Question

[Zoot Zoot]

Dude, the rules DO exist.
christ, they are actually written down
listed
marked
stickied
http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=76516

here is a goddamn link.

[SpacingOutMan]

[quote name='BaronUberstein' date='02 March 2010 - 01:20 PM' timestamp='1267554210' post='2211494']
As someone who has fought several wars in CNRP and never been one of the big strength players, I can assure everyone the rules don't favor the stronger nations. The community tends to support them when they want to do something, but the rules themselves are far from being the issue.
[/quote]

The main issue is apathy and lack of activity. That and there are varying RP styles which don't keep things in check, but that is to no fault of anyone.

[Voodoo Nova]

[quote name='Zoot Zoot' date='02 March 2010 - 02:18 PM' timestamp='1267557734' post='2211538']
Dude, the rules DO exist.
christ, they are actually written down
listed
marked
stickied
[url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=76516"]http://forums.cybern...showtopic=76516[/url]

here is a goddamn link.
[/quote]

Zoot, they're not rules. They're generally accepted guidelines to how our world works.


@Anti-Sat stuff: They are usable because even the Chinese can take down satellites in real life.


@Canaris: If you have any questions about CNRP, feel free to ask. There are many people willing to help you along to understand what's what.

[Executive Minister]

[quote name='Canaris' date='02 March 2010 - 12:27 PM' timestamp='1267551031' post='2211457']
[b]And not a single mention of ASAT missiles or ABMs.[/b] Not even anything about SDIs. I'm going to be frank: this stuff should be in writing. Otherwise it's arbitrary and no one is on the same page.
[/quote]


[quote name='Zoot Zoot' date='02 March 2010 - 02:18 PM' timestamp='1267557734' post='2211538']
Dude, the rules DO exist.
christ, they are actually written down
listed
marked
stickied
[url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=76516"]http://forums.cybern...showtopic=76516[/url]

here is a goddamn link.
[/quote]

Zoot, If you had paid attention to the person you're trying to chew out, you'd realize that he already had the link that you so graciously provided to him. He can find the CNRP guidelines perfectly fine, its only that they omit many of the unwritten rules CNRP has.

[Canaris]

[quote name='Zoot Zoot' date='02 March 2010 - 02:18 PM' timestamp='1267557734' post='2211538']
Dude, the rules DO exist.
christ, they are actually written down
listed
marked
stickied
http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=76516

here is a goddamn link.
[/quote]

And yet so many are missing! Where is the rule listed that you can only have ABMs if you have an SDI in-game? Where are the rules about ASAT missiles?

[Voodoo Nova]

[quote name='Canaris' date='02 March 2010 - 02:29 PM' timestamp='1267558358' post='2211551']
And yet so many are missing! Where is the rule listed that you can only have ABMs if you have an SDI in-game? Where are the rules about ASAT missiles?
[/quote]

Not everything can be spelled out. Generally, people have missile defense systems and Anti-Sat missiles after some R&D, depending on your nation's tech level.

[SpacingOutMan]

[quote name='Canaris' date='02 March 2010 - 02:29 PM' timestamp='1267558358' post='2211551']
And yet so many are missing! Where is the rule listed that you can only have ABMs if you have an SDI in-game? Where are the rules about ASAT missiles?
[/quote]

It's a policy that has been formed verbally, though within precedence and context. If you want a SDI in the RP, you need a SDI in game. This has been an accepted system for a very long time now (even before my entry into the community). It's an unwritten law, much like it's not nice to glare at people. Things like that. Arbitrary? Yes. Abstract? Yes. Ambiguous? Yes. Welcome to the world of communication and interpretation; all symbols and verbal statements contain those three aspects (the three A's) of symbolism and communication.

[Executive Minister]

[quote name='SpacingOutMan' date='02 March 2010 - 02:34 PM' timestamp='1267558655' post='2211557']
It's a policy that has been formed verbally, though within precedence and context. If you want a SDI in the RP, you need a SDI in game. This has been an accepted system for a very long time now (even before my entry into the community). It's an unwritten law, much like it's not nice to glare at people. Things like that. Arbitrary? Yes. Abstract? Yes. Ambiguous? Yes. Welcome to the world of communication and interpretation; all symbols and verbal statements contain those three aspects (the three A's) of symbolism and communication.
[/quote]

So you're saying newcomers should just intuitively know that IG wonders reflect IC capabilities? EDIT: Sorta. Just the important ones?

Edited March 2, 2010 by Executive Minister

[Canaris]

[quote name='Voodoo Nova' date='02 March 2010 - 02:32 PM' timestamp='1267558552' post='2211556']
Not everything can be spelled out. Generally, people have missile defense systems and Anti-Sat missiles after some R&D, depending on your nation's tech level.
[/quote]

Of course, I agree. But it wouldn't hurt to keep a record of issues as they arise. Perhaps a CNRP guidelines FAQ?

[quote name='SpacingOutMan' date='02 March 2010 - 02:34 PM' timestamp='1267558655' post='2211557']
It's a policy that has been formed verbally, though within precedence and context. If you want a SDI in the RP, you need a SDI in game. This has been an accepted system for a very long time now (even before my entry into the community). It's an unwritten law, much like it's not nice to glare at people. Things like that. Arbitrary? Yes. Abstract? Yes. Ambiguous? Yes. Welcome to the world of communication and interpretation; all symbols and verbal statements contain those three aspects (the three A's) of symbolism and communication.
[/quote]

Rules are neither symbols nor a method of communication, they are a treatise to be accepted upon joining a community. How can I accept these rules if I don't know what they are? Or am I expected to ask every other post to be sure? That sounds horrifically inefficient.

[Silhouette]

Welcome to bureaucracy.

[Canaris]

[quote name='Silhouette' date='02 March 2010 - 02:46 PM' timestamp='1267559418' post='2211576']
Welcome to bureaucracy.
[/quote]

Even the worst bureaucracies do a better job informing the people that make them possible.

EDIT: Stupid typo.

Edited March 2, 2010 by Canaris

[SpacingOutMan]

[quote name='Executive Minister' date='02 March 2010 - 02:38 PM' timestamp='1267558926' post='2211564']
So you're saying newcomers should just intuitively know that IG wonders reflect IC capabilities? EDIT: Sorta. Just the important ones?
[/quote]

No, I never said it was perfect. I'm just saying how it currently is.

[quote name='Canaris' date='02 March 2010 - 02:45 PM' timestamp='1267559322' post='2211573']
Rules are neither symbols nor a method of communication, they are a treatise to be accepted upon joining a community. How can I accept these rules if I don't know what they are? Or am I expected to ask every other post to be sure? That sounds horrifically inefficient.
[/quote]

They are both symbols and a method of direct communication. A treatise, or rather the point, is to assert a point, hence the aspect of symbolic communication because to assert something is to value it as being vital and important. And as I wrote above to EM, I never said it was perfect; I was merely speaking on the current state of [i]what is[/i]... trust me, I have a myriad of suggestions I would love to see implemented, the [i]guidelines[/i] being one of the biggest of the few.

[Voodoo Nova]

[quote name='Canaris' date='02 March 2010 - 02:45 PM' timestamp='1267559322' post='2211573']
Of course, I agree. But it wouldn't hurt to keep a record of issues as they arise. Perhaps a CNRP guidelines FAQ?

[/quote]

Our basic guidelines are in the Map thread. It talks about tech, military and other important information to start RPing here. If you want to know about the various precedents regarding things such as defense against a nuclear arm, feel free to ask about them.

[Canaris]

[quote name='SpacingOutMan' date='02 March 2010 - 02:50 PM' timestamp='1267559631' post='2211580']They are both symbols and a method of direct communication. A treatise, or rather the point, is to assert a point, hence the aspect of symbolic communication because to assert something is to value it as being vital and important. And as I wrote above to EM, I never said it was perfect; I was merely speaking on the current state of [i]what is[/i]... trust me, I have a myriad of suggestions I would love to see implemented, the [i]guidelines[/i] being one of the biggest of the few.
[/quote]

A rule is meant to be forceful and tangible, and a symbo- you know what? Nevermind. It never helps anyone to argue semantics. The fact is that you're supposed to know what you're jumping into, otherwise you might be rudely surprised (my time on RP forums has prepared me for this kind of thing, though). If that something is so vital and important than it needs to be visible to all those who it affects. Do we agree in that capacity?

[quote name='Voodoo Nova' date='02 March 2010 - 02:51 PM' timestamp='1267559720' post='2211584']
Our basic guidelines are in the Map thread. It talks about tech, military and other important information to start RPing here. If you want to know about the various precedents regarding things such as defense against a nuclear arm, feel free to ask about them.
[/quote]

It would make life much easier for everyone if the rules didn't look like such a big secret. Why would you oppose elaborating on them? It would make life easier.

[SpacingOutMan]

[quote name='Canaris' date='02 March 2010 - 02:58 PM' timestamp='1267560146' post='2211589']
A rule is meant to be forceful and tangible, and a symbo- you know what? Nevermind. It never helps anyone to argue semantics. The fact is that you're supposed to know what you're jumping into, otherwise you might be rudely surprised (my time on RP forums has prepared me for this kind of thing, though). If that something is so vital and important than it needs to be visible to all those who it affects. Do we agree in that capacity?
[/quote]

In your time RPing in CNRP, you will come to know my personality; it's not abrasive, but I do rather like to argue philosophy and communication theory. That's just how I am, so don't take it as me just trying to be a jerk to the new-comer.

And I do agree in that capacity, though I do not agree that every single thing needs to be spelled out. If every thing were to be spelled out, then the style of RP would have to be limited, meaning that we would see a static formatting for how we roleplay. Other than that, however, in terms of the technical relationships between in-game and in-roleplay, they do need to be spelled out.

[Voodoo Nova]

[quote name='Canaris' date='02 March 2010 - 02:58 PM' timestamp='1267560146' post='2211589']
A rule is meant to be forceful and tangible, and a symbo- you know what? Nevermind. It never helps anyone to argue semantics. The fact is that you're supposed to know what you're jumping into, otherwise you might be rudely surprised (my time on RP forums has prepared me for this kind of thing, though). If that something is so vital and important than it needs to be visible to all those who it affects. Do we agree in that capacity?



It would make life much easier for everyone if the rules didn't look like such a big secret. Why would you oppose elaborating on them? It would make life easier.
[/quote]

RP is about creativity. We did try having elaborate guidelines a long time ago, but they did not last much longer than a few days. This RP runs mainly on precedent, aka unwritten guidelines that we follow. Precedents do change with time, which allows RP and this world to stay creative and to stay an evolving world.

[Canaris]

[quote name='Voodoo Nova' date='02 March 2010 - 03:08 PM' timestamp='1267560741' post='2211601']
RP is about creativity. We did try having elaborate guidelines a long time ago, but they did not last much longer than a few days. This RP runs mainly on precedent, aka unwritten guidelines that we follow. Precedents do change with time, which allows RP and this world to stay creative and to stay an evolving world.
[/quote]

RP isn't about creativity, to be honest. It's about imagination, an item necessary to creativity but also exclusive of it. In fact, the idea of roleplaying itself limits creativity to some degree: the idea is that you transpose yourself into a situation you cannot otherwise enjoy. Whether that is simply another circumstance or another world entirely doesn't matter - you're still bound by the constraints of the situation (creativity merely keeps the imagination alive). Here in CNRP, the group creates the reality, a reality which needs rules to function - so that it's constituent members don't create something less than ideal. You mistake my interpretation of the concept of rules as: 1. You cannot do this; 2. You cannot do that; 3. Don't even think about it about asking. It's fine to have unwritten rules but it tends to create an uncertain (and potentially even hostile) atmosphere for newcomers. Unless you don't want new blood around, which I could understand to some degree, even if I think it's vital to the machine.

[Voodoo Nova]

[quote name='Canaris' date='02 March 2010 - 03:24 PM' timestamp='1267561654' post='2211610']
RP isn't about creativity, to be honest. It's about imagination, an item necessary to creativity but also exclusive of it. In fact, the idea of roleplaying itself limits creativity to some degree: the idea is that you transpose yourself into a situation you cannot otherwise enjoy. Whether that is simply another circumstance or another world entirely doesn't matter - you're still bound by the constraints of the situation (creativity merely keeps the imagination alive). Here in CNRP, the group creates the reality, a reality which needs rules to function - so that it's constituent members don't create something less than ideal. You mistake my interpretation of the concept of rules as: 1. You cannot do this; 2. You cannot do that; 3. Don't even think about it about asking. It's fine to have unwritten rules but it tends to create an uncertain (and potentially even hostile) atmosphere for newcomers. Unless you don't want new blood around, which I could understand to some degree, even if I think it's vital to the machine.
[/quote]

Having a good imagination makes you creative. Newcomers come here all the time and quite a few stay (Zoot, Fizzy are the most recent) after they learn the bits and pieces. They enjoy themselves, even though they have had rough starts. Our community is the way it is because that is how we all enjoy it. It's a great compromise between all of our styles. New blood is fine, no one disagrees. Just don't come in here and tell us everything we do is wrong because it isn't what you're use to.

[Canaris]

Strange, I haven't said anything anyone does here is wrong. Anyway, several other people agree with me that there is room for improvement, so obviously there isn't a consensus on the issue (there is ALWAYS room for improvement in ANYTHING). The system works, I'm sure, but it could be better as a matter of course. Part of encouraging new blood is getting to know new vantage points. That's what roleplay itself is about; new horizons. It's evolution, like you, yourself, said. Adaptation and progress.

[Fizzydog]

and quite a few stay (Zoot, Fizzy are the most recent)



I am most likely here to stay. If I get my Trade Circle up and running I'll be here till I'm old and gray.
[quote]
RP isn't about creativity, to be honest. It's about imagination[/quote]

I disagree. Imagination is not the main property, nor is creativity. There is also the efforts to create and run a stable alternate universe. I may not like that I only have around 200,000 to 300,000 people, but if people just decided to have their own numbers, then everything would fall apart. (68.8 billion people would be around the population of me if it was up to me, my imagination runs wild.)

Which brings us back. If you do not have nukes IG, then you can't have nukes. That way, tiny baby nations cannot hold bio weapons, let alone nukes. Making a limit keeps from the RP overflowing with destruction and disaster. If there wasn't a cap, there would be nothing.

If a nation were to be first world and own 20 nukes, they could start a project with bio weapons. If a third world nation tried that, it would be a big no no. And you can see why.

And at least tiny nations will catche up. It may not be for years, but they will soon be at just the same tech level.



But we do have a problem. What if, by chance, every square mile were owned by nations, and we continued to grow. Nations would invade smaller nations, and smaller nations would be crushed. Eventually, to keep their nation looking spiff and might, there would not be many nations left. So I have a question. Can people in CNRP create private plots of land that are destroyed if they leave the CNRP?

[Canaris]

I'm not contesting the rules, I'm contesting their presentation. Otherwise, I agree with you 100%. Another problem arises when people decide it's fine to pick and choose which rules to follow because they're not immediately obvious. Consider: would knowing the rules before hand have changed your decision to become involved? For better or for worse?

Being new here I can't quite answer that question, but I'm pretty sure it would have changed my outlook.

[Voodoo Nova]

[quote name='Canaris' date='02 March 2010 - 03:59 PM' timestamp='1267563761' post='2211640']
I'm not contesting the rules, I'm contesting their presentation. Otherwise, I agree with you 100%. Another problem arises when people decide it's fine to pick and choose which rules to follow because they're not immediately obvious. Consider: would knowing the rules before hand have changed your decision to become involved? For better or for worse?

Being new here I can't quite answer that question, but I'm pretty sure it would have changed my outlook.
[/quote]

I read the rules and asked questions before I actually got involved. If I didn't like it, I wouldn't have gotten involved, plain and simple. Heck, no one says you have to RP in CNRP either. You can make your own community with your own rules here as well.

[Subtleknifewielder]

[quote name='Centurius' date='02 March 2010 - 05:39 AM' timestamp='1267537360' post='2211246']
Seeing as there is no way ig to destroy satellites we turned those down.
[/quote]
[quote name='Centurius' date='02 March 2010 - 07:42 AM' timestamp='1267544768' post='2211328']
Looking at precedents until pre-approved by the other warring party I am.
[/quote]
No. A-Sat weaponry has been used before, and there has been no ruling against it, ever.

[quote name='Canaris' date='02 March 2010 - 11:29 AM' timestamp='1267558358' post='2211551']
And yet so many are missing! Where is the rule listed that you can only have ABMs if you have an SDI in-game? Where are the rules about ASAT missiles?
[/quote]
No rules about A-SAT missiles exist.

However, there have been multiple threads about how IG wonders translate into CNRP. There was a sizeable thread, iirc, when the concept of the Moon Base and Mars Base wonders was introduced, before they were actually implimented in the game. I agree, they should be in the Map thread, but it has been established policy for some time.

[quote name='Canaris' date='02 March 2010 - 11:45 AM' timestamp='1267559322' post='2211573']
Of course, I agree. But it wouldn't hurt to keep a record of issues as they arise. Perhaps a CNRP guidelines FAQ?
[/quote]
Actually, there is a FAQ's thread right here int his forum, established by a mod. He was, I believe, an RP mod when he made it.

[quote name='Fizzydog' date='02 March 2010 - 12:52 PM' timestamp='1267563338' post='2211632']
But we do have a problem. What if, by chance, every square mile were owned by nations, and we continued to grow. Nations would invade smaller nations, and smaller nations would be crushed. Eventually, to keep their nation looking spiff and might, there would not be many nations left. So I have a question. Can people in CNRP create private plots of land that are destroyed if they leave the CNRP?
[/quote]
That's actually been done at one point...a player that was particularly high in strength and tech based his entire nation on a sizeable artificial island in the middle of the pacific. His name was Shan Revan.

[quote name='Voodoo Nova' date='02 March 2010 - 01:14 PM' timestamp='1267564697' post='2211659']
I read the rules and asked questions before I actually got involved. If I didn't like it, I wouldn't have gotten involved, plain and simple. Heck, no one says you have to RP in CNRP either. [b]You can make your own community with your own rules here as well.[/b]
[/quote]
Something that has been done several times, actually.

[Voodoo Nova]

[quote name='Subtleknifewielder' date='02 March 2010 - 04:38 PM' timestamp='1267566133' post='2211685']


Something that has been done several times, actually.
[/quote]

I encourage people to do that because eventually one will stick.

[Subtleknifewielder]

[quote name='Voodoo Nova' date='02 March 2010 - 02:12 PM' timestamp='1267568173' post='2211748']
I encourage people to do that because eventually one will stick. [img]http://forums.cybernations.net/public/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif[/img]
[/quote]
Yes...let's hope the next one works...