Apology

[zzzptm]

I don't think it's terribly productive to continue this little tête-à-tête we have going here, comrade. If you'd like to hit me up on IRC, I'd be happy to discuss the matter with you. I am "Cortath" and can be found in both your public channel (#polaris) and mine (#nsa). For the record, I will correct you, in that my "first response to this accusation" was that there was one post I had seen, not "zero."

What about the rest of us that would like the "little tête-à-tête" to continue in order to see if NPO will own up to what it's done? This has serious implications for NPO's future among the community of nations. If NPO is, even in the wake of its defeat in the Karma War, still engaging in the very sort of activities that led to its diplomatic isolation and defeat, then one must argue in favor of keeping NPO as isolated as it is now. One would further conclude that, while members of NPO may themselves not be evil, the institution of that alliance is a collective evil, which as a corporate body cannot know remorse or change its ways.

Yes, it still has friends, but many stand and watch those friends, wondering when they shall be consumed in the next phase of NPO's plans. Francoism, in general, is not a threat to Planeta Roberto. Pacifican Francoism, specifically, is. It promotes the Big Lie, as we see here, and feigns friendship in order to line up more victims to manipulate.

Come clean with something more genuine than "well, what do you want me to say?" or "we need to take this private" or some spew of Pacifican propaganda. We've seen behind the smoke and mirrors and targeted it with bombers and cruise missiles. Please, quit giving the world more smoke and mirrors because we're just going to assume something rotten is going on behind them. No, we won't know the specifics, but we don't need proof any more. We know Pacifica as a corporate entity is a sociopathic machine capable of any lie or any crime to sustain itself. The burden of proof, therefore, is on Pacifica to demonstrate it is something other than what we know it to be.

[Cortath]

Tough luck, kiddo. I'm not going to lie to suit your image of what Pacifica is. I've owned up and described what happened and how many times it happened (once). Go fish.

[WorldConqueror]

Oh also, with the whole Karma thing... when it was obvious SethB accepted screenshots, a lot of people had more or less said "welp, gg OV". It was really the timing of NPO's attack which brought Karma together, not the innocence of SethB.

Hmm. IIRC, we wouldn't have declared if OV and their support cast had accepted ZI for sethb, 2 weeks of war for him, or even one week. So you may not have believed he was innocent, but you certainly acted like he was. Karma's steadfast support and unwillingness to see sethb punished is what lead to the declaration.

[kriekfreak]

Hmm. IIRC, we wouldn't have declared if OV and their support cast had accepted ZI for sethb, 2 weeks of war for him, or even one week. So you may not have believed he was innocent, but you certainly acted like he was. Karma's steadfast support and unwillingness to see sethb punished is what lead to the declaration.

We probably would have if you would have done the same for mhawk.

[WorldConqueror]

We probably would have if you would have done the same for mhawk.

Probably? Were you trying to refute my point, or agree with it?

[kriekfreak]

Probably? Were you trying to refute my point, or agree with it?

I can't say for sure since your side was no where near seriously considering this option.

[WorldConqueror]

I can't say for sure since your side was no where near seriously considering this option.

As Karma didn't for sethb.

[kriekfreak]

As Karma didn't for sethb.

You can believe me or not, but we did seriously consider this.

[jerdge]

<snip>

You did nothing other than hope no one found out. Something that would have incurred the wrath of the NPO had someone done the same to you.

NPO's handling of this was utterly disgraceful and I really commend Grub for his leniency and patience with an alliance that even now, according to your words, acknowledged no negligence on their part other than a "lol whoops!" which would never have cut it with you. I certainly hope that if any future issues like this arise that the NPO handles the situation in a manner that they demanded of others when the shoe is on the other foot.

I respect you Tygaland, but the emphasis you put on how the NPO used to deal with such occasions is what later drew James Wilson to think that you were "contradicting yourself" (actually: what you were saying that should have been the NPO's "standards" seemed in conflict with the alleged purpose of the Karma War - blah blah - and I know that it wasn't, incidentally.)

Considering the (superfluous?) lenghty exchange of opinions you two then had everybody (IMHO) should, for the sake of clarity, criticize Pacifica's behaviour in light of what they consider to be the (absolute) "correct" standards; comparing Pacifica's behaviour to the standards they used to apply will continue to make us run in circles about "the change expected after the Karma War", "the more civil policies we have struggled for", etc - even when they're not actually connected to the topic at hand (like in this case).

All of this will eventually harm any legitimate struggle for a really different world thus please, if you don't mind, think and talk like the Pacifican Era has ended. It has!

Fake edit: I am not sure that I can understand all these accusations and requests of explanation to the NPO, anyway. Polaris decided to accept their version of the events, and to not push the issue any further. As a friend of Polaris I have no problem to accept their will (over a matter that is their own, anyway); Considering the opinion Grub expressed on this matter I am even more confident in thinking that Pacifica deserves to be trusted over it.

[Matthew Conrad]

Hmm. IIRC, we wouldn't have declared if OV and their support cast had accepted ZI for sethb, 2 weeks of war for him, or even one week. So you may not have believed he was innocent, but you certainly acted like he was. Karma's steadfast support and unwillingness to see sethb punished is what lead to the declaration.

Once again and to place further emphasis on the point, there was a compromise in which sethb and mhawk (or his source if he chose to reveal it) would be punished. Some of us didn't think it fair NPO hold others to a different standard.

[Joe Izuzu]

I have posted on this topic before and it pains me to have to post on it again, but here goes.

There is absolutely no difference between SethB and Ursarker. Both were willing, premeditated spies. In the logs that were released, the conversation between SethB and Demeanor referred to "I got that screenie for you about NPO increasing warchest", which indicates that the screen shots were the subject of an earlier conversation. It was not a case of some unknown third party coming up and giving unsolicited information. Clearly, Demeanor had approached SethB on at least one prior occasion, offered to acquire confidential NPO information and SethB agreed to the spy op. Or it may be that SethB was the one that initiated the discussion. Either way, SethB was as much of an active participant as Demeanor. I get so tired of otherwise intelligent people continuing to spout inane drivel about SethB being less of a spy because he was not the field operative. The control for a spy operation is as much a spy as the insertion agent. End of story.

I also reject the argument that the AA of the field operative has any definitive bearing on the innocence or guilt of the Alliance receiving the information. Whether the receiving alliance uses its own member as the field operative, or uses a member of a different alliance, the intent is the same. What is relevant is whether the spy operation can be shown to have been actively solicited by the receiving alliance. In the case of SethB and OV, they were clearly active participants in the espionage since SethB acted in a willful, premediated fashion. It would also seem clear that OV as a whole approved of the action, since as a reward for his criminal activity, SethB was eventually made the Emperor of OV. Apparently crime does pay in some alliances.

For those who believe that spies never act solely for themselves, regardless of what the underlying motivation may be, I need only point to Greenacres. Remember him?

For what it is worth, I am disgusted with Ursarker's behavior, just as I was disgusted by SethB's. I am also vastly disappointed in my government's handling of the matter and its failure to notify Polaris immediately upon receipt of the information. Emperor Cortath has acknowledged this as an indefensible error and I hope that signals an intent on the part of our government to conduct itself more scrupulously in the future.

Also for what it is worth, I fully support Polaris' right to punish Ursarker in whatever way it deems appropriate.

[Bob Janova]

I'm really not getting into that again. Suffice to say that the only people who believe in the same interpretation of the Sethb situation as you are flying the black and blue as well. The war was fought and won largely because the world did not agree – spying is pretty much universally seen as a valid CB and nobody (except possibly you) believed that you had that.

[Joe Izuzu]

Actually, that is not true, Bob. There have been many people from other alliances that have posted agreeing that Seth was guilty of spying. The justification used by Karma was not that SethB didn't spy, but that NPO attacked while negotiations were still proceeding and that we were guilty of the same offense due to our acceptance of the incriminating logs from Mhawk, therefore invalidating the CB.

(edited for grammar)

Edited October 7, 2009 by Joe Izuzu

[WildThing]

Thinking that what sethb did was not the same as what Ursarkar did (as Grub pointed out nicely), and thinking sethb was a moron for what he did are not mutually exclusive. The attacking during negotiations was only what turned the alliances on the fence against you.

You're trying to find contradictions where there are none.

[Tygaland]

I respect you Tygaland, but the emphasis you put on how the NPO used to deal with such occasions is what later drew James Wilson to think that you were "contradicting yourself" (actually: what you were saying that should have been the NPO's "standards" seemed in conflict with the alleged purpose of the Karma War - blah blah - and I know that it wasn't, incidentally.)

Considering the (superfluous?) lenghty exchange of opinions you two then had everybody (IMHO) should, for the sake of clarity, criticize Pacifica's behaviour in light of what they consider to be the (absolute) "correct" standards; comparing Pacifica's behaviour to the standards they used to apply will continue to make us run in circles about "the change expected after the Karma War", "the more civil policies we have struggled for", etc - even when they're not actually connected to the topic at hand (like in this case).

All of this will eventually harm any legitimate struggle for a really different world thus please, if you don't mind, think and talk like the Pacifican Era has ended. It has!

Fake edit: I am not sure that I can understand all these accusations and requests of explanation to the NPO, anyway. Polaris decided to accept their version of the events, and to not push the issue any further. As a friend of Polaris I have no problem to accept their will (over a matter that is their own, anyway); Considering the opinion Grub expressed on this matter I am even more confident in thinking that Pacifica deserves to be trusted over it.

I don't think you have understood what I was saying. When the NPO discovered someone from another alliance had accessed their private forum without consent and passed that information on to their alliance or third parties they took this as a serious issue. Now, with the role reversed they did nothing when Ursarkar started feeding them info from the NpO forum. They did not inform Polar, they left the gate open and according to Zhadum it was not a one off leak but a continued trickle of information from the Polar boards. You don't find it a double standard that an alliance that was so vehemently protective of their private forum turned a blind eye to one of their own members lifting information from the Polar forum? The only reason they have owned up to the minimal extent they have is because Zhadum spilled the beans confirming Polar's suspicions.

Do not mistake Grub's lenient and merciful response as a reduction in the severity of what the NPO did here. The fact that Grub and the NpO worked out a solution to this issue that did not involve war (well, until Ursarkar couldn't keep his mouth shut anyway) is a credit to the NpO, not the NPO and does not make the actions of the NPO any less negligent.

I was not calling for war as a response, I was calling for the NPO to show some genuine remorse for its negligent actions rather than arrogant posturing and dismissive statements. For an alliance claiming to have changed culture this was a perfect opportunity to show evidence of that change and they botched it.

Edited October 8, 2009 by Tygaland

[Tygaland]

Actually, that is not true, Bob. There have been many people from other alliances that have posted agreeing that Seth was guilty of spying. The justification used by Karma was not that SethB didn't spy, but that NPO attacked while negotiations were still proceeding and that we were guilty of the same offense due to our acceptance of the incriminating logs from Mhawk, therefore invalidating the CB.

(edited for grammar)

Sethb received a screenshot froma third party. Ursarkar was accessing the NpO forum directly and lifting the screenshot. If you want to compare Ursarkar to anyone, you'll need to compare him to the guy from Blackstone that gave Sethb the screenshot. If you want to compare anyone to Sethb, then you would have to equate him to the NPO who received the screenshots and did not inform Polar. What makes this episode worse, in my opinion, is the fact that the supplier of the spied information and the recipients were all in the same alliance, the NPO.

[Ursarkar E Creed]

I screenshotted nothing.

[Arwen]

I screenshotted nothing.

So what information did you submit? Were you mad at the NpO at the time? Were you trying to impress the leadership of NPO by sharing this information?

[Ursarkar E Creed]

Post Snippets, No and No.

[Joe Izuzu]

Sethb solicited received a screenshot from a hired spy third party. Ursarkar was accessing the NpO forum directly and lifting the screenshot. If you want to compare Ursarkar to anyone, you'll need to compare him to the guy from Blackstone that gave Sethb the screenshot. If you want to compare anyone to Sethb, then you would have to equate him to the NPO who received the screenshots and did not inform Polar. What makes this episode worse, in my opinion, is the fact that the supplier of the spied information and the recipients were all in the same alliance, the NPO.

Fixed the inaccurate statement for you. Yes, I would compare Ursarker to Demeanor. And yes, as I stated, it is hugely embarrassing for the NPO that Ursarker would conduct himself that way. As I also said, it is deeply disappointing that NPO gov didn't immediately communicate the fact of the crime as soon as it became known. So I agree with the bulk of your post. Where I differ is that I would have to compare Sethb with a conspirator to commit a crime. In a conspiracy, both of the parties are equally guilty. Both Sethb and Demeanor were equally guilty of spying. I realize that it continues to serve your purpose to try to downplay Sethb's involvement, but your obtuse refusal to acknowledge what is clear from the transcript is both transparent and predictable.

[WildThing]

Hired? lol..

Blackstone were a joke of a spying group and I'm pretty sure they were giving screenshots to any alliance that would take them seriously at the time. Everyone already knew who the Blackstone leaders were because they spent all day in IRC talking themselves up and posting links to their youtube videos. They just wanted attention and to be able to claim they took down the NPO.

[bkphysics]

Fixed the inaccurate statement for you. Yes, I would compare Ursarker to Demeanor. And yes, as I stated, it is hugely embarrassing for the NPO that Ursarker would conduct himself that way. As I also said, it is deeply disappointing that NPO gov didn't immediately communicate the fact of the crime as soon as it became known. So I agree with the bulk of your post. Where I differ is that I would have to compare Sethb with a conspirator to commit a crime. In a conspiracy, both of the parties are equally guilty. Both Sethb and Demeanor were equally guilty of spying. I realize that it continues to serve your purpose to try to downplay Sethb's involvement, but your obtuse refusal to acknowledge what is clear from the transcript is both transparent and predictable.

In your comparison of Sethb to a conspirator to a crime, you might want to be careful as using the logic that he willingly accepted the information and didn't divulge any of the activities to the NPO would likewise paint the NPO as a conspirator to the crime Ursarker committed. I mean, they didn't exactly sound the alarm and tell the NpO what was going on.

[Tygaland]

In your comparison of Sethb to a conspirator to a crime, you might want to be careful as using the logic that he willingly accepted the information and didn't divulge any of the activities to the NPO would likewise paint the NPO as a conspirator to the crime Ursarker committed. I mean, they didn't exactly sound the alarm and tell the NpO what was going on.

Ah, someone gets the point that scorched over Joe's head as he took another sip of the Kool Aid.

[Tygaland]

Fixed the inaccurate statement for you. Yes, I would compare Ursarker to Demeanor. And yes, as I stated, it is hugely embarrassing for the NPO that Ursarker would conduct himself that way. As I also said, it is deeply disappointing that NPO gov didn't immediately communicate the fact of the crime as soon as it became known. So I agree with the bulk of your post. Where I differ is that I would have to compare Sethb with a conspirator to commit a crime. In a conspiracy, both of the parties are equally guilty. Both Sethb and Demeanor were equally guilty of spying. I realize that it continues to serve your purpose to try to downplay Sethb's involvement, but your obtuse refusal to acknowledge what is clear from the transcript is both transparent and predictable.

I have no interests in downplaying Sethb's involvement in anything. The fact of the matter is that Sethb did not take screenshots or "post snippets" directly from NPO's forum. Blackstone did and offered them to Sethb who accepted them. Compare this with Ursarkar taking "post snippets" directly from the NpO forum and offering them to members of the NPO who accepted them and the comparisons I made are quite clear and factual.

Seeing as you have nothing to actually counter what I said other than cast erroneous aspersions over my motivation for pointing out what, to me, is a fairly obvious comparison, I assume you have nothing of substance to offer to the discussion.

[WorldConqueror]

In your comparison of Sethb to a conspirator to a crime, you might want to be careful as using the logic that he willingly accepted the information and didn't divulge any of the activities to the NPO would likewise paint the NPO as a conspirator to the crime Ursarker committed. I mean, they didn't exactly sound the alarm and tell the NpO what was going on.

I think Joe was pointing out the difference that Sethb was aware of and encouraging the spying beforehand, whereas NPO was not. Not that that absolves us of blame, but it is an important point.