Arcturus Jefferson Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 Because the wars are tech raids by terms of combat, and because the charters of both alliances allow it, the raids are legal.Moral bawwing doesn't accomplish anything unless you're willing to do something about it. Funnily enough, Athens' charter doesn't allow raids on alliances with over 10 nations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GammaHive Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 And that's pretty much all that is to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jyrinx Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 There is an inherent flaw in introducing morals into this argument when it is more or less an issue of classification. Whether you like it or not, the debate is about how we define a tech raid. I disagree. I challenge the notion that a tech raid is different from a war. I see nothing different in the harsh terms given to MK and others after the noCB war and the attack done on the Knights who say Ni: both were forced to hand over tech and assets and both were (in my biased opinion since I call it the noCB war ^^) forced to do so in wars without a real CB. Both were also only forced to do so because they were weaker and unable to defend themselves. The only difference here is the scale, which shouldn't matter in my opinion with respect to whether or not an action is "wrong" under any moral paradigm (I'm willing to hear your case for why it should be if you'd like to make it). Athens and FoB are doing two ground attacks (or is it 4?) and then peacing out apparently. But they're still taking stuff. By force. Because they can. What's the real difference aside from scale? Why is that right under your moral paradigm? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neo Uruk Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 Funnily enough, Athens' charter doesn't allow raids on alliances with over 10 nations. This has been brought up before. Athens has been slow announcing new charters in the past, they still are now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Diorno Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 (edited) Be that as it may, I still don't see how this is classed as a tech raid. You can throw around things like "only doing ground attacks", but you still coordinated a blitz on the KoNi. To me, once you start coordinating things alliance-wide, it becomes an alliance war. Our charter defines what is a tech raid, "All raids consist of 2 ground attacks followed by a peace offer. It is acceptable to do 2 more ground attacks after update and reoffer peace if your offer has not been accepted." Which is what we have performed. This was just on a larger scale then the normal 1 nation tech raid, it is not an alliance war. Oops. Thanks for pointing it out....must be the exhaustion that comes with new twins. It's fixed now. And Pocho, I never held anyone to the standards of January 2006; reading comprehension FTW . I was simply stating that I did not know when it became acceptable to tech raid members of alliances period, or when it became dependent on how strong said alliance is or how its allies are. Athens as a sovereign entity decides what is acceptable in our own alliance. Funnily enough, Athens' charter doesn't allow raids on alliances with over 10 nations. Yes it does. EDIT: added extra quote. Edited November 14, 2009 by Jack Diorno Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chalaskan Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 This would be even funnier if thedarklordjay was known publicly, I knew that kid was trouble. Ironic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sulmar Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 It is awesome. I have been doing it wrong. I have posted a few smaller ''alliances'' on our board offering our members the opportunity to take their tech from them without consequence. I expect participation to run into about 400 nations, good times ahead. There will be no co-ordination, we will just OMFGZ RAID PM 4 PIECES and all will be good.I have chosen three alliances completely at random and I expect them to accept it is our will that their tech belongs to us. I do not care if said alliances have allies, because after all it is just a raid and apparently said allies of these said alliances have all said so right here. The fact that we may well not tech raid in the traditional way may well sit badly with some of you, but never the less it is our apparent right to raid and so forth, call it a raid and so forth and escape any kind of oversight by the wider community. I approve. I mean really, once you call it a tech raid, everything is forgiven right? In fact, I think it then becomes their fault that you attacked them. Man, tech raiding is awesome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snoman Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 I have chosen three alliances completely at random and I expect them to accept it is our will that their tech belongs to us. I do not care if said alliances have allies, because after all it is just a raid and apparently said allies of these said alliances have all said so right here.The fact that we may well not tech raid in the traditional way may well sit badly with some of you, but never the less it is our apparent right to raid and so forth, call it a raid and so forth and escape any kind of oversight by the wider community. While you have reason to call into question the image of both FoB and Athens in their conduct (though I imagine that belongs in another thread), the first point fails to define their collective actions because it is by definition extortion. No tech raid is extortion because a tech raid is an actual raid. You wouldn't call it a tech raid if war were declared, no battles were fought, and the tech was aided. Not only is that hypothetical ridiculous, but it misses the mark completely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlmightyGrub Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 Our charter defines what is a tech raid, "All raids consist of 2 ground attacks followed by a peace offer. It is acceptable to do 2 more ground attacks after update and reoffer peace if your offer has not been accepted."Which is what we have performed. This was just on a larger scale then the normal 1 nation tech raid, it is not an alliance war. Athens as a sovereign entity decides what is acceptable in our own alliance. Yes it does. EDIT: added extra quote. The New Polar Order will decide what is best for our alliance, it may well be that we chose you to be one of the three random alliances... who knows where that chocolate wheel will stop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlmightyGrub Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 While you have reason to call into question the image of both FoB and Athens in their conduct (though I imagine that belongs in another thread), the first point fails to define their collective actions because it is by definition extortion. No tech raid is extortion because a tech raid is an actual raid. You wouldn't call it a tech raid if war were declared, no battles were fought, and the tech was aided. Not only is that hypothetical ridiculous, but it misses the mark completely. Duly noted. I will decide for myself what I believe to be acceptable behaviour and what I define as extortion, but thanks for the efforts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Diorno Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 I approve. I mean really, once you call it a tech raid, everything is forgiven right? In fact, I think it then becomes their fault that you attacked them. Man, tech raiding is awesome. Knights of ni, as a sovereign entity, can do whatever they want. The New Polar Order will decide what is best for our alliance, it may well be that we chose you to be one of the three random alliances... who knows where that chocolate wheel will stop. I never denied the sovereignty of NpO to make its own choices. I am curious though, is this a threat you are making to Athens? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mushi Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 The New Polar Order will decide what is best for our alliance, it may well be that we chose you to be one of the three random alliances... who knows where that chocolate wheel will stop. when will Polar pick these 3 random alliances? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neo Uruk Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 Please let it be SLCB :3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heft Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 While you have reason to call into question the image of both FoB and Athens in their conduct (though I imagine that belongs in another thread), the first point fails to define their collective actions because it is by definition extortion. No tech raid is extortion because a tech raid is an actual raid. You wouldn't call it a tech raid if war were declared, no battles were fought, and the tech was aided. Not only is that hypothetical ridiculous, but it misses the mark completely. Actually I would argue that almost all tech raids are a form of extortion, including these. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisK Owns You Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 (edited) meh.... nvm Edited November 14, 2009 by HisK Owns You Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merrie Melodies Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 Summary:1) Athens raids some alliance with like idk, a billion members or something. 2) Everyone in the world ever hates them with the fire of a trillion suns. 3) Except that everyone else is like "raiding is cool Athens is cool everyone is uncool" 4) Everyone starts yelling with everyone else. 5) Nothing is going to happen so I sleep now goodnight. Or some of us who tire of this world could rearm and depart in a blaze of glory bound to cost more than the raids profit! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neo Uruk Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 They can't? I think they could and I hope they do. Did you catch that double negative? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddog241 Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 Actually I would argue that almost all tech raids are a form of extortion, including these. i agree with that. tech raiding in any form is forcefully extorting tech from a nation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
He Who Has No Name Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 My apologies for the late response but: I apologize; we were the second alliance do do so..... FAN did have Yellow Number Five , where they protected unalignds in yellow, as long as they were able to. My apologies, my good sirs. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snoman Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 @GammaHive A tech trade to Lost has no bearing upon a war fought by Athens or FoB, particularly when the whole bloc is not involved. What in the world are you trying to say? You lost me at, "I classify bloc and alliance ties improperly". I disagree. I challenge the notion that a tech raid is different from a war. I see nothing different in the harsh terms given to MK and others after the noCB war and the attack done on the Knights who say Ni: both were forced to hand over tech and assets and both were (in my biased opinion since I call it the noCB war ^^) forced to do so in wars without a real CB. Both were also only forced to do so because they were weaker and unable to defend themselves.The only difference here is the scale, which shouldn't matter in my opinion with respect to whether or not an action is "wrong" under any moral paradigm (I'm willing to hear your case for why it should be if you'd like to make it). Athens and FoB are doing two ground attacks (or is it 4?) and then peacing out apparently. But they're still taking stuff. By force. Because they can. What's the real difference aside from scale? Why is that right under your moral paradigm? While I see where you're coming from in the first paragraph, the difference between then and now is that MK did in fact negotiate those terms. We had actual diplomatic surrendering. Was it fair? A different discussion to be honest. Does it equivocate the two? No, we understand both are not fair events, but I wouldn't compare them. That's hardly fair to KoNi seeing as it's a rather large example to live up to. You are right though, to mention that it might not be exclusive two ground attacks. However as I'm sure you know, quad attacking when no peace is accepted (but no retaliation either) is standard raiding. Not everyone would do it, but it is still an acceptable precedent in the vast majority of charters (including the parties mentioned). That said, I don't believe that is the subject of the debate. The "might makes right" discussion is for another thread, but I wouldn't mind digressing about my own opinion in that matter. I would be personally upset if this were treated like an actual war. If every member available from both alliances tripled each defending nation and used full weaponry (likely short of nukes of course), then yes of course it's worthy of scorn. At that point, there's a tremendous amount of damage being done, and likely no ability to defend. A simple tech raid is a pain in the $@!, but is over in a day and rebuilding doesn't have to be a long process. A full war is nothing like that. Personally (and independent of my logic in other posts and in the above paragraphs), I think this should be a lesson in political strategy for all small alliances. Never tough it out on your own if you don't have the sacs to beat off a tech raid. I find that I agree with you more than I disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kroknia Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 In this circumstance, I really think TDO, GC and GPA should counter attack Athens and FoB. They have effectively shown that to attack an old and established alliance is a justifiable action to make with no cause. To protect their right to be neutral the offending alliances clearly needs to be taught a lesson in force. I think any tech raid on any alliance is a terrible thing. I supported IS's right to attack CG, because frankly, CG had given them a CB and that was the only reason they were targeted for the attacks. I can't imagine Ni! has made any such offenses with my dealing with them in the past. For Athens and FoB: http://www.cybernations.net/allNations_dis...=Grey%20Council these guys only have 25 members. They look ripe to raid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisK Owns You Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 Did you catch that double negative? Hahahaha wow... my bad... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neo Uruk Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 (edited) So is Ronin just an alliance for people who love MK but hate the rest of CnG and want to distance themselves? Hahahaha wow... my bad... no problem. We all make mistakes. Edited November 14, 2009 by Unavailable Contact Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petrovich4 Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 This was just on a larger scale then the normal 1 nation tech raid, it is not an alliance war. Their future mobilization might say otherwise - you'll know soon enough. I hope you didn't bite off more then you can chew Jack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisK Owns You Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 So is Ronin just an alliance for people who love MK but hate the rest of CnG and want to distance themselves? Yes we love MK but hate the rest of CnG... Oh wait we are allied with =LOST=. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts