Popcorn war; Sakura's perspective

[Sakura]

Sakura's version of events leading up to and during the war that (I believe) HeinousOne dubbed the "Popcorn War". (Times are in PDT -- add two hours to get Server time)

T-2 days (before the first IS nation DoW)

Plans were discussed about raiding CG (amounted to "12 member AA, no protector, no treaties, lets raid 'em".

Everyone: Sure, I'm bored anyway.

T-24 hours

Target lists assigned.

21:50 (right before and after update.)

IS nations raid CG, with about half of CG's nations ending up in anarchy in the initial assault. (Yes, CG nations were quadded, and yes CMs, planes, etc, were used, this isn't about that -- okay?)

22:40ish, TC decides to give CG an 'emergency protectorate', applying only to IS.

23:00ish, CG's FA guy approaches KX asking for peace, a white peace is agreed upon. This ends the (tech/land/punitive) raid.

04:00ish

One of the two CG members I fought attacked me (remember, my perspective?)

04:30ish

Francesca comes into IS's channel asking for gov, and queries me.

A little later:

Francesca decides to extort money from IS, and makes the (by now) infamous ultimatum on the OWF. I watch the train wreck of a (OOC)thread (/OOC) repeatedly throughout the day. Preferring not to put in my two cents, as everyone seems to love to put a twist to my words, to infer that I said something bloody absurd.

About 20:30: KX comes online, and 'negotiations' with Francesca/CG start.

20:32-21:00: Francesca repeatedly demands 150 million, and when asked for actual damages by both KX and Jason8 (the latter mediated that 'negotiation'), she kept dodging the issue.

21:00-22:00: Francesca "lowers" her demand back to the initial 105 million. (Keep in mind, to my knowledge, no IS nation had attacked CG since the white peace at this point), Francesca and HellScream still keep dodging the issue of actual damage done.

22:00 CG declares war on IS.

22:01 deSouza fires the first nuke in the Popcorn War, at King Najibbles.

22:07-22:30: Nukes fly from IS's arsenal (note: IS hadn't launched any nukes before CG declared war on IS.)

22:30-00:00 (Second day of the "Popcorn War")

KX and Francesca reopen negotiations, this time with Doitzel mediating.

00:00 (roughly):

Francesca leaves the negotiation table, leaving HellScream, who promises a cease-fire "until Fran gets back" (IMO, that is no cease-fire, because (OOC) game mechanics (/OOC) make it warfare. Especially seeing as I'm pretty sure that IS used up all their land, air, and nuclear attacks right after the DoW by CG).

02:19 Francesca declares war on me (during the cease-fire (remember the point above?))

04:03 nickkayboy nukes Sakura (again, during a cease-fire).

Presumably this was all during negotiations -- which means that CG was engaging in hostile acts *during* negotiations.

Anyway, after the cease-fire was negotiated a *second* time, (one white peace, two cease-fires, if you're keeping score) deSouza spies away one of Punkman's nukes.

Also, I note how everyone was going on and on about how "IS was violating their own charter", and yet little/no comment was made about CG violating theirs. Moreover;

a. To maintain the rights of individual nation tech raiding will be permitted under strict guidelines.

Note the word 'individual'. This section wasn't relevant to the discussion in the first place.

Lastly, in Francesca's ultimatum to IS, she quoted a *partial* log of her conversation with me, so without further adieu, the full, unedited, and unabridged log:

(04:37:20 AM) Francesca: Hello.

(04:37:25 AM) Francesca: Do you have a moment?

(04:37:36 AM) Sakura: Possibly.

(04:38:21 AM) Francesca[CG]: In your co-ordinated attacks on Crimson Guard, cruise missile attacks and bomber strikes were used, as well as spy attacks on our nukes.

(04:38:45 AM) Francesca[CG]: IS stated that this was a co-ordinated tech raid..... the above strategies are not employed in tech raids.

(04:38:52 AM) Francesca[CG]: Could you please clarify, then, why they were used?

(04:39:11 AM) Sakura: You've never seen me tech raid, have you?

(04:39:23 AM) Francesca[CG]: I've not paid much attention to you or your alliance before.

(04:39:38 AM) Francesca[CG]: But cruise missile and bomber strikes do not gain you tech.

(04:39:42 AM) Francesca[CG]: And are not used in raids.

(04:40:15 AM) Sakura: Bombers and CMs *do* take out tanks, and cause shrinkage in nations with larger populations.

(04:40:25 AM) Francesca[CG]: Irrelevant.

(04:40:44 AM) Francesca[CG]: They are not used for the purposes of gaining tech, which is the idea behind a tech raid.

(04:41:03 AM) Sakura: Do you think I did this for tech?

(04:41:26 AM) Sakura: When, in one day I might get 20~25 depending on outcome of two wars?

(04:41:28 AM) Francesca[CG]: So you concede that this was not a tech raid. Thank you, that's all I need.

(04:41:34 AM) Sakura: No.

(04:41:42 AM) Sakura: It was a *land* raid.

(04:42:01 AM) Francesca[CG]: You claimed beforehand that it was a tech raid.

(04:42:23 AM) Francesca[CG]: Do you want logs?

(04:42:26 AM) Sakura: This is the first I've spoken to you -- so therefore that statement is false.

(04:42:39 AM) Francesca[CG]: I am talking about IS's government as a whole.

(04:43:09 AM) Sakura: And, in any case, I might point out that we have offered peace....

(04:43:28 AM) Sakura: Although some of your members appear to have decided to forgo that....

(04:43:32 AM) Francesca[CG]: I choose not to accept peace, and I wish to request reps.

(04:43:52 AM) Francesca[CG]: This was an aggressive attack on my alliance.

(04:44:01 AM) Sakura: Alliance?

(04:44:07 AM) Francesca[CG]: Correct.

(04:44:18 AM) Francesca[CG]: Would you like a link to our DoE?

(04:44:24 AM) Sakura: How many members do you have?

(04:44:40 AM) Sakura: And did you have a protectorate at the time our attacks were launched?

(04:44:49 AM) Francesca[CG]: No.

(04:45:03 AM) Francesca[CG]: That does not rule out the possibility of our friends in NSO counter-attacking you.

(04:45:12 AM) Sakura: <15 members and no protector=not an alliance.

(04:45:13 AM) Francesca[CG]: The Second Moldavi Doctrine permits this.

(04:45:38 AM) Sakura: Permits != requires.

(04:45:53 AM) Francesca[CG]: <Sakura> <15 members and no protector=not an alliance. <-- Not according to standard CN convention.

(04:46:01 AM) Francesca[CG]: Besides, we had more members before. They just left.

(04:46:28 AM) Sakura: Peak members is irrelevant.

(04:46:41 AM) Francesca[CG]: We are also recognised as an alliance on the Red Dawn unity treaty.

(04:46:57 AM) Francesca[CG]: the CN community recognised us as such at that point.

[rudekker]

If I remember, the first nuke was launched from zigbigabalskajghadlg, who was a rogue flying the IS AA.

[Sakura]

Zig was ghosting IS. Not a 'rogue'.

[The Reccesion]

If I remember, the first nuke was launched from zigbigabalskajghadlg, who was a rogue flying the IS AA.

That same rogue so happened to attack a TC member threatening to nuke which he did. I'm assuming trying to start a global war.

[The Reccesion]

Zig was ghosting IS. Not a 'rogue'.

What he did is considered rogue actions..

[extraduty]

That same rogue so happened to attack a TC member threatening to nuke which he did. I'm assuming trying to start a global war.

FYI, that same rogue nuked a member of IS and is sanctioned via our request

Edited August 28, 2009 by extraduty

[The Reccesion]

FWI, that same rogue nuked a member of IS and is sanctioned via our request

That is IS business, I don't know what you guys do. I was pointing out what had happened to a TC member.

[Sonata]

04:44:49 AM) Francesca[CG]: No.

(04:45:03 AM) Francesca[CG]: That does not rule out the possibility of our friends in NSO counter-attacking you.

(04:45:12 AM) Sakura: <15 members and no protector=not an alliance.

(04:45:13 AM) Francesca[CG]: The Second Moldavi Doctrine permits this.

Our friends? We should teach Francesca not to speak for us.

[King Xander the Only]

For the uninitiated, Sakura is no longer a member of IS, and she speaks for herself. IS has no official comment on this, uh, commentary.

[Smacky]

This pretty much seals Fran as the worst alliance leader in recent history. Anyone who followed her should be ashamed.

[HeinousOne]

The most important part of this timeline is missing. That be the time in which HeinousOne dubbed the war the "Popcorn War". Surely that is important stuff as you spoke of it in your opening line!

Good luck figuring that out though.

[Sakura]

The most important part of this timeline is missing. That be the time in which HeinousOne dubbed the war the "Popcorn War". Surely that is important stuff as you spoke of it in your opening line!

Good luck figuring that out though.

I couldn't remember that -- and didn't feel like trudging through that train wreck to find it.

[Augustus Autumn]

Outside of damaging Francesca's reputation and/or perceived public image, what is the intent here? (I'm asking since I think I'm missing the point).

[King Xander the Only]

Outside of damaging Francesca's reputation and/or perceived public image, what is the intent here? (I'm asking since I think I'm missing the point).

To exhibit her side of the story, I would assume.

[Augustus Autumn]

To exhibit her side of the story, I would assume.

I'd missed the clarification that this was not an official communication on behalf of Internet Superheroes, my apologies (OOC: stupid mobile device doesn't permit rapid posting).

[Francesca]

Sakura's version of events leading up to and during the war that (I believe) HeinousOne dubbed the "Popcorn War". (Times are in PDT -- add two hours to get Server time)

T-2 days (before the first IS nation DoW)

Plans were discussed about raiding CG (amounted to "12 member AA, no protector, no treaties, lets raid 'em".

Everyone: Sure, I'm bored anyway.

T-24 hours

Target lists assigned.

21:50 (right before and after update.)

IS nations raid CG, with about half of CG's nations ending up in anarchy in the initial assault. (Yes, CG nations were quadded, and yes CMs, planes, etc, were used, this isn't about that -- okay?)

I think that's relevant, myself.

22:40ish, TC decides to give CG an 'emergency protectorate', applying only to IS.

23:00ish, CG's FA guy approaches KX asking for peace, a white peace is agreed upon. This ends the (tech/land/punitive) raid.

Wrong timing. The protectorate came later. Plus, we didn't approach you asking for white peace. You offered it to us so that you could walk off with our tech. The person who gave it to you did so without consulting me or the regent, and had no authority to grant you white peace. I vetoed the idea as soon as I got onto IRC and discovered this entire mess.

04:00ish

One of the two CG members I fought attacked me (remember, my perspective?)

04:30ish

Francesca comes into IS's channel asking for gov, and queries me.

A little later:

Francesca decides to extort money from IS, and makes the (by now) infamous ultimatum on the OWF. I watch the train wreck of a (OOC)thread (/OOC) repeatedly throughout the day. Preferring not to put in my two cents, as everyone seems to love to put a twist to my words, to infer that I said something bloody absurd.

Loaded language here.... "extort" meaning "requests reparations", "infamous" meaning "the ultimatum that everyone hailed because we didn't allow you to walk over us" etc etc.

[Francesca]

About 20:30: KX comes online, and 'negotiations' with Francesca/CG start.

20:32-21:00: Francesca repeatedly demands 150 million, and when asked for actual damages by both KX and Jason8 (the latter mediated that 'negotiation'), she kept dodging the issue.

I merely stated that I didn't have the figures, because I was using my computer from school.

21:00-22:00: Francesca "lowers" her demand back to the initial 105 million. (Keep in mind, to my knowledge, no IS nation had attacked CG since the white peace at this point), Francesca and HellScream still keep dodging the issue of actual damage done.

22:00 CG declares war on IS.

Or rather, you had already attacked us en masse using techniques that were not used in standard tech raids, which could be considered war.

22:01 deSouza fires the first nuke in the Popcorn War, at King Najibbles.

Zigbigadorlou did that.

22:07-22:30: Nukes fly from IS's arsenal (note: IS hadn't launched any nukes before CG declared war on IS.)

22:30-00:00 (Second day of the "Popcorn War")

KX and Francesca reopen negotiations, this time with Doitzel mediating.

00:00 (roughly):

Francesca leaves the negotiation table, leaving HellScream, who promises a cease-fire "until Fran gets back" (IMO, that is no cease-fire, because (OOC) game mechanics (/OOC) make it warfare. Especially seeing as I'm pretty sure that IS used up all their land, air, and nuclear attacks right after the DoW by CG).

That's correct. I'd been awake for around 35 hours, I believe. I'm not superhuman, I do need sleep.

02:19 Francesca declares war on me (during the cease-fire (remember the point above?))

I returned after a short break, and had not been informed of the ceasefire. Regardless, the ceasefire was only until I returned. And by attacking you, I had obviously returned.

04:03 nickkayboy nukes Sakura (again, during a cease-fire).

Yeah, because I'd come back by that stage, as this record indicates.

Presumably this was all during negotiations -- which means that CG was engaging in hostile acts *during* negotiations.

Anyway, after the cease-fire was negotiated a *second* time, (one white peace, two cease-fires, if you're keeping score) deSouza spies away one of Punkman's nukes.

Also, I note how everyone was going on and on about how "IS was violating their own charter", and yet little/no comment was made about CG violating theirs. Moreover;

Where did we do that?

Note the word 'individual'. This section wasn't relevant to the discussion in the first place.

Lastly, in Francesca's ultimatum to IS, she quoted a *partial* log of her conversation with me, so without further adieu, the full, unedited, and unabridged log:

I don't see what you're trying to achieve with that log.

Our friends? We should teach Francesca not to speak for us.

I said it didn't rule out the possibility. I didn't state your decision on whether to help us or not, for at that time there was no decision made.

[Sakura]

Wrong timing. The protectorate came later. Plus, we didn't approach you asking for white peace. You offered it to us so that you could walk off with our tech. The person who gave it to you did so without consulting me or the regent, and had no authority to grant you white peace. I vetoed the idea as soon as I got onto IRC and discovered this entire mess.

I didn't bother checking logs, hence the 'ish'. And Sup4l33t3ki11a did approach IS for peace. The peace was granted, end of story as far as I was concerned.

Loaded language here.... "extort" meaning "requests reparations", "infamous" meaning "the ultimatum that everyone hailed because we didn't allow you to walk over us" etc etc.

extort v.t To obtain (money, etc.) from a person by violence, threat, oppression, or abuse of authority; wring; wrest.

I believe that explains the usage of the word 'extort' quite nicely.

I merely stated that I didn't have the figures, because I was using my computer from school.

I would have had the actual figures ready.

Or rather, you had already attacked us en masse using techniques that were not used in standard tech raids, which could be considered war.

I see you latched on to the word 'tech', and ignored the word 'punitive'.

Zigbigadorlou did that.

As I already said, Zig was ghosting IS at the time. He was even attacking Tron Paul, and KX asked for, and got Zig sanctioned on black. That doesn't sound like how IS would treat one of their members. So, Zig aside, deSouza launched the first nuke. Not IS.

That's correct. I'd been awake for around 35 hours, I believe. I'm not superhuman, I do need sleep.

35 hours awake, and two asleep.... Am I the only one seeing a problem with this?

I returned after a short break, and had not been informed of the ceasefire. Regardless, the ceasefire was only until I returned. And by attacking you, I had obviously returned.

So.... You sleep for two hours, come back, attack Sakura, then find out that HellScream had granted a cease-fire 'until Fran returned'. And, as I said in the initial post, that doesn't sound like anything I'd call a 'cease-fire'.

Where did we do that?

When your member(s) first approached IS for peace. -.-

I don't see what you're trying to achieve with that log.

And I don't see what you were attempting to achieve when you first dumped it. If you're going to dump a log of me, at least have the courtesy to talk to me in a public channel.

[hizzy]

(04:45:12 AM) Sakura: <15 members and no protector=not an alliance.

i liked the part where you fell off my "people who may have something intelligent to say" list

[Thorgrum]

Sakura's version of events leading up to and during the war that (I believe) HeinousOne dubbed the "Popcorn War". (Times are in PDT -- add two hours to get Server time)

(amounted to "12 member AA, no protector, no treaties, lets raid 'em".

21:50 (right before and after update.)

IS nations raid CG, with about half of CG's nations ending up in anarchy in the initial assault. (Yes, CG nations were quadded, and yes CMs, planes, etc, were used, this isn't about that -- okay?)

Also, I note how everyone was going on and on about how "IS was violating their own charter", and yet little/no comment was made about CG violating theirs. Moreover;

Note the word 'individual'. This section wasn't relevant to the discussion in the first place.

They were quadded and cms planes were used, but it isnt about that.... but it is because you threw in at the end a qualifier (bolded). The charter also states tech raiding rules, 2 grounds and peace, but from your own words we know that the very action in the begining, the offensive was a violation of thier own charter.

So by holding onto the notion that this was a raid (your words), if we believe your version the entire alliance chose to violate thier own charter?

It would have been much more refreshing to see something like this:

"we decided to have some fun because we were bored and were going to roll this alliance, they fought back and out played us politically which ended with us paying them reps."

Humility is a rare trait, it would have been nice to see though. Xander has it correct, might be best to let this episode fade away but Im up for more lulz. please post more

[Glen MoP]

Reading the OP informs me that IS launched a premeditated war against another alliance because they looked small and weak and hoped they could get away with it if it proved unpopular by calling it a "tech raid."

Frankly, I don't care if you call it a tech raid or a pajama party, whether you launch one ground attack or quad with CM's and Aircraft; if your alliance organizes an attack on another alliance, you have declared war on them.

IS launched a war against CG, not only without ANY justification but also without the common decency to make a declaration of war. Quit whining that you got hammered for it. You got off very easy with only a few days of war and not paying even half your reps*.

[flak attack]

People seem to be forgetting that CG accepted Banned Member. That's a valid CB on anyone in my opinion.

[ChairmanHal]

Bored or not, raid should have never happened. Francesca was well known to be mouthy and willing to make public spectacles. It's not enough note that the target is small and without allies. You have to look at the individual nations and what level of OWRP involvement they have.

Even if you decided to go for it, you should have pre-consulted with allies, perhaps even sent in a couple people in advance to see how they would react. Set it up right and you could have even made it look like CG over reacted to a simple raid and you were merely responding.

Simply put, you got the tables turned on you and lost control of the situation. Meanwhile, key members of CG walked away from the alliance with a wad of cash and screwed both you and their alliance mates.

Lesson learned I hope.

[rudekker]

People seem to be forgetting that CG accepted Banned Member. That's a valid CB on anyone in my opinion.

Are you referring to Baseballer? Because he came to Invicta, and was deleted, weeks before this. Or am I wrong?

Also, it's been said that zigbigwhatever was a ghost who also nuked IS nations. But I'd say that if you're nuked by anyone flying an AA, especially one that there's already tensions with, you're going to think that your're being nuked by that alliance and probably aren't going to gather a whole lot of intelligence about him/her.

[King Xander the Only]

Are you referring to Baseballer? Because he came to Invicta, and was deleted, weeks before this. Or am I wrong?

You're wrong.

Also, it's been said that zigbigwhatever was a ghost who also nuked IS nations. But I'd say that if you're nuked by anyone flying an AA, especially one that there's already tensions with, you're going to think that your're being nuked by that alliance and probably aren't going to gather a whole lot of intelligence about him/her.

Then I can imagine you can see why he thought it'd be a good idea to ghost our AA. Zig isn't an idiot; he knows how to cause trouble when the opportunity presents itself.