Subtleknifewielder Posted September 25, 2009 Report Share Posted September 25, 2009 They refused an order to turn around after making it perfectly clear they intended to violate our airspace. It is usually a good idea in warfare to destroy threats before they can cause major damage, and that is what was done. "They were not violating your airspace, they made their intentions perfectly clear. You had no reason to shoot them down...unless you intend to invade Texas yourself." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sargun II Posted September 25, 2009 Report Share Posted September 25, 2009 "They were not violating your airspace, they made their intentions perfectly clear. You had no reason to shoot them down...unless you intend to invade Texas yourself." "Yes - their intentions were to fly armed bombers over Tahoan territory. They said so themselves. That's a good enough reason to shoot anything down." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amyante Posted September 25, 2009 Report Share Posted September 25, 2009 "We feel the need to point out that a nation's airspace would start a good number of miles off the coastline. Unless the bombers were flying at least Mach 4 they could still have been taken down after violating Tahoean-protected airspace and well before they reached land. Zargathia therefore considers the Dragons' casus belli as justified, and their decision to initiate peace talks commendable." "Again, we do not challenge Tahoe, nor their right to defend their land, airspace and strategic assets. But the undeniable fact is that their military opened fire on the military of another sovereign nation for violating airspace it had no say over, being international. Hence, all claims of having done so in defense simply do not apply, as the area where the air battle had taken place in was one not subject to Tahoean laws. This would mean that the Tahoean aircraft had no authority whatsoever to order anything, plain and simple. The fact that said planes were in the area on the request of Texas does not help Tahoe's case much either." "We admit both parties have made mistakes in this conflict, but at the core of the matter, we have no choice but to see Tahoe as the aggressor in this conflict, and will honor our double MDP with the Dragon Empire. Having said that, we nevertheless hope this conflict can indeed be solved diplomatically, and urge Tahoe to agree to a meeting with the Dragons." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king of cochin Posted September 25, 2009 Report Share Posted September 25, 2009 "Yes - their intentions were to fly armed bombers over Tahoan territory. They said so themselves. That's a good enough reason to shoot anything down." "Our intentions were never to fly over Tahoan territory. We had planned to fly over the unclaimed protectorate region in Mexico avoiding Tahoan air space. Carthage should decipher between propaganda and fact before making such grave accusations. The attack on our air units was totally uncalled for." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarah Tintagyl Posted September 25, 2009 Report Share Posted September 25, 2009 "Our intentions were never to fly over Tahoan territory. We had planned to fly over the unclaimed protectorate region in Mexico avoiding Tahoan air space. Carthage should decipher between propaganda and fact before making such grave accusations. The attack on our air units was totally uncalled for." "Unclaimed protectorate? That makes no sense, if its a protectorate then it is definitely claimed and it should be protectorate by the state offering protection of the territory. There is no such thing as an unclaimed protectorate, its either a claimed and administered or white territory on a map." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justinian the Mighty Posted September 25, 2009 Report Share Posted September 25, 2009 "And just why not? It happens to be true." Because we said so. Your point has nothing to with the comments made by the Slavorussian government, and therefore you have no need to remind us of anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Centurius Posted September 25, 2009 Report Share Posted September 25, 2009 "Our intentions were never to fly over Tahoan territory. We had planned to fly over the unclaimed protectorate region in Mexico avoiding Tahoan air space. Carthage should decipher between propaganda and fact before making such grave accusations. The attack on our air units was totally uncalled for." The Protectorate was claimed by Tahoe and as such an extension of Tahoan Air Space in regards to military matters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Keshav IV Posted September 25, 2009 Report Share Posted September 25, 2009 "And note, any military air craft flying over our air space is a direct declaration of war from the PRC." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subtleknifewielder Posted September 25, 2009 Report Share Posted September 25, 2009 "Unclaimed protectorate? That makes no sense, if its a protectorate then it is definitely claimed and it should be protectorate by the state offering protection of the territory. There is no such thing as an unclaimed protectorate, its either a claimed and administered or white territory on a map." "Incorrect. Protectorates are protected until a stable government can be formed there. They do not truly belong to the ones protecting it." Because we said so. Your point has nothing to with the comments made by the Slavorussian government, and therefore you have no need to remind us of anything. We asked why we could not remind the WORLD. We named no specific nation. And it is very much relevant, as this had nothing to do with the Dragon empire's policies, except an attempt to help out a friend. The Protectorate was claimed by Tahoe and as such an extension of Tahoan Air Space in regards to military matters. Regardless, as Zargathia has pointed out, airspace does not begin over the land, but some distance out into the ocean--and therefore, the airspace of the protectorate could have been violated before they were a credible threat. The point is, Tahoe fired on the aircraft in international airspace, long before they could have ever been considered ANY threat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JEDCJT Posted September 25, 2009 Report Share Posted September 25, 2009 (edited) "The Dragon Empire's, and Promised Land's as well, logic has so much holes than Swiss cheese that it is not funny. First the Dragon Empire claim to send their armed bombers to Texas through what they incorrectly stated was 'unclaimed protectorate' in Mexico, when in fact it was a Tahoan protectorate and has been for a long time. The Tahoe Republic warned that it would tolerate no foreign intervention in North America, and yet the Dragon Empire, an Asian nation and thus a foreign nation, foolishly meddled anyways and reaped the consequences for it. The Tahoans gave them a warning. A warning, one that the Dragon Empire disregarded. Secondly, when they were fired upon, because they disregarded Tahoe's warning, they immediately fled like cowards with their tails between their legs to the Holy Imperium. In short, this war was the Dragon Empire's fault and it is appropriate that they reaped what they sowed." Edited September 25, 2009 by JEDCJT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Centurius Posted September 25, 2009 Report Share Posted September 25, 2009 "The Dragon Empire's, and Promised Land's as well, logic has so much holes than Swiss cheese that it is not funny. First the Dragon Empire claim to send their armed bombers to Texas through what they incorrectly stated was 'unclaimed protectorate' in Mexico, when in fact it was a Tahoan protectorate and has been for a long time. The Tahoe Republic warned that it would tolerate no foreign intervention in North America, and yet the Dragon Empire, an Asian nation and thus a foreign nation, foolishly meddled anyways and reaped the consequences for it. The Tahoans gave them a warning. A warning, one that the Dragon Empire disregarded. Secondly, when they were fired upon, because they disregarded Tahoe's warning, they immediately fled like cowards with their tails between their legs to the Holy Imperium. In short, this war was the Dragon Empire's fault and it is appropriate that they reaped what they sowed." We hope another party saying it makes them understand it. Though we fear your effords will prove to be ineffective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subtleknifewielder Posted September 25, 2009 Report Share Posted September 25, 2009 "The Dragon Empire's, and Promised Land's as well, logic has so much holes than Swiss cheese that it is not funny. First the Dragon Empire claim to send their armed bombers to Texas through what they incorrectly stated was 'unclaimed protectorate' in Mexico, when in fact it was a Tahoan protectorate and has been for a long time. The Tahoe Republic warned that it would tolerate no foreign intervention in North America, and yet the Dragon Empire, an Asian nation and thus a foreign nation, foolishly meddled anyways and reaped the consequences for it. The Tahoans gave them a warning. A warning, one that the Dragon Empire disregarded. Secondly, when they were fired upon, because they disregarded Tahoe's warning, they immediately fled like cowards with their tails between their legs to the Holy Imperium. In short, this war was the Dragon Empire's fault and it is appropriate that they reaped what they sowed." "Your own logic is full of as many holes as you accuse ours of having. They were not given enough time to consider the warning...which was given in international airspace. They believed they were going to be heading over unclaimed land (land which they never even reached sight of), and if the situation had been properly explained to them, they would have simply turned and headed through their own ally's airspace instead. Tahoe blatantly shot them down in airspace they had no jurisdiction over." "They turned away because they were confronted with force they had not expected--they were not a sizeable force inand of themselves. And please poiint out how bombers can defend against fighters." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amyante Posted September 25, 2009 Report Share Posted September 25, 2009 "The Dragon Empire's, and Promised Land's as well, logic has so much holes than Swiss cheese that it is not funny. First the Dragon Empire claim to send their armed bombers to Texas through what they incorrectly stated was 'unclaimed protectorate' in Mexico, when in fact it was a Tahoan protectorate and has been for a long time. The Tahoe Republic warned that it would tolerate no foreign intervention in North America, and yet the Dragon Empire, an Asian nation and thus a foreign nation, foolishly meddled anyways and reaped the consequences for it. The Tahoans gave them a warning. A warning, one that the Dragon Empire disregarded. Secondly, when they were fired upon, because they disregarded Tahoe's warning, they immediately fled like cowards with their tails between their legs to the Holy Imperium. In short, this war was the Dragon Empire's fault and it is appropriate that they reaped what they sowed." "While the points mentioned here are mostly true, we wish to once again point out that Tahoean airspace was never violated. Had the bombers of the Dragon Empire actually entered Tahoean airspace then we would have been the last to claim the Tahoeans would have been the aggressors. The facts however are that the air battle took place outside of Tahoean airspace, where Tahoe has about as much authority as Zargathia does on the North Pole. It seems some nations seem to consistently ignore this rather important fact while pointing at the Dragons and their villeinish supporters." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarah Tintagyl Posted September 25, 2009 Report Share Posted September 25, 2009 "Incorrect. Protectorates are protected until a stable government can be formed there. They do not truly belong to the ones protecting it." "Then please tell me what prevents anarchy from happening in those zones? What keeps people administered? They are protected and therefore are the responsibility of such nation. Whether it is sovereign territory of Tahoe's or not, it is still protected by Tahoe and therefore Tahoan Law is enforced, if the Tahoans told the Dragons to turn back, warning that they would be shot at, and the Dragons did not do so they are free game. Also, I find it hilarious to think that an ASIAN nation has any business whatsoever in garrisoning troops in NORTH AMERICAN territory, besides eventual expansion of influence. Call be cynical, but I believe diplomats would have been the better choice here besides bombers. As a note, I find it extremely funny, that the Mexican Confederacy is being so hostile to the Dragons when they originally wanted their help. But I guess that's what comes with capitalist greed, the bigger fish always wins, not always who is right." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Centurius Posted September 25, 2009 Report Share Posted September 25, 2009 "Your own logic is full of as many holes as you accuse ours of having. They were not given enough time to consider the warning...which was given in international airspace. They believed they were going to be heading over unclaimed land (land which they never even reached sight of), and if the situation had been properly explained to them, they would have simply turned and headed through their own ally's airspace instead. Tahoe blatantly shot them down in airspace they had no jurisdiction over.""They turned away because they were confronted with force they had not expected--they were not a sizeable force inand of themselves. And please poiint out how bombers can defend against fighters." They were given warning years in advance, it has never been a secret Tahoe and others with them keep foreign Military of the American continents. Not to forget it was again reaffirmed weeks ago that Tahoe would not allow non-American powers. Obvious from the warnign given to your own ships. "While the points mentioned here are mostly true, we wish to once again point out that Tahoean airspace was never violated. Had the bombers of the Dragon Empire actually entered Tahoean airspace then we would have been the last to claim the Tahoeans would have been the aggressors. The facts however are that the air battle took place outside of Tahoean airspace, where Tahoe has about as much authority as Zargathia does on the North Pole. It seems some nations seem to consistently ignore this rather important fact while pointing at the Dragons and their villeinish supporters." There are no set laws in regards to this, Tahoe considered it their right to take out a force before it was in range to attack. Tahoe has warned parties to not get involved the Dragon Empire chose to ignore this and thus forced Tahoe to carry out their policies. You would have done the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subtleknifewielder Posted September 25, 2009 Report Share Posted September 25, 2009 "Then please tell me what prevents anarchy from happening in those zones? What keeps people administered? They are protected and therefore are the responsibility of such nation. Whether it is sovereign territory of Tahoe's or not, it is still protected by Tahoe and therefore Tahoan Law is enforced, if the Tahoans told the Dragons to turn back, warning that they would be shot at, and the Dragons did not do so they are free game. Also, I find it hilarious to think that an ASIAN nation has any business whatsoever in garrisoning troops in NORTH AMERICAN territory, besides eventual expansion of influence. Call be cynical, but I believe diplomats would have been the better choice here besides bombers. As a note, I find it extremely funny, that the Mexican Confederacy is being so hostile to the Dragons when they originally wanted their help. But I guess that's what comes with capitalist greed, the bigger fish always wins, not always who is right." "Your point about the Mexicans is noted. At least you are unbiased in your accusations. We ask, though, what the point would have been for the Dragons to threaten a protectorate anyway--which, incidently, they did not. Like the Zargathians, however, we do find ourselves a bit incredulous that everyone is ignoring the fact that the planes in question were NOT in the airspace of the protectorate, nor were they yet near entering it." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subtleknifewielder Posted September 25, 2009 Report Share Posted September 25, 2009 There are no set laws in regards to this, Tahoe considered it their right to take out a force before it was in range to attack. Tahoe has warned parties to not get involved the Dragon Empire chose to ignore this and thus forced Tahoe to carry out their policies. You would have done the same. "No, they would not. they would wait until it was clear beyond a shadow of a doubt that the planes in question were intending on violating their airspace. Do not presume to know how another nation would react in a similar situation." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarah Tintagyl Posted September 25, 2009 Report Share Posted September 25, 2009 "Your point about the Mexicans is noted. At least you are unbiased in your accusations. We ask, though, what the point would have been for the Dragons to threaten a protectorate anyway--which, incidently, they did not. Like the Zargathians, however, we do find ourselves a bit incredulous that everyone is ignoring the fact that the planes in question were NOT in the airspace of the protectorate, nor were they yet near entering it." "If the planes weren't en route to begin with, this would have never happened. You see the beauties in keeping Asian politics in Asia and North American politics in North America." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subtleknifewielder Posted September 25, 2009 Report Share Posted September 25, 2009 "If the planes weren't en route to begin with, this would have never happened. You see the beauties in keeping Asian politics in Asia and North American politics in North America." "this was not about politics. This was about one nation intending to help a friend." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amyante Posted September 25, 2009 Report Share Posted September 25, 2009 There are no set laws in regards to this, Tahoe considered it their right to take out a force before it was in range to attack. Tahoe has warned parties to not get involved the Dragon Empire chose to ignore this and thus forced Tahoe to carry out their policies. You would have done the same. "Actually, Zargathia would have waited until our airspace would have been violated, as we hold a policy of keeping ourselves to the same standards we judge others by. And to be honest, if every nation in the world started firing on anything that might possibly be considered a threat at an undisclosed point in the future... then the world would have burned to a cinder decades ago." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Verteidiger Posted September 25, 2009 Report Share Posted September 25, 2009 "this was not about politics. This was about one nation intending to help a friend." They must have a truly deep affection with this country if they announce support for their enemy only prior to their change of heart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subtleknifewielder Posted September 25, 2009 Report Share Posted September 25, 2009 They must have a truly deep affection with this country if they announce support for their enemy only prior to their change of heart. "Please clarify your statement. Are you trying to say they announced support for Texas before withdrawing their approval of your bid for power?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Centurius Posted September 25, 2009 Report Share Posted September 25, 2009 The Imperial Union has come to the conclusion further contact with Promised Land is futile. All links are broken. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subtleknifewielder Posted September 25, 2009 Report Share Posted September 25, 2009 The Imperial Union has come to the conclusion further contact with Promised Land is futile. All links are broken. This would not be considered a great loss, as it was deemed the Imperial Union had been going downhill for sime time in its policies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Verteidiger Posted September 25, 2009 Report Share Posted September 25, 2009 "Please clarify your statement. Are you trying to say they announced support for Texas before withdrawing their approval of your bid for power?" We do not see how the Dragon Empire could see the Commonwealth as a friend (we define friend as a country whom who've had good relations with for a while) when they announced support for the Reich when the Reich was clearly an enemy to the Commonwealth. What kind of friend who support one's enemy, even if only temporarily? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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