Aqua Defense Initiative Announcement

[Nick1a]

Salutations your Excellency. It is truly an honor to be in the presence of one as esteemed as yourself. May your chivalry and valor serve the kingdom for ages to come.

[KinKiac]

QFT

The fact it was a 110mil to 156mil curbstomp had an influence on our decision- we didn't support the mindless destruction of the other side that would happen to affect our friends in FEAR, NATO and Invicta

But, you didnt JUST withdraw support now did you? You decided it would be "fun" to stir the pot, then log dumped to RoK's enemies in an attempt to get them rolled. Doesnt matter if the logs are faked or not. You still tried to get your former protectorate rolled. I realize Hoo may have said he didnt want anything to do with you after that, but guess what, he was probably pissed. If you had given it time, he may have warmed up to you again. But no, instead you make a rash decision and try to get them rolled.

Ragnarok - 6,520,270

Athens - 5,862,750

Global Order Of Darkness - 3,056,785

\m/ - 2,285,466

TOTAL - 17,725,271

However, when you throw in the combined NS of the rest of SF and C&G, you're over 100 mill NS...and don't think for a minute the rest of those blocs weren't "on call if needed", because they were.

edit: grammar is fun

And Im sure TPF's allies were in waiting too right? The numbers didnt add up to a curbstomp.

Seriously, canceling treaties because the other alliance had a conscience and enacted the 'optional' clause gains Athens and RoK no points in my book.

How is log dumping to get your former protectorate rolled "having a conscience"?

Allegedly. Seeing as it is relatively easy for either party to fake a log...I'd have to say that this little pissing contest is starting to get old, boring, and tiring.

Ill say it again, it doesnt matter if the logs were faked or not, they were given to your former protectorate's enemies in an attempt to get them rolled. Doesnt matter if faked or not, some conversations are meant to be private, and keeping them that way after a minor falling out, would have shown a lot of respect.

A lot of Argent members are friends with ratonbox and other ADI members. We have no official relations between alliances, but our members are affectionate toward your alliance. I believe ratonbox was merely giving a shoutout, since he separated you from the rest of his hails.

I echo this sentiment. In every thread I post in, this argument follows me. I believe people have enough evidence to make their own conclusions and everyone has the right to an opinion. However, that has nothing at all to do with what is going on in this thread.

You're right, we all have all the evidence needed to come to a single conclusion; you log dumped to get RoK rolled.

He pulled support for RoK well before CC was well organized and filled out. He either didn't support the curbstomp or has incredible powers of future vision.

His feelings against the perceived curbstomp must have been pretty strong to drive him to try to have RoK rolled for it.

[Michael von Prussia]

How is log dumping to get your former protectorate rolled "having a conscience"?

They refused to enter a war which they (and half the rest of the world) viewed as unjust. RoK attempted to pass off their aggressive war on TPF as a defensive one, and ADI saw it for what it was: aggressive. ADI then decided not to honor the optional aggression part of the agreement, something which usually can't be a reason for canceling treaties. RoK did anyway. RoK is in the wrong, and ADI the right. There're no ifs, ands, or buts about it.

EDIT: Because I'm an idiot

Edited January 8, 2010 by Michael von Prussia

[NoFish]

I'm pretty sure KinKiac means "protector" when he says "protectorate" but other than that, I quite agree him.

Edit: Michael, the issue taken was not with ADI deciding not to oblige on their optional defense agreement (it was, after all, optional) but that they said in private that they would, then said nothing else until a public announcement to the contrary.

Edited January 8, 2010 by NoFish

[bigwoody]

His feelings against the perceived curbstomp must have been pretty strong to drive him to try to have RoK rolled for it.

You'll note I'm not backing or detracting Warbuck's action as a whole, merely pointing out that one particular explanation offered did not fit at all.

[John Warbuck]

But, you didnt JUST withdraw support now did you? You decided it would be "fun" to stir the pot, then log dumped to RoK's enemies in an attempt to get them rolled. Doesnt matter if the logs are faked or not. You still tried to get your former protectorate rolled. I realize Hoo may have said he didnt want anything to do with you after that, but guess what, he was probably pissed. If you had given it time, he may have warmed up to you again. But no, instead you make a rash decision and try to get them rolled.

And Im sure TPF's allies were in waiting too right? The numbers didnt add up to a curbstomp.

How is log dumping to get your former protectorate rolled "having a conscience"?

Ill say it again, it doesnt matter if the logs were faked or not, they were given to your former protectorate's enemies in an attempt to get them rolled. Doesnt matter if faked or not, some conversations are meant to be private, and keeping them that way after a minor falling out, would have shown a lot of respect.

You're right, we all have all the evidence needed to come to a single conclusion; you log dumped to get RoK rolled.

His feelings against the perceived curbstomp must have been pretty strong to drive him to try to have RoK rolled for it.

But, you didnt JUST withdraw support now did you? You decided it would be "fun" to stir the pot, then log dumped to RoK's enemies in an attempt to get them rolled. Doesnt matter if the logs are faked or not. You still tried to get your former protectorate rolled. I realize Hoo may have said he didnt want anything to do with you after that, but guess what, he was probably pissed. If you had given it time, he may have warmed up to you again. But no, instead you make a rash decision and try to get them rolled.

RoK didn't just cancel the treaty. They told us we better get off of aqua- we weren't wanted here.

And Im sure TPF's allies were in waiting too right? The numbers didnt add up to a curbstomp.

TPF and allies added to 110 mil NS at the time- vs 156 mil NS for RoK and their allies.

How is log dumping to get your former protectorate rolled "having a conscience"?

There is a clause in our treaties with both FEAR and MHA that requires us to share important information, or any information which may put the ally in harm's way. I'd say that the threat of permanent destruction passes for that.

Ill say it again, it doesnt matter if the logs were faked or not, they were given to your former protectorate's enemies in an attempt to get them rolled. Doesnt matter if faked or not, some conversations are meant to be private, and keeping them that way after a minor falling out, would have shown a lot of respect.

You're right, we all have all the evidence needed to come to a single conclusion; you log dumped to get RoK rolled.

Nah, I did it to protect my friends. Friends, that when I initially didn't support them, were still my friends. RoK, at the moment we chose not to support them, canceled and threatened us. Think what you wish.

His feelings against the perceived curbstomp must have been pretty strong to drive him to try to have RoK rolled for it.

My feelings on my friends being forced out of the game are indeed, very strong.

[NoFish]

There is a clause in our treaties with both FEAR and MHA that requires us to share important information, or any information which may put the ally in harm's way. I'd say that the threat of permanent destruction passes for that.

Pretty sure there was nothing in the logs (original, nor your edit) relevant to MHA, one of Rok's allies, and ceretainly nothing that was a threat to them. You had no reason, nor right to leak those logs to MHA, except to try to damage Hoo's reputation in their eyes..

[John Warbuck]

Pretty sure there was nothing in the logs (original, nor your edit) relevant to MHA, one of Rok's allies, and ceretainly nothing that was a threat to them. You had no reason, nor right to leak those logs to MHA, except to try to damage Hoo's reputation in their eyes..

Let me rebold....

There is a clause in our treaties with both FEAR and MHA that requires us to share important information, or any information which may put the ally in harm's way. I'd say that the threat of permanent destruction passes for that.

MHA had the right to our information, and when their government wanted to know why ADI took the stance that they did, via our PIAT agreement, MHA had full rights to the information.

[NoFish]

Let me rebold....

There is a clause in our treaties with both FEAR and MHA that requires us to share important information, or any information which may put the ally in harm's way. I'd say that the threat of permanent destruction passes for that.

MHA had the right to our information, and when their government wanted to know why ADI took the stance that they did, via our PIAT agreement, MHA had full rights to the information.

So you're saying you only took your anti-Rok stance because of that one line of one log, thus making it essential for MHA to know about?

Just for the sake of clarity, of course.

[Big Z]

So now you're claiming that the one line (that you added on) to the logs is the justification for passing them on to other alliances? How amusing.

[von Metternich]

RoK threatend you? To roll you?

[jerdge]

MHA had the right to our information, and when their government wanted to know why ADI took the stance that they did, via our PIAT agreement, MHA had full rights to the information.

I wish to stress that yes, we have the right to any information, regardless of the context, of the content, of the identity of the people involved and no matter who collected it.

For any information you have to give us - whoever! - please drop a memo in any of the mail boxes at our headquarters. I'm too busy to stay right now (but I'll dedicate a few minutes to autographs in the Aqua Hall at 2nd floor: hurry up!)

[KinKiac]

I'm pretty sure KinKiac means "protector" when he says "protectorate" but other than that, I quite agree him.

Edit: Michael, the issue taken was not with ADI deciding not to oblige on their optional defense agreement (it was, after all, optional) but that they said in private that they would, then said nothing else until a public announcement to the contrary.

Whoops, yeah I meant protector, lol. Also, I want to add that I have no ties to RoK in any way shape or form. I do not know anyone from RoK, my alliance does not have any treaties with RoK(that I could find on our forums anyway), and I have no reason to defend or stand up for them. I just see the whole log dump business as being a knife in the back regardless of what alliances were involved. In fact, I think they were one of the alliances that jumped us in the NoCB war. I just cant believe you guys promoted the guy that almost got you rolled, which you would have been, had the war played out and peace had not been declared.

And, as always I speak for myself and not my alliance.

[John Warbuck]

So you're saying you only took your anti-Rok stance because of that one line of one log, thus making it essential for MHA to know about?

Just for the sake of clarity, of course.

No, the one line was an afterthought- in fact, the entire conversation made me make my stance. That one log was not the only log shared, but it was the only log leaked. The rest of the information had been kept private and kept privately well. Who leaked that particular part of the log is a mystery, but that one single line was not the sole determining factor in my choice. It was the fact that RoK would "always be at odds" with my friends in FEAR- the rest is clear at that point. RoK wanted their destruction. I couldn't support it. And that is all I have to say on the matter anymore.

[KinKiac]

No, the one line was an afterthought- in fact, the entire conversation made me make my stance. That one log was not the only log shared, but it was the only log leaked. The rest of the information had been kept private and kept privately well. Who leaked that particular part of the log is a mystery, but that one single line was not the sole determining factor in my choice. It was the fact that RoK would "always be at odds" with my friends in FEAR- the rest is clear at that point. RoK wanted their destruction. I couldn't support it. And that is all I have to say on the matter anymore.

I didnt think FEAR or MHA were mentioned in those logs?

[Lord Tri]

Okay, this whole thread is getting ridiculous and off topic. Believe it or not, this thread was originally about governmental changes and all that good stuff.

As the original poster, I'm pretty sure this thread had absolutely nothing to do with the TPF War. For those who like to waste their time arguing about nothing, trolls and ADI membership alike, please keep it out of what is meant to be a notice to alliances interested in our new charter and government. I have no problem with people displaying their opinion on an issue, but the OP contained no such issue, it acted simply as a notification of our interior changes.

While it is not in my power to demand it, I am going to request that all ADI member nations, including government, refrain from posting in this thread.

[Xerxes II]

They refused to enter a war which they (and half the rest of the world) viewed as unjust. RoK attempted to pass off their aggressive war on TPF as a defensive one, and ADI saw it for what it was: aggressive. ADI then decided not to honor the optional defense part of the agreement, something which usually can't be a reason for canceling treaties. RoK did anyway. RoK is in the wrong, and ADI the right. There're no ifs, ands, or buts about it.

This is where you're wrong. The treaty between ADI and RoK was a MDoAP, meaning that there was a MUTUAL defense part, not optional. Failure to uphold a mutual defense clause is certainly a reason for canceling a treaty.

Please do research, especially when trying to support subjective judgement calls of "right" and "wrong" >.< I assume you mean aggression in that statement, but I shouldn't make such assumptions

Edited January 8, 2010 by Xerxes II

[John Warbuck]

Okay, this whole thread is getting ridiculous and off topic. Believe it or not, this thread was originally about governmental changes and all that good stuff.

As the original poster, I'm pretty sure this thread had absolutely nothing to do with the TPF War. For those who like to waste their time arguing about nothing, trolls and ADI membership alike, please keep it out of what is meant to be a notice to alliances interested in our new charter and government. I have no problem with people displaying their opinion on an issue, but the OP contained no such issue, it acted simply as a notification of our interior changes.

While it is not in my power to demand it, I am going to request that all ADI member nations, including government, refrain from posting in this thread.

Being that it is in my power to do so, I will back up Lord Tri's request. The issues we have with RoK belong in another thread, indeed.

[Michael von Prussia]

This is where you're wrong. The treaty between ADI and RoK was a MDoAP, meaning that there was a MUTUAL defense part, not optional. Failure to uphold a mutual defense clause is certainly a reason for canceling a treaty.

Please do research, especially when trying to support subjective judgement calls of "right" and "wrong" >.< I assume you mean aggression in that statement, but I shouldn't make such assumptions

This is my fault. Let me correct myself (which I'll also do in the post):

"ADI then decided not to honor the optional aggression part of the agreement"

Sorry. My whole argument revolves around the fact that this was an aggressive war which they chose not to back. Hope that clarifies.

[Penkala]

Might want to dial it down from '11' there, Rokkie. We get why Ragnarok doesn't like ADI already, honest.

You would know all about stabbing Ragnarok in the back, Hal.

[Penkala]

My feelings on my friends being forced out of the game are indeed, very strong.

Just one problem: you're the only one who typed any line about forcing FEAR et. al out of the game. Hoo never typed it once. You did.

[Fantastico]

Okay, this whole thread is getting ridiculous and off topic. Believe it or not, this thread was originally about governmental changes and all that good stuff.

As the original poster, I'm pretty sure this thread had absolutely nothing to do with the TPF War. For those who like to waste their time arguing about nothing, trolls and ADI membership alike, please keep it out of what is meant to be a notice to alliances interested in our new charter and government. I have no problem with people displaying their opinion on an issue, but the OP contained no such issue, it acted simply as a notification of our interior changes.

While it is not in my power to demand it, I am going to request that all ADI member nations, including government, refrain from posting in this thread.

I asked questions about your government changes and you responded with edited out posts and then a descent into some nonsense about the wonders of shoes and bunnies.

As for the part you bolded, good point.

Being that it is in my power to do so, I will back up Lord Tri's request.

I'll admit, I lol'd.

Finally, I see you still are hung up on the WE ARE NOT PAWNS thing, and I actually agree with you. With these changes today, you are now puppets for an emerging powerbloc that finds you cute, and not in the ways you think.

I hope both of you, as well as the members of your alliance, return to read this thread again in a few months. I have every confidence you will see things quite differently than you do today.

It might take longer for you to see just how well you were played here, but I know it will happen.

With that, best wishes, bon voyage, etc.

Peace.

edited for typos

Edited January 8, 2010 by Fantastico

[Xerxes II]

This is my fault. Let me correct myself (which I'll also do in the post):

"ADI then decided not to honor the optional aggression part of the agreement"

Sorry. My whole argument revolves around the fact that this was an aggressive war which they chose not to back. Hope that clarifies.

That certainly helps ^^ I knew what you mean, but just wanted to make sure; I've been surprised a few times ;;

[NoFish]

This is my fault. Let me correct myself (which I'll also do in the post):

"ADI then decided not to honor the optional aggression part of the agreement"

Sorry. My whole argument revolves around the fact that this was an aggressive war which they chose not to back. Hope that clarifies.

I believe my earlier point still stands (and has been made before), however, that it was not the lack of support that prompted the cancellation, but rather the two-faced nature of assuring someone of your support and then without notifying them otherwise, issuing a public statement contradicting those assurances.

No, the one line was an afterthought- in fact, the entire conversation made me make my stance. That one log was not the only log shared, but it was the only log leaked. The rest of the information had been kept private and kept privately well. Who leaked that particular part of the log is a mystery, but that one single line was not the sole determining factor in my choice. It was the fact that RoK would "always be at odds" with my friends in FEAR- the rest is clear at that point. RoK wanted their destruction. I couldn't support it. And that is all I have to say on the matter anymore.

Funny, then that you still told Van Hoo III that you would defend Rok in the war even after hearing that, isn't it? I mean, usually the response to hearing something that bothers you so much you don't want to back an ally in a war is "Dude, wtf?" not "Don't worry, man, I got your back."

It seems to me that even under the presumption that you didn't fake logs in that particular situation, you're still a two-faced liar. Ephriam Grey is a greater man than you. For all he lied and falsified logs he only did it to his enemies, not his allies.

[SpiderJerusalem]

Yeah, generally when people go separate ways about things, one of them following the other one around to the mall, their work, the grocery store, their friends' houses yelling that the person is a moron and an idiot is not deemed normal behavior. YAY Internet for allowing people to not act normal.

Wait, here I was the one thinking that you were the one acting irrational with all the lying, faking, crying and licking the buttocks of your former allies' enemies

This is beginning to sound like a movie - Fatal Attraction.

I think you are confusing it with a different Michael Douglas movie - A Perfect Murder. Because that's what would have been taking place right now if I made the calls

Might want to dial it down from '11' there, Rokkie. We get why Ragnarok doesn't like ADI already, honest.

Hi cutiepie. Why do you lie? Do you want us to die? If we don't, will you cry? Maybe you want me to sing you a lullaby? Cutipie

That's my poem for you

Because I respect you

And adore you

And, $%&@, I can't do this.

CH: I am glad you've found an alliance that fits you

I'd say that the threat of permanent destruction passes for that.

Remember the rules dude, puff, puff, pass. Don't take it all by yourself, or you'll end up talking about abstract theories with no root in the real world... Oh...

RoK, at the moment we chose not to support them, canceled and threatened us.

Oh God. When you came with your scrawny and sorry $@! asking us for help, we helped. Even if it meant bullying a stand up Aqua alliance for you. Because that's what allies do. You on the other hand, said you supported us and stood by us, and then later did a 180 and gave info to people that may end up as our enemies... In the old days, rabid and diseased dogs like you would have been taken behind the shed and shot.

My feelings on my friends being forced out of the game are indeed, very strong.

Then why did you add the line? Since well, it seems like a Freudian slip on your side. It seems that you have an inner wish, a dark side that wished them dead.

MHA had the right to our information, and when their government wanted to know why ADI took the stance that they did, via our PIAT agreement, MHA had full rights to the information.

Thing is, your stance was idiotic in the first place. You should have stood by our side in the first place. Instead, you acted like total $%&@s and went behind our back

Who leaked that particular part of the log is a mystery,

Yes, a real mystery indeed.

Being that it is in my power to do so, I will back up Lord Tri's request. The issues we have with RoK belong in another thread, indeed.

Come back, chicken. I am not even remotely done with you. Come here and I'll rip you apart

Edited January 8, 2010 by SpiderJerusalem