Overrated Alliance Government

[Doitzel]

In my three-and-a-half years here, I have never seen so many 'dastardly deeds' attributed to a single individual who never wielded the kind of absolute authority outsiders seem to think he possessed.

Something I enjoyed parodying for quite some time. I think my sig on the old forums still claims credit for driving him from the game or summat.

[TehChron]

Something I enjoyed parodying for quite some time. I think my sig on the old forums still claims credit for driving him from the game or summat.

Remember the night WUT was announced?

Good times.

[Cornelius]

Also, VE, though still far from half. At any rate, as Grub said, there is no possible meaning that can be extracted from whether or not an alliance canceled on Polar and later fought for or against Karma because the lines were redrawn so many times from the period of June 2008 - April 2009.

I'd just like to point out that the VE was the first to drop Polar prior to the WotC (a month before actually) and for reasons entirely unrelated to the incident that eventually sparked the war. I could provide any clarification from the incident if asked.

[Doitzel]

Remember the night WUT was announced?

Good times.

Oh man I forgot about that. Man we were cruel! That was awesome. Good times indeed.

[TehChron]

Oh man I forgot about that. Man we were cruel! That was awesome. Good times indeed.

Edit #2: Stuff with Philo and shenans.

Edit: Awesome smilie is

Edited October 7, 2009 by Chron

[Fallen Fool]

I'd just like to point out that the VE was the first to drop Polar prior to the WotC (a month before actually) and for reasons entirely unrelated to the incident that eventually sparked the war. I could provide any clarification from the incident if asked.

Right.

You guys jumped ship at the same time as TPF, IRON, GGA, and all the other would-be oppressors of the Hegemony.

[AlmightyGrub]

I'd just like to point out that the VE was the first to drop Polar prior to the WotC (a month before actually) and for reasons entirely unrelated to the incident that eventually sparked the war. I could provide any clarification from the incident if asked.

I'd like to point out that attempting to ambush any Emperor of the New Polar Order with a band of motivated cronies and unrelated entities will result in a similar response. You were in their pocket, they were in your ambush room and Sponge, whilst abrupt, gave you a response similar to what I would even in my most calm and sensible mood. Rest assured, the current Emperor of Polaris despises you (VE) in particular and will continue to do so until you apologize for being a Class-A !@#$% and acknowledge that your deliberate provocation of Sponge led to his somewhat inappropriate response to you. You attempting to gain some mileage by bringing it up now confirms my opinion.

Also hello.

Edited October 8, 2009 by AlmightyGrub

[Lord Brendan]

Grub, if tomorrow UPN decided it wanted to kill Genesis over a relatively minor incident and didn't consult you or attempt diplomacy before attacking, what would your response be as an ally to both?

[Nintenderek]

Also hello.

I'm not sure why this made me laugh so hard, but it did. Congratulations good sir. I'm not going to say anything about the rest of the post because I don't know much about that particular incident involving VE.

[Fallen Fool]

Grub, if tomorrow UPN decided it wanted to kill Genesis over a relatively minor incident and didn't consult you or attempt diplomacy before attacking, what would your response be as an ally to both?

If the leader of Genesis was running around with his nick set as UPN's MoD while UPN was at war and having massive forum troubles, which necessitated more vital information exchange over IRC, then I'd say that someone should cut UPN a break. Especially if they've been nothing but a pillar of support for us for months. Edited October 8, 2009 by Fallen_Fool

[Ephriam Grey]

Preemptive strike: VE members below parliament, please refrain from shooting your mouth off at NpO or otherwise causing me to facepalm.

[AlmightyGrub]

Grub, if tomorrow UPN decided it wanted to kill Genesis over a relatively minor incident and didn't consult you or attempt diplomacy before attacking, what would your response be as an ally to both?

Well, being close friends with both parties I would probably not drag someone into a room full of people totally unrelated to the incident and start making demands in pompous and arrogant fashion. I would also be well aware of the personality of the people involved and talk to them in a friendly manner.

And to say this was about that particular matter is guilding the lily by a considerable margin.

[Lord Brendan]

Depends on the CB.

If the leader of Genesis was running around with his nick set as UPN's MoD while UPN was at war and having massive forum troubles, which necessitated more vital information exchange over IRC, then I'd say that someone should cut UPN a break. Especially if they've been nothing but a pillar of support for us for months.

Can we drop the analogy and debate the situation directly?

There was no urgent need for Polar to attack FIST. There was no malicious intent behind the impersonation (I seem to recall even Polar acknowledged that). The "war" you were fighting was 16 versus 1, even if some "vital information" was somehow leaked, there was no risk to your security.

Basically, you had the luxury of time and there was no valid reason for moving to war so quickly against a MADP partner of a MADP partner. It could just as easily gone over as a slap on the wrist for Starcraftmaster without forcing an ally into such a horrible position that it's technically obligated to declare war on itself and two of its allies.

edit @ Grub: I don't know enough about the specifics of that conversation to comment. What I do know is that the New Polar Order (who held a MADP with VE) declared war on FIST (who held a MADP with VE) within "some hours" of a rather small incident. That alone, as far as I'm concerned, is enough justification for VE to seriously reconsider its treaty with NpO.

Edited October 8, 2009 by Lord Brendan

[AlmightyGrub]

Can we drop the analogy and debate the situation directly?

There was no urgent need for Polar to attack FIST. There was no malicious intent behind the impersonation (I seem to recall even Polar acknowledged that). The "war" you were fighting was 16 versus 1, even if some "vital information" was somehow leaked, there was no risk to your security.

Basically, you had the luxury of time and there was no valid reason for moving to war so quickly against a MADP partner of a MADP partner. It could just as easily gone over as a slap on the wrist for Starcraftmaster without forcing an ally into such a horrible position that it's technically obligated to declare war on itself and two of its allies.

edit @ Grub: I don't know enough about the specifics of that conversation to comment. What I do know is that the New Polar Order (who held a MADP with VE) declared war on FIST (who held a MADP with VE) within "some hours" of a rather small incident. That alone, as far as I'm concerned, is enough justification for VE to seriously reconsider its treaty with NpO.

There is zero argument there. FIST was a ''Sponge gone mad moment'' and one that he should have left me to handle one on one with SCM who until that time was a good friend and former alliance mate. That war caused me to have to change my in-game flag and I still resent having to do so

Ardus dealt with Sponge in an extremely arrogant manner and Sponge responded in kind. If you want a reaction, you know which buttons to push, therefore pushing them makes you complicit in the reaction.

[Heft]

I honestly can't remember, had VE already canceled before that "ambush?" Sponge's reaction was what allowed us to push all the cancelations, but VE may have already canceled over some previous incident, no? Which was part of why Ardus and co were so shy about confronting him?

edit: Right. The "ambush" incident that led to everyone else canceling was over.....something. Not FIST, it was after FIST.

Edited October 8, 2009 by Heft

[AlmightyGrub]

I honestly can't remember, had VE already canceled before that "ambush?" Sponge's reaction was what allowed us to push all the cancelations, but VE may have already canceled over some previous incident, no? Which was part of why Ardus and co were so shy about confronting him?

edit: Right. The "ambush" incident that led to everyone else canceling was over.....something. Not FIST, it was after FIST.

CZ spying

[Xiphosis]

edit: Right. The "ambush" incident that led to everyone else canceling was over.....something. Not FIST, it was after FIST.

As I understood it, Chickenzilla posted his VE forum login details on NpO. He had some former member's mask that gave him better than diplomatic access. VE found out, etc etc.

[Heft]

CZ spying

As I understood it, Chickenzilla posted his VE forum login details on NpO. He had some former member's mask that gave him better than diplomatic access. VE found out, etc etc.

Yea that. To be fair I didn't really care at the time, and CZ managed to cause more incidents those few months than make any amount of sense so I wasn't sure. I was just there to see if I could poke Sponge some, and the rest were there just cause we were asked and like "sure whatever." The ambush was more about Ardus being overly cautious or shy than us actually deliberately setting Sponge up.

[AlmightyGrub]

Yea that. To be fair I didn't really care at the time, and CZ managed to cause more incidents those few months than make any amount of sense so I wasn't sure. I was just there to see if I could poke Sponge some, and the rest were there just cause we were asked and like "sure whatever." The ambush was more about Ardus being overly cautious or shy than us actually deliberately setting Sponge up.

Whilst that may be true, perceptions have a funny way of changing the reaction. The notion of an alliance leader needing backup of that nature is more indicative of the pathetic way diplomacy was conducted in that era. Ganging up on people to intimidate them was far too commonplace. It is one of the things I hope to see never return to Bob.

Edited October 8, 2009 by AlmightyGrub

[Ephriam Grey]

Neither Sponge nor Ardus conducted themselves admirably in the CZ situation. Ardus was my mentor and friend, and he still is, but I was around at the time, I read the logs, and I can tell you both men did not act as maturely as they could have.

[Lord Brendan]

Going back to the original point (which itself was a bit of a tangent), do we all agree that VE was at least reasonably justified in canceling on Polar and as such can be excluded from the list of those who just dropped them just because they sensed war was coming?

Edited October 8, 2009 by Lord Brendan

[Heft]

Whilst that may be true, perceptions have a funny way of changing the reaction. The notion of an alliance leader needing backup of that nature is more indicative of the pathetic way diplomacy was conducted in that era. Ganging up on people to intimidate them was far too commonplace. It is one of the things I hope to see never return to Bob.

I agree fully. Though even that was sometimes just a by-product of "me too" syndrome were everyone believed they were important and wanted to be included and everyone had 5000 allies they needed to consult before doing anything "major" so you'd end up with rooms with two guys trying to talk over a constant stream of random mid-level gov members of some tertiary alliance joining the room.

But yes the intimidation happened as well, much too often. The easiest antidote is to just not get intimidated. It's entertaining to be dumped into those sorts of situations now, I think.

[AlmightyGrub]

Going back to the original point (which itself was a bit of a tangent), do we all agree that VE was at least reasonably justified in canceling on Polar and as such can be excluded from the list of those who just dropped them just because they sensed war was coming?

Does it matter? You were just one of dozens, not matter what your reasoning, you were all sheep being led by the master shepherd at the time whether you want to acknowledge it or not. Ardus and Sponge could have sorted it out, both were far too arrogant in the situation.

[Lord Brendan]

Does it matter? You were just one of dozens, not matter what your reasoning, you were all sheep being led by the master shepherd at the time whether you want to acknowledge it or not. Ardus and Sponge could have sorted it out, both were far too arrogant in the situation.

"You"? I was under surrender terms (signed by yourself) at the time these events took place.

[Penkala]

Right.

You guys jumped ship at the same time as TPF, IRON, GGA, and all the other would-be oppressors of the Hegemony.

And by jump ship, you mean canceled on you after you put them in an impossible position by declaring on their MDP partner. You guys made mistakes, they made mistakes. You made the mistake that caused them to do what they felt they had to, though, so saying they 'jumped ship' is laughable.

Edited October 8, 2009 by Penkala