Wilhelm the Demented Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 If the operation ended, why does the alliance still exist? And why is it still using the same name? Sloppy covert ops, just sloppy, sloppy. Try reading next time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dochartaigh Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 There we go. I editted it to make it more clear for you. I assumed you would have realized that I meant when you are ending a relationship, and tell her brother it's p. much over.Beernuts is a TPF magistrate, one of the upper levels of TPF government. Usually a government member is a member of an alliance. If you are trying to argue, "wait, you said he was a member", it's your own damn fault for not knowing TPF's government members. Even if you have nothing to do with them, it's really not hard to find out. OOC: Hint: There's a wiki. ooc: sorry, been up for way too long but have to feed the cats shortly so have to stay up. but needless to say, my brain is beginning to cease working.... IC: ok, i figured that out and why should i give a damn who TPF's gov is especially from several months ago? i am not in gov and have been busy these past few months so why should i know who their gov was from Aug? ooc: meh, i hate trying to look up the CNwiki and my comp is going waaaaayyyyyy to slow for some reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dilber Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 where? again, i do not see Athens signature on that peace treaty unless it was done in invisible ink. Archon posted as "Voice of Karma". Athens called itself a member of Karma in numerous public places. TPF surrendered to Karma. MK and Athens are members of C&G. Article II We pledge mutual defense AND aggression in times of conflict, doing so with the utmost trust in each others motives and reasoning. We live as one, and fight as one. MK signed the treaty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBone Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 many words....so i must be right Mhawk said he had no contact with ZH since shortly before he left for his trip to Africa. I have not seen evidence to the contrary. The logs I was throwing around show ZH government coming to Beernuts, who was one of the three guys mhawk left in charge in his absence, ending the proposed plan, before TPF has signed terms, which happened on the 4th of August. By definition this conspiracy can not still exist on August 4th if one of the two parties involved is no longer on board. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Srqt Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 (edited) where? again, i do not see Athens signature on that peace treaty unless it was done in invisible ink. Signature or not the treaty specifies that TPF surrenders to all of Karma. It is well documented that Athens was a member of Karma. If Athens took exception to being an alliance that TPF surrendered to I assure you they had plenty of opportunity, Londo was quite active on the Karma forums and I am very sure he saw the treaty before it was signed and had the chance to clarify. Considering the treaty was posted (and most likely penned) by one of Athens closest allies only brings even more credence to the fact that TPF surrendered to Athens already. Edited December 28, 2009 by KingSrqt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilhelm the Demented Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 my thoughts exactly.This happened in war. If it had happened outside/after Karma, then there would be a problem, but it didn't. Athens hasn't proven that this Op existed after the surrender. Only that it existed during the war, and spying happens all the time during wars. They did not receive peace from Athens after Karma, because they did not actively engage Athens during Karma. Sure they were on opposite sides, but spying is spying, despite when it happened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorConcept Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 Archon posted as "Voice of Karma". Athens called itself a member of Karma in numerous public places. TPF surrendered to Karma. MK and Athens are members of C&G.Article II We pledge mutual defense AND aggression in times of conflict, doing so with the utmost trust in each others motives and reasoning. We live as one, and fight as one. MK signed the treaty. So TPF talked to Athens about the acts of war during the peace negotiations? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dilber Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 ooc: sorry, been up for way too long but have to feed the cats shortly so have to stay up. but needless to say, my brain is beginning to cease working.... IC: ok, i figured that out and why should i give a damn who TPF's gov is especially from several months ago? i am not in gov and have been busy these past few months so why should i know who their gov was from Aug? ooc: meh, i hate trying to look up the CNwiki and my comp is going waaaaayyyyyy to slow for some reason. If you are knowingly ignorant, you shouldn't be arguing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Srqt Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 So TPF talked to Athens about the acts of war during the peace negotiations? Why does it matter. TPF surrendered to Athens which means Athens absolved them of thier acts during the war. THE END. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dochartaigh Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 Mhawk said he had no contact with ZH since shortly before he left for his trip to Africa. I have not seen evidence to the contrary.The logs I was throwing around show ZH government coming to Beernuts, who was one of the three guys mhawk left in charge in his absence, ending the proposed plan, before TPF has signed terms, which happened on the 4th of August. By definition this conspiracy can not still exist on August 4th if one of the two parties involved is no longer on board. clarification- ZH wanted to discuss ending it. they never officially stated it was over just that they wanted to talk about ending it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Louis the II Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 my thoughts exactly.This happened in war. If it had happened outside/after Karma, then there would be a problem, but it didn't. Athens hasn't proven that this Op existed after the surrender. Only that it existed during the war, and spying happens all the time during wars. I know that this is only the 1,345,672 time that somebody would say that, but it is not only "spying", was to infiltrate an alliance and try to get in the ranks and create tension and ultimately "destroy" (their words not mine) the alliance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fantastico Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 Try reading next time. What I wrote actually is at the heart of this whole mess. Had the operation/alliance "Zero Hour" disbanded when the operation was "ended," TPF would not be in this war. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorConcept Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 Why does it matter. TPF surrendered to Athens which means Athens absolved them of thier acts during the war. THE END. Athens talked to TPF and absolved them of their acts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Conrad Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 (edited) Signature or not the treaty specifies that TPF surrenders to all of Karma. It is well documented that Athens was a member of Karma. If Athens took exception to being an alliance that TPF surrendered to I assure you they had plenty of opportunity, Londo was quite active on the Karma forums and I am very sure he saw the treaty before it was signed and had the chance to clarify. Considering the treaty was posted (and most likely penned) by one of Athens closest allies only brings even more credence to the fact that TPF surrendered to Athens already. You're falling into the same line of thinking that suggested Karma was a formal bloc whereas it was merely a wartime coalition. This led to the same people getting mad at people largely uninvolved with surrender terms people felt were either too harsh or too light. I seriously doubt everyone fighting TPF engaged Athens along with every single other alliance in Karma and asked if it was okay to give TPF those surrender terms. EDIT: missed a word Edited December 28, 2009 by Matthew Conrad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dochartaigh Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 If you are knowingly ignorant, you shouldn't be arguing it. actually i never once argued about gov being involved. i argued that ZH never ended it in that log. they wanted to discuss ending it with mhawk. but they never came out and told beernuts it was over. so my ignorance of beernuts being gov is inconsequential. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin McDonald Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 Weren't you one of the people that claimed FAN and Vox should be set free? I don't believe so... I may have made supportive posts of them during the Karma war, but that would have been justified. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pasquali Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 OOC: If you are invading someones forums, their personal property, to steal their information that they themselves compiled, that is wrong. A hell of a lot worse than "spying" away a nuke ingame.Furthermore, you have to think about the actual amount of harm that is caused by the actions taken/intended. At most, running spy operations against an individual nation isn't going to cost them more than a few million dollars. However, by running an operation of this kind against an alliance, you jeopardize the sovereignty of the alliance and the safety of all members. I hope that cleared it up for you. I didn't actually need anything cleared up for me, thanks. Spying remains spying, regardless of the scope of the operation. Just because he used creativity and imagination doesn't make it any more of an offense than spying away a nuke (which potentially saves millions of lives). Spying is acceptable in wartime. However, he wasn't at war with Athens. Which makes it a big no-no. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dilber Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 You're falling into the same line of thinking that suggested Karma was a formal bloc whereas it was merely a wartime coalition. This led to the same people getting mad at people largely uninvolved with surrender terms people felt were either too harsh or too light. I seriously doubt everyone fighting TPF engaged Athens along with every single other alliance in Karma and asked if it was okay to give TPF those surrender terms.EDIT: missed a word Actually, by both C&G and Mobius accords, they were in a state of war. Athens was at war with NPO, activating Mobius, while C&G states they are all together both offensively and defensively. I'd also assume that Archon and Londo talked, and claiming otherwise is a really poor argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dilber Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 I don't believe so... I may have made supportive posts of them during the Karma war, but that would have been justified. What's the difference? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin McDonald Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 What's the difference? None, I guess. So we're agreed TPF spied just as FAN did? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dilber Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 actually i never once argued about gov being involved. i argued that ZH never ended it in that log. they wanted to discuss ending it with mhawk. but they never came out and told beernuts it was over. so my ignorance of beernuts being gov is inconsequential. When one side says they want to end it, that means it's over. Where is the log from August 24th with them discussing it? That should be really easy to show, if they had it. If there was no further contact post-surrender terms, then it was ended then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Srqt Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 Athens talked to TPF and absolved them of their acts? I don't know all I know is that TPF's peace treaty says that they surrendered to Athens. Who talked to who does not matter. If Athens was incompetent enough to allow surrender of an alliance without finding out what if anything they had done why should that allow them to go back on an accepted surrender? Or does incompetence excuse your allies and not yur enemies? You're falling into the same line of thinking that suggested Karma was a formal bloc whereas it was merely a wartime coalition. This led to the same people getting mad at people largely uninvolved with surrender terms people felt were either too harsh or too light. I seriously doubt everyone fighting TPF engaged Athens along with every single other alliance in Karma and asked if it was okay to give TPF those surrender terms.EDIT: missed a word It was a wartime coalition with much discussion and shared communication on things, especially surrender terms. Athens was quite vocally a member of the coalition and according to the treaty posted by not only a fellow Karma member but someone who they were in a formal Bloc with, TPF surrendered to Athens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dilber Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 None, I guess. So we're agreed TPF spied just as FAN did? I'm pretty certain everyone was arguing that it was going on during the war. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin McDonald Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 I'm pretty certain everyone was arguing that it was going on during the war. Yep, TPF spied during the war. Then they kept spying after. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Conrad Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 (edited) I don't know all I know is that TPF's peace treaty says that they surrendered to Athens. Who talked to who does not matter. If Athens was incompetent enough to allow surrender of an alliance without finding out what if anything they had done why should that allow them to go back on an accepted surrender?Or does incompetence excuse your allies and not yur enemies? It was a wartime coalition with much discussion and shared communication on things, especially surrender terms. Athens was quite vocally a member of the coalition and according to the treaty posted by not only a fellow Karma member but someone who they were in a formal Bloc with, TPF surrendered to Athens. Athens was a very vocal member on the NPO front. Unless you have evidence suggesting they were heavily involved for whatever reason with the TPF front you have no evidence they had any part in TPF surrender term negotiations. There's also the fact their signature doesn't appear on the surrender terms, whether they're in a formal bloc with MK or not. Otherwise, I'm sure some people can e-lawyer their way into proving TPF surrendered to someone fighting on their own side through chaining treaties. EDIT: clarification Edited December 28, 2009 by Matthew Conrad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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