NPO History Discussion

[Doitzel]

This is all evidence that Valhalla was involved in the CB for the GPA war. Which I've said. They were the ones who were ticked about Swampy.

I think you've confused NPO with NPO's allies once again. If you were to say this stuff about Valhalla - particularly under noWedge, but to a lesser extent since - you'd find some support here. But the reality is, NPO has made mistakes supporting their allies when they shouldn't have.

I can agree with this. The reason NPO was seen as the main target was because it was their military and political strength that brought these alliances together and enabled them to act in such a manner. Without big brother Pacific to back him up noWedge would've been akin to CN's Kim Jong-il.

[Petrovich4]

No, no they weren't. The incidents were not fabricated. You can say that you may not have declared war over them, but the incidents happened. Chris Kaos was the one responsible for GATO being such a thorn in Pacifica's side at least since the GPW. It was a surrender term that he not be allowed back. He was, and the surrender was revoked.

The FAN war was absolutely justified, and the reasons for it should be so well known that I shouldn't have to repeat them. But I will if I have to.

ONOS was spying on us. They paid the price, like many before them.

And GPA was a combination of government incompetence, provocation of Pacifica, and violating the DoN.

So maybe you would not have declared war. But we were certainly justified in doing so.

ONOS

Let me break it down for you once (bold part). Da Choice (the ONOS member who spied on our forums and gave you information) first joined NPO. Then he went to WTF, and finally ONOS where he rose up the ranks due to merit. When he first came he had posted a couple threads with an NPO nation building guide. Once the leader of ONOS saw this (the day of) he quickly put it in the recycling bin where only 4 people had access to it and it was quickly forgotten becuse we had much better guides (we had the 2nd highest avg nation strength at the time - right after TOP, prior to GW3). About 5 months later, it was used as one of the pieces of 'evidence' to isolate and roll us all within the same day.

The google spying documents was a joke. One sunny, post League day, in the green field of white bunnies, a GPA member created a post. This post said that GPA should match NPO in nuke count (post GW3). We heard about it on public irc and tucked it away, amused and intrigued at the info. Suffice it to say, as far as we knew at the time, nothing concrete came from that post by a GPA general member (this was one of the items 'blacked out' when NPO released their evidence and possibly used against GPA during NPO's anti GPA buildup).

On cloudier days after that, we (ONOS and NADC) continued to receive info/screenshots about each of our alliances being targetted for war/curbstomping. These were real, legitimate scares for us because the contents of the information about wanting to kill us came from some of the highest members of the core of WUT signatories. Being good and scared little boys, we passed on the screenshots and info back to WUT essentially saying 'fix your spy problem cuz we don't want nothing to do with it'.

All the 'spying info' that could be found on these google documents came from the above information. So, one pleasant night, Da Choice, one of the top 4 in ONOS, decided to press that magical 'prnt screen' button on the keyboard and aim it at everything he could find and slant against ONOS. He quickly went to NPO - his former home - quickly got amnesty, and passed the internal ONOS screenies along. NPO got us kicked from GUARD and IRON dropped its O/MDP. It was brutally fast. This all happened within 24 hrs.

Connect the dots.

_________________________________________________________________________

Why did we pass the WUT screenies along? (related to OP)

ONOS wanted to 'impress' NPO with our consideration for their well being (i.e. we wanted to kiss their gluts so we could survive). ONOS was on the verge of simultanuously dropping GUARD (NADC incompetence) and signing an overt MDP with IRON and one with NPO. We were getting subtle and not so subtle hints from both parties to sign overt MDPs. Lets just say the political landscape would have changed that summer in '07 if ONOS was given a chance to explain itself. Unfortunately, we had no shot in hell due to CN's political landscape at the time. Fortunately, many of us scattered to the four corners of CN where we currently reside.

P.S. On a side note, it's good to see that WorldConqueror and NPO are wanting Revanche. I'll see you at the fireworks in 2010. B)

P.P.S. I like my version better Rafa Baby

[Rafael Nadal]

I can agree with this. The reason NPO was seen as the main target was because it was their military and political strength that brought these alliances together and enabled them to act in such a manner. Without big brother Pacific to back him up noWedge would've been akin to CN's Kim Jong-il.

Short and asian? >_>

I also agree with it. Many grievances, because there aren't enough with just NPO alone, come back to NPO through their enabling of their allies, such as Valhalla.

[WorldConqueror]

Is it hard for you to write this stuff? I'm not an expert on the other situations, so I avoided arguing them, as it seems you should as well, but either you are a damned fool or somehow believe you can never admit NPO fabricated CB's against alliances to give themselves a somewhat legitimate reason to go after them. Of course, if you believe the latter, you're also a damned fool, so damned if you do damned if you don't, I guess.

Do you remember who they spy was in ONOS? I do. It was a ruler named Da Choice. Wrote all of our guides, was a very high ranking gov't member. Had his own offsite spy documents in google docs iirc, since the others in gov't above him wouldn't sanction his attempts to run an intelligence gathering program. I believe Da Choice's position was the #3 ranking officer at the time. So then all of a sudden one day we get contacted that we're in possession of stolen NPO guides (laughable really, since by that time most alliances' guides were all relatively similar; it was far enough into the game that most big secrets to growth had already become common knowledge). I don't recall how much in reps NPO wanted, but it was something absurd, ridiculously high, on the pretense of "all the advantages we gained from them over such a long period of time". A cynic might even muse that NPO put the price on their guides so high in order to ensure that we scoffed at the reps amount (the main difference in how people play now and back then is the availability of cash assets. Cash didn't float around or get horded in warchests back then. Warchests were what you could save in the 3 days to a week before a war started.) Regardless, I won't claim that, because you're going to argue that claim, and quite frankly, that claim is not important to the overall situation.

Moving on, NPO declared war on us. How many rounds of war did Da Choice receive? A GRAND TOTAL OF ZERO ROUNDS OF WAR? ZERO YOU ASK? HOW COULD THAT POSSIBLY BE?! Well it's pretty simple. Da Choice was accepted into NPO, right before we were declared on. Yes, that's right. The person in ONOS who was accused of spying on NPO, the very reason given for declaring on us, was given refuge in NPO.

Please, conveniently simplify away this one. BTW, I was decently high and involved in gov't in ONOS, nothing top 3, but I was decently in the loop there, and I also happen to have the long time #2 in my current alliance, so it's hard to bs me on this situation.

This CB came around not because ONOS was a threat to Pacifica, we were getting big, but nowhere near Pacifica's size, but because we were a potential future threat to Pacifica. We had our own group of tight nit allies, with relatively few to no ties to Pacifica's own concentration of allies. However, GUARD was growing, and was lead by ONOS and NADC. As a side note, this situation pretty much showcased the others in GUARD, especially NADC, to be !@#$%*es. Back to the reasoning though. GUARD was growing and was mainly lead by ONOS, who you could say it looked like had actual ambitions to be a real political player in the world. And since GUARD was pretty much completely independent of NPO, and most of CN actually, as we were an independent bloc, we were seen as opposing NPO; posing a possible future threat to their dominance, and it would be better to take us out at that time, instead of waiting for us to get even larger and possibly gain more GUARD members.

Especially looking back now, it's clear as day that the rest of GUARD was simply not up to the par ONOS was, nor did they all want to be what ONOS wanted to be. When we at ONOS asked GUARD to get their nuke stockpiles up, because we figured with our growth and independent nature from NPO's circle, our number would eventually come up, and it did. And the others in GUARD didn't improve their nuke stockpiles one bit, and actually nobody fought on our behalf. GUARD sucked horribly, plain and simple, there's no sugar coating it. It was a great bloc, with horrible constituents. EmperorCharles, the leader of NADC, was a complete idiot who thought he could somehow use his relations with NPO to get us out of this situation, lol. It was actually really funny to watch NADC get rolled later on, in the same manner that it was incredibly hilarious to watch Legion get rolled in GW3. Actually, Legion after GW2 and leading up to GW3 was quite similar in thinking to the rest of GUARD signatories, which is to conclude, their overall policy was idiotic.

And also, for what it's worth, a few of us at ONOS had started enacting a plan to first strike nuke all nuke capable nations of WUT. We knew our day would come, and it would be better for us to just say damn the pr, and first strike nuke any and all WUT nations in range of being nuked. That was our only chance of securing any sort of victory or stalemate. Of course, as I've said, our allies in GUARD were !@#$%*, and naive, and blind, and thought they could reason there way out of anything. They also justified everything to themselves that they weren't a potential threat to NPO, because they didn't have any ambition to do anything other than exist really. They either didn't understand, or didn't want to admit, that their very existence, in the manner they existed, put themselves at odds with NPO.

You ask me if it's hard to write the such I do, and then come out with a post like that? I'm sure there's others that could rip nice big holes in it, but I'll give it a go. First of all, our guides are our property. Doesn't matter if you already have the information, or if the guides are completely wrong, or what. They are ours, you took them, we punish you.

Next, you admit you weren't high government in ONOS, but you somehow try to say that being #2 in Vanguard makes you an authority on what happened? Explain that to me.

You say ONOS was attacked because you and GUARD were a potential future threat. You then go on to say that GUARD were incompetent cowards, who were not interested in improving their military capabilities, and had no ambitions except to survive. Sounds pretty scary.

And then you try to claim that ONOS was going to first strike nuke all nuclear capable nations in WUT. Really? How the hell did ONOS get so many nukes and nuclear capable nations?

[Valerius]

WorldConqueror: You refuse to give evidence when requested, to back up your claims. You merely reiterate them. And you are either not listening to, or comprehending my argument of an ideological threat. Hit me up on IRC if you'd like this continued.

[Sigrun Vapneir]

Why is that inconceivable?

Think about that one for a minute if you have to.

It is, but that doesn't necessarily mean Pacifica or Valhalla had anything to do with it. Kuru may have organized it himself in order to secure the Presidency.

True enough.

Now I gave you two kinds of evidence.

Direct evidence (there is a confession) & circumstantial evidence (there are a long string of unlikely events and just straight-up undisguised corruption, such as resigning from the Presidency of one alliance to join immediately at officer rank in another alliance, which declares war on the old alliance based on your own actions there) and what do you do? You hone in on the weakest little bit in that pile of circumstantial evidence and state the obvious.

You are absolutely right. That might or might not have been related. About a dozen other members, several .gov included, at that time also may or may not have been part of the big picture. But it doesnt matter, because at the very least Kuru himself was acting directly under Continuum orders at the time. regardless how many and which others were.

From the wiki: * Ignoring an insulting IRC name aimed at Bilrow, the official responsible was later expelled from GPA.

Umm ignoring an insult? Wow someone worked hard to dress that up.

I guess I'm probably not supposed to actually use the "insult" word in reference to this here, so this may make it slightly harder to read, but hang in there. I'll use $snarl for the word that shall not be used.

$snarl is a four letter word that could be taken in several senses. It's only interpreted as an insult here because of OOC circumstances of Bilrow's that really arent anyone elses business. But this is important - without knowing that, you might think it was just a bad joke, but it might also be an actual but lesser known alliance tag, or even as in-game begging. Unless you know what I'm talking about that makes no sense, and I'm sorry, but it's all true.

Guy was idling in our channel with tag like "Bilrow[$snarl]" late at night. Guy was not Bilrow. Bilrow comes in. Notices guy. Is offended. Demands he be kicked for insulting him. OverlordXenu was the only OP on. Sees maybe impersonation (but that alliance tag makes no sense so looks more like parody really) - but doesnt know the situation, the guy has said nothing, and he gets his hackles up with the aggressive demands combined with their apparent senselessness. Now later things get explained, other people wake up, and it's sorted out quite quickly, with a new even more restrictive irc policy designed to prevent anyone from ever getting mad at us again. The response from you guys? More aggressive posturing. Which resulted in poor OX being expelled, but did nothing whatsoever to reduce tensions. Funny that. Kind of like Dilber had already signed off on the attack so nothing we did mattered at all.

* A GPA member aiding a member of GOONS, and not kicked till almost 3 weeks later, with GPA lying to IRON about putting this member on trial for a week. It was later revealed that this was largely due to inactivity among key GPA government members.

Yeah, we couldnt expel members without a trial. A lot of alliances have that rule. The other problem as I recall was that there was no evidence that the GPA member involved had any intent other than to do a tech deal. There was no question of on-going aid or any further damage than had already been irrevocably done. There was an offer of a cash payment. This was hardly the first time someone had gotten suckered into a tech deal with someone they shouldnt have, as you might imagine. I had over the year preceding in fact handled dozens of such cases without any incident whatsoever, including with Pacifica, and it was never so much as a problem. Then one day the same old situation we had been dealing with so easily and succesfuly all this time suddenly becomes a cause for war? Even after the expulsion was demanded and capitulated to? You really think anyone buys this?

* LSF fiasco - Threatening people who had left LSF long before anything happened, threatening SPQR and TOOL if they didn't give up people who were full members of either alliances but had left LSF within a few months of the problems with LSF and the GPA

Ahh, but they were trying to hunt down spies, and spying is bad! Dont you remember?

Oh and another funny little coïncidence how the one cabinet member who pushed and pushed to blow that thing out of proportion and managed to make us look bad just happened to turn around and join NPO shortly before the DoW.

* Valid deleting but being let back in under his new nation. He was not placed on the NPO ZI or perma ZI list, nor was the issue of his permanent fate resolved because he resigned from GPA and deleted before it could be determined.

So he deletes and rerolls and applies and is admitted. He could have applied and been admitted to NPO and you wouldnt have known who he was either. All besides the fact, just distraction. The die was cast weeks earlier.

* Offering protection to Lord Swampy a nation on the Valhalla perma zi list. It turns out he was only offered affiliate status, which doesn't mean he was offered protection from anyone's ZI lists. He was expelled from GPA as soon as GPA found out he was on NPO's and Valhalla's perma-ZI lists. (Both groups did not inform the GPA, and came in yelling about the acceptance)

And they chose that as the centerpiece of justification in their DoW. And it still isnt true. He was an affilliate, not a member, and was not protected. Affiliate was a stage where for two weeks an applicant was not protected or given access to member areas of the board, but given course materials and tests, to make sure they understand they will be expelled immediately if they violate neutrality and know exactly what that means. That is also two weeks for anyone that may have a beef with that nation to notice them and get in touch, *before* even the President himself could make someone a member! So he just affilliated him and ran to NATO. Didnt matter anyhow. If Dilber signaled a hailfest a hailfest would occur.

Hardly all about Lord Swampy.

I didnt say it was. Do you need to find a dictionary and look up "centerpiece?"

[Uhtred]

You ask me if it's hard to write the such I do, and then come out with a post like that? I'm sure there's others that could rip nice big holes in it, but I'll give it a go. First of all, our guides are our property. Doesn't matter if you already have the information, or if the guides are completely wrong, or what. They are ours, you took them, we punish you.

One of the major points of his argument was that you didn't punish the person who actually took the guides. You're skimming over the content and trying to argue with buzzwords, clichés and mistruths.

Next, you admit you weren't high government in ONOS, but you somehow try to say that being #2 in Vanguard makes you an authority on what happened? Explain that to me.

He said the #2 in ONOS currently resides in Vanguard and presumably a former member of such rank would be an authority and has shared insight with Rafa.

Edited August 27, 2009 by Uhtred

[WorldConqueror]

WorldConqueror: You refuse to give evidence when requested, to back up your claims. You merely reiterate them. And you are either not listening to, or comprehending my argument of an ideological threat. Hit me up on IRC if you'd like this continued.

There is a thread called the Amazing Sanction Race.

Our ideology has done perfectly well for us in our own affairs and in our ability to attract allies. I don't think neutrality or incompetent and inefficient democracy were ever a threat to the Pacifican way.

[Petrovich4]

You ask me if it's hard to write the such I do, and then come out with a post like that? I'm sure there's others that could rip nice big holes in it, but I'll give it a go. First of all, our guides are our property. Doesn't matter if you already have the information, or if the guides are completely wrong, or what. They are ours, you took them, we punish you.

Next, you admit you weren't high government in ONOS, but you somehow try to say that being #2 in Vanguard makes you an authority on what happened? Explain that to me.

You say ONOS was attacked because you and GUARD were a potential future threat. You then go on to say that GUARD were incompetent cowards, who were not interested in improving their military capabilities, and had no ambitions except to survive. Sounds pretty scary.

And then you try to claim that ONOS was going to first strike nuke all nuclear capable nations in WUT. Really? How the hell did ONOS get so many nukes and nuclear capable nations?

Read mine, its accurate.

And also, for what it's worth, a few of us at ONOS had started enacting a plan to first strike nuke all nuke capable nations of WUT

Uhhhh this must have been under the poor Ivan Viceroyship - after I left. Because we had no plans like that whatsoever.

NADC, on the other hand, haha, they were the threat, NPO got the wrong alliance. EmperorCharles himself told me he was going to war NPO at the end of August 07 rather then pay the 500 million. And that was back in May! That's when I knew he was truly incompetent and suicidal. Watching NADC being curbstomped was fun. I'm not entirely intimate of the reasons with the NADC-BLEU war, but based on my personal history and interaction with NADC, they had it coming. NpO and crew actually helped NPO, even if netiehr of the Orders were aware of it at the time

[WorldConqueror]

Think about that one for a minute if you have to.

True enough.

Now I gave you two kinds of evidence.

Direct evidence (there is a confession) & circumstantial evidence (there are a long string of unlikely events and just straight-up undisguised corruption, such as resigning from the Presidency of one alliance to join immediately at officer rank in another alliance, which declares war on the old alliance based on your own actions there) and what do you do? You hone in on the weakest little bit in that pile of circumstantial evidence and state the obvious.

You are absolutely right. That might or might not have been related. About a dozen other members, several .gov included, at that time also may or may not have been part of the big picture. But it doesnt matter, because at the very least Kuru himself was acting directly under Continuum orders at the time. regardless how many and which others were.

Umm ignoring an insult? Wow someone worked hard to dress that up.

I guess I'm probably not supposed to actually use the "insult" word in reference to this here, so this may make it slightly harder to read, but hang in there. I'll use $snarl for the word that shall not be used.

$snarl is a four letter word that could be taken in several senses. It's only interpreted as an insult here because of OOC circumstances of Bilrow's that really arent anyone elses business. But this is important - without knowing that, you might think it was just a bad joke, but it might also be an actual but lesser known alliance tag, or even as in-game begging. Unless you know what I'm talking about that makes no sense, and I'm sorry, but it's all true.

Guy was idling in our channel with tag like "Bilrow[$snarl]" late at night. Guy was not Bilrow. Bilrow comes in. Notices guy. Is offended. Demands he be kicked for insulting him. OverlordXenu was the only OP on. Sees maybe impersonation (but that alliance tag makes no sense so looks more like parody really) - but doesnt know the situation, the guy has said nothing, and he gets his hackles up with the aggressive demands combined with their apparent senselessness. Now later things get explained, other people wake up, and it's sorted out quite quickly, with a new even more restrictive irc policy designed to prevent anyone from ever getting mad at us again. The response from you guys? More aggressive posturing. Which resulted in poor OX being expelled, but did nothing whatsoever to reduce tensions. Funny that. Kind of like Dilber had already signed off on the attack so nothing we did mattered at all.

Yeah, we couldnt expel members without a trial. A lot of alliances have that rule. The other problem as I recall was that there was no evidence that the GPA member involved had any intent other than to do a tech deal. There was no question of on-going aid or any further damage than had already been irrevocably done. There was an offer of a cash payment. This was hardly the first time someone had gotten suckered into a tech deal with someone they shouldnt have, as you might imagine. I had over the year preceding in fact handled dozens of such cases without any incident whatsoever, including with Pacifica, and it was never so much as a problem. Then one day the same old situation we had been dealing with so easily and succesfuly all this time suddenly becomes a cause for war? Even after the expulsion was demanded and capitulated to? You really think anyone buys this?

Ahh, but they were trying to hunt down spies, and spying is bad! Dont you remember?

Oh and another funny little coïncidence how the one cabinet member who pushed and pushed to blow that thing out of proportion and managed to make us look bad just happened to turn around and join NPO shortly before the DoW.

So he deletes and rerolls and applies and is admitted. He could have applied and been admitted to NPO and you wouldnt have known who he was either. All besides the fact, just distraction. The die was cast weeks earlier.

And they chose that as the centerpiece of justification in their DoW. And it still isnt true. He was an affilliate, not a member, and was not protected. Affiliate was a stage where for two weeks an applicant was not protected or given access to member areas of the board, but given course materials and tests, to make sure they understand they will be expelled immediately if they violate neutrality and know exactly what that means. That is also two weeks for anyone that may have a beef with that nation to notice them and get in touch, *before* even the President himself could make someone a member! So he just affilliated him and ran to NATO. Didnt matter anyhow. If Dilber signaled a hailfest a hailfest would occur.

I didnt say it was. Do you need to find a dictionary and look up "centerpiece?"

Why don't you think about what you are saying. It may be inconceivable for you that our allies aren't puppets, that everything they do isn't somehow our fault. But surprise! It's true. Shock horror.

You gave no evidence that Kuru was taking orders from anyone. You said the messages were sent by tiny nations. I gave an alternate explanation that didn't involve a Pacifican puppet master but of course you disregard that.

You then go through the complaints that make up the CB. Individually, yes, they probably don't make a strong CB. But all together? Ever hear of the straw that broke the camel's back?

You singled Lord Swampy out as the reason that our CB was unacceptable.

EDIT: clarity

Edited August 27, 2009 by WorldConqueror

[Valerius]

There is a thread called the Amazing Sanction Race.

I'll assume you're refering to the second post with data from the 01/01/08. Right, so one day Pacifica grew more than GPA and so you base your entire argument around the fact that 'we would have overtaken them soon'. Surely you understand how these things fluctuate?! Even if this was the case, which I highly doubt, the point is completely and totally irrelevent! Read: ideological threat to Pacifican domination.

Our ideology has done perfectly well for us in our own affairs and in our ability to attract allies.

Karma War anyone?

I don't think neutrality or incompetent and inefficient democracy were ever a threat to the Pacifican way.

Everything not a part of the 'Pacifican way' is seen by its purveyors as a threat to it.

[WorldConqueror]

ONOS

Let me break it down for you once (bold part). Da Choice (the ONOS member who spied on our forums and gave you information) first joined NPO. Then he went to WTF, and finally ONOS where he rose up the ranks due to merit. When he first came he had posted a couple threads with an NPO nation building guide. Once the leader of ONOS saw this (the day of) he quickly put it in the recycling bin where only 4 people had access to it and it was quickly forgotten becuse we had much better guides (we had the 2nd highest avg nation strength at the time - right after TOP, prior to GW3). About 5 months later, it was used as one of the pieces of 'evidence' to isolate and roll us all within the same day.

The google spying documents was a joke. One sunny, post League day, in the green field of white bunnies, a GPA member created a post. This post said that GPA should match NPO in nuke count (post GW3). We heard about it on public irc and tucked it away, amused and intrigued at the info. Suffice it to say, as far as we knew at the time, nothing concrete came from that post by a GPA general member (this was one of the items 'blacked out' when NPO released their evidence and possibly used against GPA during NPO's anti GPA buildup).

On cloudier days after that, we (ONOS and NADC) continued to receive info/screenshots about each of our alliances being targetted for war/curbstomping. These were real, legitimate scares for us because the contents of the information about wanting to kill us came from some of the highest members of the core of WUT signatories. Being good and scared little boys, we passed on the screenshots and info back to WUT essentially saying 'fix your spy problem cuz we don't want nothing to do with it'.

All the 'spying info' that could be found on these google documents came from the above information. So, one pleasant night, Da Choice, one of the top 4 in ONOS, decided to press that magical 'prnt screen' button on the keyboard and aim it at everything he could find and slant against ONOS. He quickly went to NPO - his former home - quickly got amnesty, and passed the internal ONOS screenies along. NPO got us kicked from GUARD and IRON dropped its O/MDP. It was brutally fast. This all happened within 24 hrs.

Connect the dots.

_________________________________________________________________________

Why did we pass the WUT screenies along? (related to OP)

ONOS wanted to 'impress' NPO with our consideration for their well being (i.e. we wanted to kiss their gluts so we could survive). ONOS was on the verge of simultanuously dropping GUARD (NADC incompetence) and signing an overt MDP with IRON and one with NPO. We were getting subtle and not so subtle hints from both parties to sign overt MDPs. Lets just say the political landscape would have changed that summer in '07 if ONOS was given a chance to explain itself. Unfortunately, we had no shot in hell due to CN's political landscape at the time. Fortunately, many of us scattered to the four corners of CN where we currently reside.

P.S. On a side note, it's good to see that WorldConqueror and NPO are wanting Revanche. I'll see you at the fireworks in 2010. B)

P.P.S. I like my version better Rafa Baby

So you admit ONOS was in possession in our guides. Thankyou. If ONOS had informed us and let us deal with Da Choice then, ONOS may still be alive. Instead you sat on the information, and then Da Choice himself revealed it to us. Fairly easy to see why he was given amnesty in that case. You hid the secret, and he atoned by revealing it.

[Valerius]

So you admit ONOS was in possession in our guides. Thankyou. If ONOS had informed us and let us deal with Da Choice then, ONOS may still be alive. Instead you sat on the information, and then Da Choice himself revealed it to us. Fairly easy to see why he was given amnesty in that case. You hid the secret, and he atoned by revealing it.

His point was that the guides were deleted immediately out of common sense and lack of need for them. All around I don't think it was viewed as a big deal, until Pacifica used it to further her own agenda towards domination; which ONOS and GUARD were a major threat to (deny it all you like, but I was NADC at the time, and we were well aware of the global situation and our and our allies' place in it).

[WorldConqueror]

I'll assume you're refering to the second post with data from the 01/01/08. Right, so one day Pacifica grew more than GPA and so you base your entire argument around the fact that 'we would have overtaken them soon'. Surely you understand how these things fluctuate?! Even if this was the case, which I highly doubt, the point is completely and totally irrelevent! Read: ideological threat to Pacifican domination.

Karma War anyone?

Everything not a part of the 'Pacifican way' is seen by its purveyors as a threat to it.

We did overtake them. That isn't even refuted by GPA. We were #1 when the war started, and had been for a while. I don't remember the date of the war, but there are stats that prove I'm correct. If you really don't believe me I suppose I can go and dig them up. I addressed your 'ideological threat' point before.

Just because some of those allies turned around and stabbed us in the back does not mean there is anything wrong with our ideology. If anything it proves its superiority, and they had to ally themselves with us and adopt our ideology to some degree in order to both survive and orchestrate their attack. If they had have been caught they would have been killed.

Anyone acting against Pacifica is inviting an attack. We protect ourselves, forcefully if need be. We make no apologies for that.

[WorldConqueror]

His point was that the guides were deleted immediately out of common sense and lack of need for them. All around I don't think it was viewed as a big deal, until Pacifica used it to further her own agenda towards domination; which ONOS and GUARD were a major threat to (deny it all you like, but I was NADC at the time, and we were well aware of the global situation and our and our allies' place in it).

But they weren't deleted, he said so himself. They were moved. ONOS still had them in their possession.

You are delusional if you think GUARD was a threat to anything.

[Valerius]

You are completely misinterpreting me. I'll just say that, in reply to your speel on allies, your fall was as great as your rise, therefore any particular merits of your character which acheived you the rise are cancelled out by the domineering, calculating ones which assured your downfall.

Though GUARD was an outwardly neutral bloc, with the last fall if Aegis we were one of the only things standing against the Initiative being able to declare Hegemony there and then. And it's is you, sir, who are dillusional if you believe the destruction of ONOS and the NADC was unrelated to this, and solely about the actual CBs. They were simply utter BS.

[Jack Diorno]

We did overtake them. That isn't even refuted by GPA. We were #1 when the war started, and had been for a while. I don't remember the date of the war, but there are stats that prove I'm correct. If you really don't believe me I suppose I can go and dig them up. I addressed your 'ideological threat' point before.

Just because some of those allies turned around and stabbed us in the back does not mean there is anything wrong with our ideology. If anything it proves its superiority, and they had to ally themselves with us and adopt our ideology to some degree in order to both survive and orchestrate their attack. If they had have been caught they would have been killed.

Anyone acting against Pacifica is inviting an attack. We protect ourselves, forcefully if need be. We make no apologies for that.

You are so ignorant, your like a pacifica propaganda machine but the kind that doesn't know the truth behind all of NPO's lies, you really should investigate things for yourself instead of using all of the IO's meaningless babble.

You overtook GPA for all of a week before the war, and that can pretty much be explained by the sheer publicity that was created prior to the war, everyone knew it was coming, GPA nations started leaving, NPO militarized and grew, that's why you overtook them. Regardless if you overtook them or not, the war was already in motion before they dropped below you, events had already transpired publicly and everyone knew it was coming.

check the stats for yourself.

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?s...st&p=374284

[WorldConqueror]

You are completely misinterpreting me. I'll just say that, in reply to your speel on allies, your fall was as great as your rise, therefore any particular merits of your character which acheived you the rise are cancelled out by the domineering, calculating ones which assured your downfall.

Though GUARD was an outwardly neutral bloc, with the last fall if Aegis we were one of the only things standing against the Initiative being able to declare Hegemony there and then. And it's is you, sir, who are dillusional if you believe the destruction of ONOS and the NADC was unrelated to this, and solely about the actual CBs. They were simply utter BS.

You don't think after GWIII that the Initiative had hegemony? Oooook. GUARD posed no military threat, and as you said it was a neutral bloc. GUARD had very little political sway. GUARD was a joke. BS because you were on the receiving end of them?

[Sigrun Vapneir]

We did overtake them. That isn't even refuted by GPA. We were #1 when the war started, and had been for a while.

Congratulations! You got one right!

We closed recruitment. We didnt want the number 1 spot to begin with, and we gave it back as quick as possible. Like I said, nothing mattered once the decision was made.

[WorldConqueror]

You are so ignorant, your like a pacifica propaganda machine but the kind that doesn't know the truth behind all of NPO's lies, you really should investigate things for yourself instead of using all of the IO's meaningless babble.

You overtook GPA for all of a week before the war, and that can pretty much be explained by the sheer publicity that was created prior to the war, everyone knew it was coming, GPA nations started leaving, NPO militarized and grew, that's why you overtook them. Regardless if you overtook them or not, the war was already in motion before they dropped below you, events had already transpired publicly and everyone knew it was coming.

check the stats for yourself.

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?s...st&p=374284

Oh sorry, I'm ignorant because I don't agree with the mighty Jack Diorno. I know what happened. I was there. We overtook GPA before the war. My point stands.

[Teriethien]

But they weren't deleted, he said so himself. They were moved. ONOS still had them in their possession.

he quickly put it in the recycling bin where only 4 people had access to

Does elawyering around trivial details so that in your mind, Pacifica was right to do what it did, offer you some sense of moral superiority or pleasure in thinking you are right? Because you may have a point, and in some cases you may even be right. But what this and your other posts seem to be saying is that Pacifica is a bloodthirsty alliance that would jump at the most flimsy of causes to declare war, when all reasonable alliance or person would have taken a step back and resolved things through diplomacy. It doesn't really matter if it is legal in Utah for a person in to kill a trespasser in their home; doing so make them look like trigger happy gunslingers with homicidal tendencies.

This thread is best summed by up this post:

WorldConqueror, it is the keen arguing skills of you and your alliance mates like you that have gotten NPO to where it is today.

[Jack Diorno]

Oh sorry, I'm ignorant because I don't agree with the mighty Jack Diorno. I know what happened. I was there. We overtook GPA before the war. My point stands.

This is from the amazing sanction race ten days before you declared on the GPA.

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?s...st&p=374284

Why would the top alliance in the game be losing such a large score? Everyone knew what was coming, you had a slew of threads on the GPA and people started leaving.

Tell me oh great WorldConqueror, hero of the Pacific, if I am wrong, why was GPA losing so many members and such a large chunk of score? coincidental to the fact that you were publicly out for them? Read my link, the updater even stated the following:

A staggering loss in points on behalf of GPA puts NPO in prime position to take number one before the week is up. This is no doubt a result of an exdous caused by their recent scandals

This was on the 2/5, ten days before war was declared. You don't even know your own alliance's history.

EDIT: quote tags.

Edited August 27, 2009 by Jack Diorno

[Steelrat]

Style, especially in this realm, rarely has much to do with the cut of my jacket.

In regards to some other comments here, there were numerous occasions in which the NPO was wholly and completely justified to take military action. Simply because certain parties were on the opposing side of the events doesn't mean that the NPO automatically and consistently acted without valid casus belli.

Maybe not numerous time and maybe NPO used more than ususal underhand tactics, read as fabricated CBs but WorldConqueror´s crusade trying to white wash/justify anything NPO did will not help NPO in the long run. Especially not with his style or arguing.

btw., i know Sigrun from Grämlins and i can assure you she knows what she is talking about, sometimes i had the feeling even though she wasn´t in gov she was better informed than myself about present events. I guess that´s the benefit of being an old timer with contacts around planet Bob.

[WorldConqueror]

Does elawyering around trivial details so that in your mind, Pacifica was right to do what it did, offer you some sense of moral superiority or pleasure in thinking you are right? Because you may have a point, and in some cases you may even be right. But what this and your other posts seem to be saying is that Pacifica is a bloodthirsty alliance that would jump at the most flimsy of causes to declare war, when all reasonable alliance or person would have taken a step back and resolved things through diplomacy. It doesn't really matter if it is legal in Utah for a person in to kill a trespasser in their home; doing so make them look like trigger happy gunslingers with homicidal tendencies.

This thread is best summed by up this post:

How is that e-lawyering? That's fact. Just because it doesn't fit your 'evil Pacifica' mindset, where everything we do is unjustified and a crime against humanity, means it's a trivial detail.

And yes, it gives me great pleasure to show all you people wearing those anti-Pacifican blinkers that are so very popular that we are justified, we are right, and just because you screwed up and got destroyed you can't accept that.

Don't get me wrong, I like playing the monster. But I also like to prove you moralists wrong.

[Teriethien]

How is that e-lawyering? That's fact. Just because it doesn't fit your 'evil Pacifica' mindset, where everything we do is unjustified and a crime against humanity, means it's a trivial detail.

And yes, it gives me great pleasure to show all you people wearing those anti-Pacifican blinkers that are so very popular that we are justified, we are right, and just because you screwed up and got destroyed you can't accept that.

Don't get me wrong, I like playing the monster. But I also like to prove you moralists wrong.

Except you have shown us nothing that would make us think in Pacifica justified or right in the slightest. This post just demonstrated again what I've said. The difference between deleting something completely and deleting something into into the recycle bin is trivial. Yeah you pointed out a fact, but just because it is a fact doesn't improve your position one bit. Your collective image is only worse off because of it.

I'm truly sorry if you can't see this.