No, I'm pretty sure that's an alternative description of the events you wish to see happen with IRON.
[/quote]
Except they haven't been asked to pay anything; just surrender.