The Disregard for Europe

[Co God Ben]

OK.


I have over 100 messages in my inbox right now. You messaged me, I glanced at it and forgot about it (because I had a few more pressing issues at hand). Mah bad. When you sent me a second message, I posted in our government forums, detailing teh situation. We decided that we would send him a message and give him a day or two to give peace or get kicked. And no, I didn't tell you about that. Mah bad. Now we're here.

Anyways, if you want to know where we stand on this, try coming into our irc chan (#loss on coldfront.net) and talk to me there, or Phoebus or Legion-X. Don't send me a message ingame, because you'll be lucky for me to read the whole thing; I didn't even have the attention span to finish the OP.

Edited February 11, 2010 by Co God Ben

[Sam Winters]

In before orders! O/ Ben

[Arkarian]

[quote name='La Hire' date='10 February 2010 - 09:03 PM' timestamp='1265861023' post='2173861']
Because we had not received any reply from your alliance whatsoever, not even a link to your forums or your IRC channel.

I will however state, that LoSS has now began to acknowledge our messages and have been engaged in dialogue with us on IRC, however little progress was made beyond acknowledging the problem at hand. I am hopeful that a solution will be reached very shortly, as we have waited long enough. The ability to resolve this is in the hands of LoSS, not myself or my alliance... we have made every effort to contact you guys and finally had to resort to the OWF.

A member of your alliance, was unprovoked and attacked our alliance... we are seeking a diplomatic and peaceful end to this dispute and yet you chose to ignore us.
[/quote]

I spoke with the member of your allaince under attack recently, so dont get a attitude here. As that LoSS members is under my direct commander, ive classified him as a Ghost, you may do with him what you will. I have also offered your guy personal reparations, those will have to be on hold for a little bit but, i consider this issue closed myself

Arkarian
Company 3 Commander
LoSS Senate

Edited February 11, 2010 by Arkarian

[roozbeh]

Hi guy...

I really apreciate your efforts to sort this problem out...but the problem is not sorted yet...I read all of your comments and they all make sense no matter if you talked for us or against us but the reality is that someone has abused the current situation in the world and started a tech raid and it must be answered first politically and not resolved then through other ways.

We didn't take any action against him just because of the sake of justice...some of my alliance's members wanted to attack him back but Lahire and I stopped them just to show our respect to Authorities in this issue. If you guys reckon he should be attacked back just confirm it and we will do the rest but we prefer to play peacefully with all of other respected alliances...

Our mate in our alliance is expecting us to take some action against that itruder but we bit the bullet and waited for your judjement all last week when our mate was getting attacked everyday...Didn't we act respectfully?

Please give us last word to end this tech raiding act ASAP...We don't want to see him getting attacked everyday anymore guys...I appreciate you responsible feedbacks on this.

[Sigrun Vapneir]

If he is classified as a ghost that means they wont defend him. "You may do with him what you will."

So it seems that although there were some communication difficulties at first, you have been promised reparations and the offender is in your hands. A satisfactory resolution no?

I know some people were offended about it being posted here instead of through private channels, but frankly I am glad to see it settled here. Not to say if the rogue came from my own alliance I wouldnt have preferred to hear about it in private myself but still transparency isnt always a bad thing, and it is good to see how LoSS handled the situation, my esteem for them has only increased as a result.

[La Hire]

[quote name='Arkarian' date='11 February 2010 - 05:05 AM' timestamp='1265879141' post='2174368']
ive classified him as a Ghost, you may do with him what you will. I have also offered your guy personal reparations, those will have to be on hold for a little bit but, i consider this issue closed myself
[/quote]

Thank you, this is all that we have been waiting for the last few days... we ourselves are ready to declare this issue closed, and would like to put it behind us as well. We will likely contact you again on IRC on the matter of reparations, however.

[Schattenmann]

I'm pretty disappointed in the way LoSS is handling themselves. You are in the wrong; sorry if it's embarrassing for you for this to hit WA, but that doesn't give you leave to talk down to the people you have wronged like children. Stop making excuses, and make it right.

Edited February 11, 2010 by Schattenmann

[LordSlade]

[quote name='Schattenmann' date='11 February 2010 - 11:30 AM' timestamp='1265909406' post='2175025']
I'm pretty disappointed in the way LoSS is handling themselves. You are in the wrong; sorry if it's embarrassing for you for this to hit WA, but that doesn't give you leave to talk down to the people you have wronged like children. Stop making excuses, and make it right.
[/quote]

Schatt, read what Ark said, I'm pretty sure that is making it right. You know, the whole he's a ghost do what you want to him and still get reps from us. Yeah, sounds like making it right to me. Now, go back to your hole and wait for me there while I get the whips!!!! See you soon!

[quote name='Arkarian' date='11 February 2010 - 03:05 AM' timestamp='1265879141' post='2174368']
I spoke with the member of your allaince under attack recently, so dont get a attitude here. As that LoSS members is under my direct commander, ive classified him as a Ghost, you may do with him what you will. I have also offered your guy personal reparations, those will have to be on hold for a little bit but, i consider this issue closed myself

Arkarian
Company 3 Commander
LoSS Senate
[/quote]

[Locke]

[quote name='Sam Winters' date='11 February 2010 - 12:03 AM' timestamp='1265864622' post='2173957']
Ah, another Locke living up to the name.
[/quote]
Ah, cryptic statements that mean absolutely nothing for the win!

[LordSlade]

[quote name='Locke' date='11 February 2010 - 01:48 PM' timestamp='1265917683' post='2175323']
Ah, cryptic statements that mean absolutely nothing for the win!
[/quote]

Your name is famous...infamous(however you want to look at it) within LOSS. Not because of you, but because of some other nutjob that wore the name once. Sam just happens to be friends with the other Locke.

But I like you MUUUUCH better than the other person.

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='LordSlade' date='11 February 2010 - 01:35 PM' timestamp='1265913336' post='2175194']
Schatt, read what Ark said, I'm pretty sure that is making it right. You know, the whole he's a ghost do what you want to him and still get reps from us. Yeah, sounds like making it right to me. Now, go back to your hole and wait for me there while I get the whips!!!! See you soon!
[/quote]
Like I said, LoSS's response is shameful. Though it came at EU's expense, I for one am glad this all occured; it's certainly given me insight into the alliance I've been supporting militarily for the past few months, and will better inform my decisions over the next few months.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Schattenmann' date='11 February 2010 - 09:03 PM' timestamp='1265943807' post='2176196']
Like I said, LoSS's response is shameful. Though it came at EU's expense, I for one am glad this all occured; it's certainly given me insight into the alliance I've been supporting militarily for the past few months, and will better inform my decisions over the next few months.
[/quote]

yes, let's entirely forget the fact that Lahire came to the WA after only contacting 2 people within LoSS, never attempting to find their IRC or forum link, never attempting to contact anyone else in gov or going through any other channels that are readily available at all. no, lets not forget that he called LoSS out publicly for something like this despite the fact that LoSS is involved in a major war (on multiple fronts i believe but i honestly cant remember who is attacking whom except for a few alliances anymore) and have most likely been dealing with that far more so than any other issue.

yeah, whats shameful is the OP to begin with. had he attempted to contact Arkarian or any other LoSS gov, this could have been dealt with rather quickly (especially if he had gone on their IRC versus just in-game messages that will be quickly drowned out in a major war as the one going on. but hey, you seem to be going off the deep end, might as well keep it going Schatt.

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' date='11 February 2010 - 10:32 PM' timestamp='1265945520' post='2176278']
yes, let's entirely forget the fact that Lahire came to the WA after only contacting 2 people within LoSS, never attempting to find their IRC or forum link, never attempting to contact anyone else in gov or going through any other channels that are readily available at all. no, lets not forget that he called LoSS out publicly for something like this despite the fact that LoSS is involved in a major war (on multiple fronts i believe but i honestly cant remember who is attacking whom except for a few alliances anymore) and have most likely been dealing with that far more so than any other issue.

yeah, whats shameful is the OP to begin with. had he attempted to contact Arkarian or any other LoSS gov, this could have been dealt with rather quickly (especially if he had gone on their IRC versus just in-game messages that will be quickly drowned out in a major war as the one going on. but hey, you seem to be going off the deep end, might as well keep it going Schatt.
[/quote]
Let's get this clear because these little things always turn into a popularity contest real quick, but I hate [i]evvvvery[/i]body so I cut right to the heart of things: LoSS attacked EU. Rogue, confused, ghost, giggles, whatever it was, LoSS's guy attacked EU. The responsibility for solving this, then, lies squarly on LoSS. Everything after that is static.

You're got froth all over your bloodred face screaming how crazy I am, and in your pissfit you stated that EU should have contacted "anyone else in gov"--If you've already contacted the triumvir, who the hell else do you suggest he contact, Doch? Admin? Push that pulsing vein on your forehead back down, and have a cold one before you get all rage-dumb with me again.

I said LoSS handled this bad, and they did. They were sloppy and dismissive and when somebody doesn't get an answer guess where they go? You got it: right here. As I said, I'm real sorry if LoSS got upset that this turned public; but look at the bright side: Next time they get a message saying "hey, your duder is attacking us" instead of "forgetting to reply" and "giving it a few days" they'll do what you're supposed to do when one of your members goes off the reserve: Something about it. Every day they waited to get serious with the rogue is another round of ground, air, and missile attacks on the victim nation. That's not acceptable. To top it all off, while they couldn't be arsed to handle it, half the LoSS gov had plenty of time to each write their own edition of [u]Interalliance Diplomacy: How to Eat !@#$ Because You're Small[/u] in this thread. Oh, yeah, they got real concerned when the incident came to light. No wonder they all included a section on "Private Channels: the establishment's best friend" because if EU had stuck to the guide, then LoSS could keep ignoring them while hee-hawing status quo jockeys like you snicker at the runaround logs.

And this whole "they're in a big war" crap is a joke. If [i]any[/i] alliance can't keep it together in war, then they've got no business being in war.

Hear this: When you mess up, you man up. LoSS messed up, and instead of manning up, they showed their smart @#$%. It's not EU that made LoSS look bad, it's [i]LoSS[/i] that made LoSS look bad. Even Arkarian's concession is back-handed and arrogant, and if I were EU I'd tell him to cram his personal reps into whatever hole all that smarm was coming out of. When someone in your alliance attacks someone else, you stop the war if you can, you send the amount you owe, and you mail an apology letter.

Now, Dochartaigh, you think I'm off the deep end? My shallow end is two feet over your head you can't fathom deep in Schloss Eggenberg. My sword is my pen and the force that swings it is the indisputable truth and it cleaves in all directions and is dreadful upon all it strikes. If you thought popping in here with "private channels ftw" was going to have all the steam it used to, then you better brush up on things, because a lot of people gave a lot to change that.

I said it plain and simple in ho-hum words: It disappointed me. What's more, it surprised me, I had a better impression of LoSS than they've given today. I like LoSS, and I expect to continue liking LoSS, but I don't like what I see and I won't be shut up about it.

Edited February 12, 2010 by Schattenmann

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Schattenmann' date='11 February 2010 - 10:02 PM' timestamp='1265947378' post='2176433']
Let's get this clear because these little things always turn into a popularity contest real quick, but I hate [i]evvvvery[/i]body so I cut right to the heart of things: LoSS attacked EU. Rogue, confused, ghost, giggles, whatever it was, LoSS's guy attacked EU. The responsibility for solving this, then, lies squarly on LoSS. Everything after that is static.[/quote]

heh. if anyone who knows me knows that i don't do popularity. i have called out allies for messing up before and have called out my own alliance for the same. so do not think that i would have hesitated to call out LoSS if i felt that they handled this badly.

[quote]You're got froth all over your bloodred face screaming how crazy I am, and in your pissfit you stated that EU should have contacted "anyone else in gov"--If you've already contacted the triumvir, who the hell else do you suggest he contact, Doch? Admin? Push that pulsing vein on your forehead back down, and have a cold one before you get all rage-dumb with me again.[/quote]

yes because i am nerdraging instead of just calling you out. because frankly, you are not worth a nerdrage anymore. never really were actually. you were amusing at one point, now you are just downright lost.

[quote]I said LoSS handled this bad, and they did. They were sloppy and dismissive and when somebody doesn't get an answer guess where they go? You got it: right here. As I said, I'm real sorry if LoSS got upset that this turned public; but look at the bright side: Next time they get a message saying "hey, your duder is attacking us" instead of "forgetting to reply" and "giving it a few days" they'll do what you're supposed to do when one of your members goes off the reserve: Something about it. Every day they waited to get serious with the rogue is another round of ground, air, and missile attacks on the victim nation. That's not acceptable. To top it all off, while they couldn't be arsed to handle it, half the LoSS gov had plenty of time to each write their own edition of [u]Interalliance Diplomacy: How to Eat !@#$ Because You're Small[/u] in this thread. Oh, yeah, they got real concerned when the incident came to light. No wonder they all included a section on "Private Channels: the establishment's best friend" because if EU had stuck to the guide, then LoSS could keep ignoring them while hee-hawing status quo jockeys like you snicker at the runaround logs.[/quote]

actually not really. had it been during a time of peace and the gov was basically in relaxed mode i could see this argument. but during a time of a major global war, things are a bit chaotic and attempting to only contact one person in gov and the guy who hit you is just stupid. not getting on IRC or their forums is even more stupid as PMs can be accidently deleted whereas a post on a forum tends to be more permanent and an IRC convo far quicker. Lahire from what i can see from his forum date has played CN for quite a while and should know this. so to me it seems he is the one who wanted to be lazy instead of attempting all channels before going public. either that or he just wanted to attempt to slander LoSS. frankly, i would be stating the same thing for any alliance regardless of whether or not they are allies.

because LoSS seemed to handle it quite well the moment more than one gov member knew so your last bit on how they could keep ignoring it is just ridiculous, unfounded, and pathetic.

[quote]And this whole "they're in a big war" crap is a joke. If [i]any[/i] alliance can't keep it together in war, then they've got no business being in war.[/quote]

LoSS seems to be keeping it together quite nicely. i am stating that contacting only 1 gov person while the alliance is in the midst of a global war is stupid.

[quote]Hear this: When you mess up, you man up. LoSS messed up, and instead of manning up, they showed their smart @#$%. It's not EU that made LoSS look bad, it's [i]LoSS[/i] that made LoSS look bad. Even Arkarian's concession is back-handed and arrogant, and if I were EU I'd tell him to cram his personal reps into whatever hole all that smarm was coming out of. When someone in your alliance attacks someone else, you stop the war if you can, you send the amount you owe, and you mail an apology letter.[/quote]

looks like LoSS did just that. could have sworn that they declared the guy a ghost and are paying reps. how is that back-handed and arrogant? oh wait, it is not. you are just a fool who likes to act as if he is still somehow important.

[quote]Now, Dochartaigh, you think I'm off the deep end? My shallow end is two feet over your head you can't fathom deep in Schloss Eggenberg. My sword is my pen and the force that swings it is the indisputable truth and it cleaves in all directions and is dreadful upon all it strikes. If you thought popping in here with "private channels ftw" was going to have all the steam it used to, then you better brush up on things, because a lot of people gave a lot to change that.[/quote]

nope you are off the deep end, throwing around unfounded crap as if you have some sort of deep insight into LoSS that even they don't have. you did the same to Polaris as well just recently. also, where did i state private channels ftw? oh wait i didn't. i have repeatedly stated that Lahire should have tried all channels prior to going public. if he had contacted half the gov of LoSS, posted on their forums, and contacted them on IRC and gotten ignored, then i would have been all over LoSS for ignoring him when he went public. but he admitted to only contacting 1 gov person and the guy who hit him. sorry, that is not enough for me to make this thread worth the attempt to slander LoSS or any alliance for that matter.

you pen is useless and limp. it no longer wields the slightest bit of power and you are pretty much useless to most from what i have seen.

also, i doubt people fought Karma so that everything could be made public. CN has never really operated that way, nor will it ever. Vox may have fought partially for things to be made public but i could have sworn that most fought in order to allow opinions to be voiced without fear of retribution. that is not the same as "public channels ftw".

and regardless, while i enjoyed many of the posts made by Vox members and regard several of them as friends, that does not mean i hold every opinion they held nor should i have to.

[quote]I said it plain and simple in ho-hum words: It disappointed me. What's more, it surprised me, I had a better impression of LoSS than they've given today. I like LoSS, and I expect to continue liking LoSS, but I don't like what I see and I won't be shut up about it.
[/quote]

that is all fine and dandy but don't make this small matter into something that is far more than what it was. making a mountain out of a molehill is ridiculous.

[jer]

[quote name='Schattenmann' date='12 February 2010 - 04:02 AM' timestamp='1265947378' post='2176433']
Let's get this clear because these little things always turn into a popularity contest real quick, but I hate [i]evvvvery[/i]body so I cut right to the heart of things: LoSS attacked EU. Rogue, confused, ghost, giggles, whatever it was, LoSS's guy attacked EU. The responsibility for solving this, then, lies squarly on LoSS. Everything after that is static.

You're got froth all over your bloodred face screaming how crazy I am, and in your pissfit you stated that EU should have contacted "anyone else in gov"--If you've already contacted the triumvir, who the hell else do you suggest he contact, Doch? Admin? Push that pulsing vein on your forehead back down, and have a cold one before you get all rage-dumb with me again.

I said LoSS handled this bad, and they did. They were sloppy and dismissive and when somebody doesn't get an answer guess where they go? You got it: right here. As I said, I'm real sorry if LoSS got upset that this turned public; but look at the bright side: Next time they get a message saying "hey, your duder is attacking us" instead of "forgetting to reply" and "giving it a few days" they'll do what you're supposed to do when one of your members goes off the reserve: Something about it. Every day they waited to get serious with the rogue is another round of ground, air, and missile attacks on the victim nation. That's not acceptable. To top it all off, while they couldn't be arsed to handle it, half the LoSS gov had plenty of time to each write their own edition of [u]Interalliance Diplomacy: How to Eat !@#$ Because You're Small[/u] in this thread. Oh, yeah, they got real concerned when the incident came to light. No wonder they all included a section on "Private Channels: the establishment's best friend" because if EU had stuck to the guide, then LoSS could keep ignoring them while hee-hawing status quo jockeys like you snicker at the runaround logs.

And this whole "they're in a big war" crap is a joke. If [i]any[/i] alliance can't keep it together in war, then they've got no business being in war.

Hear this: When you mess up, you man up. LoSS messed up, and instead of manning up, they showed their smart @#$%. It's not EU that made LoSS look bad, it's [i]LoSS[/i] that made LoSS look bad. Even Arkarian's concession is back-handed and arrogant, and if I were EU I'd tell him to cram his personal reps into whatever hole all that smarm was coming out of. When someone in your alliance attacks someone else, you stop the war if you can, you send the amount you owe, and you mail an apology letter.

Now, Dochartaigh, you think I'm off the deep end? My shallow end is two feet over your head you can't fathom deep in Schloss Eggenberg. My sword is my pen and the force that swings it is the indisputable truth and it cleaves in all directions and is dreadful upon all it strikes. If you thought popping in here with "private channels ftw" was going to have all the steam it used to, then you better brush up on things, because a lot of people gave a lot to change that.

I said it plain and simple in ho-hum words: It disappointed me. What's more, it surprised me, I had a better impression of LoSS than they've given today. I like LoSS, and I expect to continue liking LoSS, but I don't like what I see and I won't be shut up about it.
[/quote]
Beautiful post, one of the best I've ever read. It's not that I agree with every word (I do), but I am just in love with the pure elegance of the thing. Quick, someone hand me one of them I Love Schattenmann banners.

[Schattenmann]

Doch, if you don't know the definitions of the terms you're using, you and I really can't continue.

A claim is only slander if it's false. EU has stated the events in banal terms, LoSS has not contradicted them.

If you think your continued insistance that EU should limit their contact to IRC and LoSS's forum is not an insistance on private channels, you're a lunatic. That's what private channels means.

If contacting a triumvir of an alliance isn't high enough, then nothing is.

And if you can't understand the tone of the posts of LoSS gov and membership as the hotcrap smartmouth replies that they are, then I have to attribute it to your not being a native speaker, apparently.

[quote name='Dochartaigh' date='12 February 2010 - 02:56 PM' timestamp='1266004562' post='2177974']
that is all fine and dandy but don't make this small matter into something that is far more than what it was. making a mountain out of a molehill is ridiculous.
[/quote]
Let's hit the scrollbar, shall we? I said "I'm disappointed" you said "YOU'RE OFF THE DEEP END SHATTENHASBEEN!" I had to climb [i]your[/i] mountain to bury you on top of it.

[quote name='Aimee Mann' date='12 February 2010 - 05:49 PM' timestamp='1266014984' post='2178236']
Beautiful post, one of the best I've ever read. It's not that I agree with every word (I do), but I am just in love with the pure elegance of the thing. Quick, someone hand me one of them I Love Schattenmann banners.
[/quote]
Much obliged, ma'am.
[img]http://i43.tinypic.com/dy3rya.jpg[/img]

Edited February 12, 2010 by Schattenmann

[Electron Sponge]

Someone needs to explain to me why the hell people should be forced to jump through hoops in order to have a grievance redressed when they've obviously been heard already. From my point of view, it seems like what is being said is, "No no no, not here in World Affairs, not an ingame message, talk to us on our IRC channel. What's that? You don't use IRC? Talk to us in our IRC channel. It matters nothing to us that a wrong was committed in our name. Dance to the tune we call or you're out of luck." Sort of a d-bag way to handle things, don't you think? Why should they be forced to establish a whole new means of communication that they've previously eschewed just for your convenience? Honestly, I want to know the answer to that question.

Of course, it could just be that LoSS is run by incompetents who have a problem with communication. How hard is it, and how much time would it take, for one person in their government to actually look into the situation, see the guy was either a ghost or operating against orders, and tell the Europeans to fire away? I've been in high leadership in 4 different alliances. In 3 of those alliances we had occasional problems with ghosts and/or rogues. Every single time someone brought something like this to my attention I acted on it quickly and hopefully to the satisfaction of the aggrieved party. It wasn't hard and it probably didn't take me more than a few minutes in each instance. Even if I didn't have an immediate answer for them I'd at least communicate [i]something[/i]. "I'm on the case, we'll get this resolved ASAP and you'll be the first to know." Something like that. A few times I've even arranged compensation for the victims of attacks made in the name of alliances I've run. That's how you handle situations like this. If you want to know how [i]not[/i] to handle these situations, look at LoSS.

[La Hire]

My friends,

I have received much support from many people regarding this matter, and for that myself and my alliance: The European Union, are highly grateful and will remain forever grateful. I have also seen behavior from certain government officials at LoSS that reflects poorly on their alliance in my eyes and that of others, with one government official being particularly rude, disrespectful, and further adding insult to injury. Despite this, I have also seen behavior by LoSS government officials that has earned back some of the respect that I have lost when this matter began, and from that certain government official's postings in this thread. As the government member of The European Union currently in charge of this matter on behalf of our alliance, I will disclose all of the details of the closure that we have reached with LoSS; The original nation that is guilty of attacking a member in our alliance has been labeled a rouge, and is being retaliated against as we speak and with the full consent of LoSS. LoSS has also agreed to provide compensation to Mozartia, the nation in our alliance who was originally attacked and is the true victim in all of this.

Seeing as closure has officially been reached regarding this matter, I see no further reason for debate to continue in this thread. I would like to once again personally thank each and every member and alliance who has stood up for The European Union and supported our cause, your contributions to our alliance will never be forgotten. This matter however, has now officially been closed on good terms with both our government and the government of LoSS, both of our alliances are seeking to place this event behind us and seeing that closure has been reached there is no reason for further debate regarding this matter to ensue.

With that said, I would like to make one final request to everyone here: Please stop posting in this thread, The European Union is ready to move beyond this matter and place it behind us.