Countdown to Athens Rep Payment

[Wilhelm the Demented]

By resolving it, you mean lowering the reps every time someone dares interferes in Athens' personal business? It's bad enough that people stopped Athens from obliterating Knights of Ni. But how dare they question when Athens is going to pay up!

So the people's interference is lowering the reps? But the people are going to make them pay up?

If it hasn't been resolved, it's between the Knights of Ni and Athens to resolve it. Makes sense right?

[rsoxbronco1]

By resolving it, you mean lowering the reps every time someone dares interferes in Athens' personal business? It's bad enough that people stopped Athens from obliterating Knights of Ni. But how dare they question when Athens is going to pay up!

If you had read the whole thread, you'd know that we wouldn't be paying anything. I'm really getting tired of having to tell people that.

It's like you geniuses are getting mixed messages.

[Angrator]

So the people's interference is lowering the reps? But the people are going to make them pay up?

If it hasn't been resolved, it's between the Knights of Ni and Athens to resolve it. Makes sense right?

If this had always stayed between the Knights of Ni and Athens, the Knights of Ni would just be rubble now.

If you had read the whole thread, you'd know that we wouldn't be paying anything. I'm really getting tired of having to tell people that.

It's like you geniuses are getting mixed messages.

First, Athens says the NPO is going to be paying the reps. Then, Athens' is paying the reps. Then, they're arbitrarily lowering the reps. Now they're not paying the reps? Why don't you go ahead and enlighten me? Pardon me if I'm not more than a little confused by all the changes that Athens is making.

Edited December 5, 2009 by Angrator

[Matthew Conrad]

By resolving it, you mean lowering the reps every time someone dares interferes in Athens' personal business? It's bad enough that people stopped Athens from obliterating Knights of Ni. But how dare they question when Athens is going to pay up!

Heya, why don't you go ahead and point out to me where I said people couldn't ask Athens about the reps. There's being concerned and then there's grandstanding to try and score some cheap PR points. The problem is people like you jumping in with all sorts of bravado without taking the time to actually inform themselves of what has already gone down. Jumping on the bandwagon on page 20-something is one way to go I suppose.

[Iotupa]

Justice is its own business.

It's not a TV show.

I'm well aware we're not on a TV show...well, I suppose there could be news coverage of this, as it is an interesting political situation.

When everyone is once again afraid to speak up when they see injustice or potential injustice, then everything that "Karma" supposedly fought for when they were taking out the NPO will have been for nothing.

[Wilhelm the Demented]

If this had always stayed between the Knights of Ni and Athens, the Knights of Ni would just be rubble now.

All resolutions are not favorable, put simply.

And, on this tangent - Intervention becomes appropriate based on circumstances. Whether or not Athens will pay reps based on a timescale found favorable by the rest of the world as opposed to the Knights of Ni's and Athens' is a completely different circumstance.

If this was a "When will Athens Give KoN Peace?" discussion, aside from being irrelevant based on the way things actually panned out, public pressure would be more appropriate for the Knights of Ni's sake.

[Matthew Conrad]

I'm well aware we're not on a TV show...well, I suppose there could be news coverage of this, as it is an interesting political situation.

When everyone is once again afraid to speak up when they see injustice or potential injustice, then everything that "Karma" supposedly fought for when they were taking out the NPO will have been for nothing.

There's justice and then there's grandstanding motivated by a political agenda. Justice would have been served much better if the OP had first approached Athens to clarify his curiosity and then made a genuine topic if his questions weren't satisfied. I think you and I both know that was not the purpose of this. I wouldn't have qualms with Bilrow had he approached this in a genuine manner.

[Khyber]

By resolving it, you mean lowering the reps every time someone dares interferes in Athens' personal business? It's bad enough that people stopped Athens from obliterating Knights of Ni. But how dare they question when Athens is going to pay up!

May I ask what Athens did wrong? Was it attacking an alliance for tech? Was it the number? Was thier claim that their number of 40 is just as arbitrary as your number of 5, 10 or 20? Please tell me what you feel they should be paying reps for? And why you are so ademant about them having to pay those reps?

[Wilhelm the Demented]

I'm well aware we're not on a TV show...well, I suppose there could be news coverage of this, as it is an interesting political situation.

When everyone is once again afraid to speak up when they see injustice or potential injustice, then everything that "Karma" supposedly fought for when they were taking out the NPO will have been for nothing.

When people start crossing lines and kicking up dust for entertainment's sake - they undermine the the supposed "Moral Revolution" brought about by Karma as well, especially when uninformed individuals storm the discussion stating the moralist high ground instead of figuring out what the reality of the situation is.

Edit: If there is News Coverage of this, they are sure to get good ratings based on the sheer drama and lack of sense being whirred around.

Edited December 5, 2009 by wilhelm the demented

[Nintenderek]

The issue of reps has been resolved, along with your other questions. Some of us decided to call Bilrow out on his faux moral outrage, that's why some discussions concerned him.

I still fail to see what Bilrow's reasons for calling you out actually have to do with the subject at hand. How would it be any different if it was me or Jonathan Brookbank calling you out, or any other poster from this topic?

[Dochartaigh]

There's justice and then there's grandstanding motivated by a political agenda. Justice would have been served much better if the OP had first approached Athens to clarify his curiosity and then made a genuine topic if his questions weren't satisfied. I think you and I both know that was not the purpose of this. I wouldn't have qualms with Bilrow had he approached this in a genuine manner.

heh. if that was the case, then basically all those who cried out against NPO/Heg were simply grandstanding with their motivation being a political agenda. Justice would have been served much better if alliances like Sparta, MK, and Athens had first approached NPO/Q to clarify their curiosity and then made a genuine topic if their questions weren't satisfied. I think you and I both know that the Karma war was not about Justice or Changing the world for a better place (hint, tech raiding an alliance does not a better world make).

see, that approach can be done for anything and honestly, from the sounds of it, the above seems to fit just as well as what you wrote.

[Iotupa]

There's justice and then there's grandstanding motivated by a political agenda. Justice would have been served much better if the OP had first approached Athens to clarify his curiosity and then made a genuine topic if his questions weren't satisfied. I think you and I both know that was not the purpose of this. I wouldn't have qualms with Bilrow had he approached this in a genuine manner.

As I have said numerous times throughout this discussion, I also agree that Bilrow's methods may not have been the best. But if you have been around Planet Bob long enough, you know that sometimes to truly get things done, you must bring it to the general public. From the discussion here, I find it unlikely that Athens would have bothered to pay reparations at all had the information not come out that they had attacked an alliance unprovoked in the first place, so I suppose it stands to reason this was, despite the questionable motive, an overall good discussion.

When people start crossing lines and kicking up dust for entertainment's sake - they undermine the the supposed "Moral Revolution" brought about by Karma as well, especially when uninformed individuals storm the discussion stating the moralist high ground instead of figuring out what the reality of the situation is.

Edit: If there is News Coverage of this, they are sure to get good ratings based on the sheer drama and lack of sense being whirred around.

Oh, of course, I agree. That's why I stopped badgering Athens about it when my questions were answered. Faking morality should never be used solely for entertainment. And, yes, I'm sure the news is having a field day with this. When you have people coming in long after the questions have been answered only to ask them again, you can't help but get some funny clips for that night's coverage.

[Wilhelm the Demented]

Justice would have been served much better if alliances like Sparta, MK, and Athens had first approached NPO/Q to clarify their curiosity and then made a genuine topic if their questions weren't satisfied.

It's called giving them the benefit of the doubt.

Something Bilrow did not give Athens.

[Tygaland]

I didn't accuse you of saying anything, I asked questions, re read my post. Another question, you do accept that there are those who are righteously upset over the actions Athens took in this particular "tech" raid?

There are people who were appalled by the tech raid, myself included. Perhaps you can obtain passage in a time machine and go back a week and a half and join the discussion that took place back then about the rights and wrongs of raiding alliances. You know, the one that played some part in the raid being called off and Athens offering to compensate KoN!

This thread was a call out from Bilrow accusing Athens of refusing to pay the compensation. Athens countered that they were waiting for an agreed figure for that compensation before commencing payment. Something that makes sense to me.

If you are going to rage about something then at least do us all a favour and read up on the issue before commenting.

Edited December 5, 2009 by Tygaland

[Dochartaigh]

When people start crossing lines and kicking up dust for entertainment's sake - they undermine the the supposed "Moral Revolution" brought about by Karma as well, especially when uninformed individuals storm the discussion stating the moralist high ground instead of figuring out what the reality of the situation is.

Edit: If there is News Coverage of this, they are sure to get good ratings based on the sheer drama and lack of sense being whirred around.

i would think the "Moral Revolution" was undermined the moment that one of the key supporters decided to tech raid an alliance and then use "Do Something About It" type posts instead of attempting to reason it out. now i know this has already been addressed but to state that those who are curious about what is going on with the reps are simply kicking up dust for entertainment's sake is quite a blanket statement. do you have proof of this other than a few individuals?

honestly, the whole "Moral Revolution" never actually occurred. A war mostly based around vengeance happened. some alliances switched sides for survival reasons instead of going down with Heg as well. thus, it was mostly like many of the wars that already happened in CN. the fact that since NPO/Heg was taken down, we already have CBless wars occurring, might makes right attitude becoming prevalent again, and a new/old CN Meme of "Well it is not as bad as what NPO did", basically means that nothing has changed. Thus, it is essentially business as normal, this time people are a bit more vocal and there are multiple powers versus just one or two.

[Dochartaigh]

It's called giving them the benefit of the doubt.

Something Bilrow did not give Athens.

19 (or however many days in the OP) was not giving you the benefit of the doubt? i am not exactly sure how much more time would have been needed for Athens to have taken advantage of said benefit? so it does seem that Bilrow waited quite a long time before making this thread and thus, does seem to have given Athens the benefit of the doubt.

dang, i swore i was gonna avoid this thread instead of getting involved. then i had to go and make a post about the entertainment value of this thread....

[Tygaland]

i would think the "Moral Revolution" was undermined the moment that one of the key supporters decided to tech raid an alliance and then use "Do Something About It" type posts instead of attempting to reason it out. now i know this has already been addressed but to state that those who are curious about what is going on with the reps are simply kicking up dust for entertainment's sake is quite a blanket statement. do you have proof of this other than a few individuals?

honestly, the whole "Moral Revolution" never actually occurred. A war mostly based around vengeance happened. some alliances switched sides for survival reasons instead of going down with Heg as well. thus, it was mostly like many of the wars that already happened in CN. the fact that since NPO/Heg was taken down, we already have CBless wars occurring, might makes right attitude becoming prevalent again, and a new/old CN Meme of "Well it is not as bad as what NPO did", basically means that nothing has changed. Thus, it is essentially business as normal, this time people are a bit more vocal and there are multiple powers versus just one or two.

Yes, because one thief makes everyone in the village thieves, right?

Edited December 5, 2009 by Tygaland

[Wilhelm the Demented]

i would think the "Moral Revolution" was undermined the moment that one of the key supporters decided to tech raid an alliance and then use "Do Something About It" type posts instead of attempting to reason it out. now i know this has already been addressed but to state that those who are curious about what is going on with the reps are simply kicking up dust for entertainment's sake is quite a blanket statement. do you have proof of this other than a few individuals?

honestly, the whole "Moral Revolution" never actually occurred. A war mostly based around vengeance happened. some alliances switched sides for survival reasons instead of going down with Heg as well. thus, it was mostly like many of the wars that already happened in CN. the fact that since NPO/Heg was taken down, we already have CBless wars occurring, might makes right attitude becoming prevalent again, and a new/old CN Meme of "Well it is not as bad as what NPO did", basically means that nothing has changed. Thus, it is essentially business as normal, this time people are a bit more vocal and there are multiple powers versus just one or two.

I'm here to discuss this subject, and the way it was brought about and presented. Not the world climate or world motives.

As for proof of kicking up dust for entertainment - I believe this discussion, and it's originator are a perfect testament to my point.

Edit: [ooc]Just to clarify, my point is go make another thread for your theories plox[/ooc]

Edited December 5, 2009 by wilhelm the demented

[Iotupa]

i would think the "Moral Revolution" was undermined the moment that one of the key supporters decided to tech raid an alliance and then use "Do Something About It" type posts instead of attempting to reason it out. now i know this has already been addressed but to state that those who are curious about what is going on with the reps are simply kicking up dust for entertainment's sake is quite a blanket statement. do you have proof of this other than a few individuals?

honestly, the whole "Moral Revolution" never actually occurred. A war mostly based around vengeance happened. some alliances switched sides for survival reasons instead of going down with Heg as well. thus, it was mostly like many of the wars that already happened in CN. the fact that since NPO/Heg was taken down, we already have CBless wars occurring, might makes right attitude becoming prevalent again, and a new/old CN Meme of "Well it is not as bad as what NPO did", basically means that nothing has changed. Thus, it is essentially business as normal, this time people are a bit more vocal and there are multiple powers versus just one or two.

Wow. I had no idea anyone else felt like I did about the "Karma" War. I'm very pleased to see I was incorrect.

Yes, because one thief makes everyone in the village thieves, right?

It does when everyone in the village supports the thief's actions.

EDIT: It may not make them thieves, but they aren't much better if they continue to associate and allow the thief to steal.

Edited December 5, 2009 by Jonathan Brookbank

[Tygaland]

It does when everyone in the village supports the thief's actions.

Ah, so point out to me where everyone who fought on the Karma side of the war supported the Athens raid on KoN! If the entire village is going to be accused of theft then the least you can do is show me the evidence of your allegation.

[Wilhelm the Demented]

It does when everyone in the village supports the thief's actions.

EDIT: It may not make them thieves, but they aren't much better if they continue to associate and allow the thief to steal.

You must have missed the outrage the initial raid caused. This falls under my "Different Circumstances" argument.

[Iotupa]

Ah, so point out to me where everyone who fought on the Karma side of the war supported the Athens raid on KoN! If the entire village is going to be accused of theft then the least you can do is show me the evidence of your allegation.

This is most certainly not the only situation casting doubt on the motivations and questionable behavior of those formerly under the banner of "Karma." But, I suppose, as far as this situation goes, it would only apply to those who remain allied to Athens as they behave as the NPO and co. once did, so you are guilt free (in this situation) if you are not allied to them. Though you already had your day to shine the light on your own behavior, so we've already seen STA and your true selves.

You must have missed the outrage the initial raid caused. This falls under my "Different Circumstances" argument.

"Outrage" on here means nothing when alliances who claim to be outraged remain tied by treaty to the guilty party. Seeing as I did not see who was outraged in the original discussion, I suppose I can't really cast judgment, but it's possible none of their allies were outraged by this behavior, so it's possible none of them showed false outrage only to remain allied to Athens.

Edited December 5, 2009 by Jonathan Brookbank

[Trinite]

I still fail to see what Bilrow's reasons for calling you out actually have to do with the subject at hand. How would it be any different if it was me or Jonathan Brookbank calling you out, or any other poster from this topic?

I was unaware Bilrow was calling out Mathew Conrad... Mathew, did you tech raid an alliance? )):

If Jonathan Brookbank would have made this topic, I assume (giving JB a lot of credit here) it would have gone like this this

JB: Athens, wtf? No reps yet and I hear NPO is paying them

Athens: We're paying them. We're just waiting on their gov to agree on a number.

JB: Oh. Ok.

Instead we get this ridiculous farce. And when I see a farce, I will call it such. When confronted with contradictory facts Bilrow has responded with bile and BS slandering our ally. You want us to just smile and take it? Too bad.

I don't like what Athens did with Ni. They know that, but this thread has absolutely nothing to do with that, and everybody knows it.

Edit: Clearly, I didn't give JB enough credit in his spelling.

Edited December 5, 2009 by Trinite

[Dochartaigh]

Yes, because one thief makes everyone in the village thieves, right?

well, Athens and FoB for the tech raiding and the Do something bout it attitude. Then there is the whole WF fiasco with VE acting like NPO protecting GGA back in the day. not to mention the might makes right attitude there.

then there is the whole Stickmen drama with Purple that includes FoK and CnG.

then there is this thread right here.

so, with these incidents lining up left, right, and center how is there just one thief?

i love ya Tyga, but i typically don't come to an opinion like this based on one thing. it tends to be many things that add up into one conclusion.

@Wilhelm- alright, the OP is one item. do you have any proof about everyone else you claim is undermining the moral revolution? which by the way falls under world climate and world motivation, as you stated people- many of whom are from different alliances and thus, will include world climate and motivation when it comes to undermining the "Moral Revolution".

@JB- when Karma first ended, i honestly felt optimistic. over the past few months, it has gone from being optimistic to being cynical and most likely slightly jaded as the alliances i fought alongside have since begun to show that they seem to like having power and being capable of bullying others.

i still feel that there are a few alliances from the Karma war that act with honor and the ideals that the Karma war represented, though most of those few did so since the beginning of their existence.

[Iotupa]

I was unaware Bilrow was calling out Mathew Conrad... Mathew, did you tech raid an alliance? )):

If Jonathan Brookbank would have made this topic it would have gone like this this

JB: Athens, wtf? No reps yet and I here NPO is paying them

Athens: We're paying them. We're just waiting on their gov to agree on a number.

JB: Oh. Ok.

Instead we get this ridiculous farce. And when I see a farce, I will call it such. When confronted with contradictory facts Bilrow has responded with bile and !@#$%^&* slandering our ally. You want us to just smile and take it? Too bad.

I probably would have said hear, but other than that, that is remarkably similar to how this went down on my end. Well, other than the outside discussions on what justice is, whether it matters who brings up a potential injustice, etc. But that is how my discussion with Athens went, so you are correct.

It would be a lot easier and require less talking if everyone just filtered their discussion points through me, eh?