NPO History Discussion

[Delta1212]

Yet, ironically, SF actually got involved though optional aggression pacts.

Strictly speaking, SF's treaty is sort of a cross between an MADP and an MDoAP. It's not entirely optional. We vote and majority determines whether the war is binding for everyone in that particular scenario. And we always vote yes. I'm not really sure how many times we have to state that "If one member of SF goes to war we all do" before it sinks in.

Edited August 26, 2009 by Delta1212

[Letum]

Strictly speaking, SF's treaty is sort of a cross between an MADP and an MDoAP. It's not entirely optional. We vote and majority rules. And we always vote yes. I'm not really sure how many times we have to state that "If one member of SF goes to war we all do" before it sinks in.

I was actually referring to the fact that it was RoK's MDoAP with VE that ended up bringing SF in, rather than GOD's late use of their defence clause with OV. Hence the "irony" in that the "pretty clear defence obligation" did not end up being the practical trigger for the bloc's entry.

[Delta1212]

I was actually referring to the fact that it was RoK's MDoAP with VE that ended up bringing SF in, rather than GOD's late use of their defence clause with OV. Hence the "irony" in that the "pretty clear defence obligation" did not end up being the practical trigger for the bloc's entry.

RIA entered when Echelon declared war on GOD

[Letum]

RIA entered when Echelon declared war on GOD

Yea, but that rather deviates away from the point. Echelon; great as they are, didn't have much to do with OV.

[WorldConqueror]

Chill was never pushed, he exactly knew about Gremlin´s members stand on that issue, he knew what was at stake, not less than the survival of two of our allies. He explored all possible options and he wasn´t shy to throw in Gremlins weight when needed. That was seen by some Karma alliances as Chill was going to chicken out with Gremlins.

When the survival of friends is at stake, well you use any action by all means necassary. That´s the Gremlins way, you can ask VE about it when the Green massacre happened and we were prepared to fight and die with VE.

If Chill was always going to bring Gremlins in on Karma's side, why did you and other high ranking Gremlins have to convince him it was a good idea? You say you came in to stop FARK and MK being killed. Are you serious? You think after the FARKlands war that anyone would really try to kill FARK? They are the cockroaches on CN, you can't kill them. As for MK, remember WotC? If they were going to be killed, they would have been then. Funny you mention the Green Civil War. Hilarious even. Since if you look at the history, there were 4 signatories of the Green Solidarity Pact. 3 of those fought. Who didn't? That's right, Gremlins. Fight and die? You weren't even prepared to fight, let alone die.

[Delta1212]

Yea, but that rather deviates away from the point. Echelon; great as they are, didn't have much to do with OV.

I thought we were discussing the clear treaty obligations which dragged us into the war and would have been obvious from the outset? Obviously GOD would have had to defend OV and equally obviously this would result in the rest of SF getting dragged in regardless of what happened with the rest of the conflict.

[WorldConqueror]

The truth is, as any whom have seen my private comments in various places can attest, I hold the Body Republic community of the NPO in the highest regard and would never make such comments in an effort to harm them.

EDIT: You mention no ties between NSO and Frostbite with NPO. It could have occurred to someone at some time that alienating the best, closest and most obvious tie that might have existed isn't the best course of action if relations were actually wish for.

The feeling is mutual, Ivan. There is still a great deal of respect for you within Pacifica.

Also, I personally (and I'm sure I'm not alone) would like to see a close relationship between NPO and the Frostbite alliances. However, realistically it seems very unlikely.

EDIT: Spelling

Edited August 26, 2009 by WorldConqueror

[Sandwich Controversy]

As for MK, remember WotC? If they were going to be killed, they would have been then.

It took a lot of convincing from MHA, Grämlins, and others before we got terms at all.

[Essenia]

It took a lot of convincing from MHA, Grämlins, and others before we got terms at all.

Indeed, most people (in both NPO and MK) believed that the war would be one of annihilation and it wasn't until NPO was bugged enough by its allies at the time that it came down.

[Delta1212]

It took a lot of convincing from MHA, Grämlins, and others before we got terms at all.

And even with all those alliances pressuring NPO to make you die, they still relented?

[Letum]

I thought we were discussing the clear treaty obligations which dragged us into the war and would have been obvious from the outset? Obviously GOD would have had to defend OV and equally obviously this would result in the rest of SF getting dragged in regardless of what happened with the rest of the conflict.

It's not like using RoK's treaties is any less legitimate than using GOD's; nor is it the case that SF would not have faced the need to come to OV's defence. I was discussing the irony of highlighting that defence when it never actually needed to materialize. In practice; there is no material significance as it would have happened anyway. The fact that it didn't need to happen merely illustrates that there was enough desire to get a piece of the NPO pie that the OV connection was unnecessary in the first place; thereby validating the idea that they were just a "convenient excuse" as Katsumi claimed.

[Delta1212]

It's not like using RoK's treaties is any less legitimate than using GOD's; nor is it the case that SF would not have faced the need to come to OV's defence. I was discussing the irony of highlighting that defence when it never actually needed to materialize. In practice; there is no material significance as it would have happened anyway. The fact that it didn't need to happen merely illustrates that there was enough desire to get a piece of the NPO pie that the OV connection was unnecessary in the first place; thereby validating the idea that they were just a "convenient excuse" as Katsumi claimed.

Until you consider the fact that we aren't stupid and knew we were all going to have to come in one way or another so we might as well do it in the best manner possible. If you're going to get dragged into a fight whether you like it or not, you might as well charge the line.

[WorldConqueror]

Indeed, most people (in both NPO and MK) believed that the war would be one of annihilation and it wasn't until NPO was bugged enough by its allies at the time that it came down.

If what you are saying is true, and I doubt it is, since I really don't think we were out to kill MK, then why would this time round have been any different? If our allies made us change our minds and give you terms the first time, why would we assume they would do any different the second time?

[Letum]

Until you consider the fact that we aren't stupid and knew we were all going to have to come in one way or another so we might as well do it in the best manner possible. If you're going to get dragged into a fight whether you like it or not, you might as well charge the line.

But charging the line only shows that you aren't "dragged into it", but actually want to fight.

Not that there is anything wrong with that.

[Letum]

It took a lot of convincing from MHA, Grämlins, and others before we got terms at all.

You make it sound like the war did not last for merely one cycle.

[Sandwich Controversy]

You make it sound like the war did not last for merely one cycle.

Two cycles, thank you very much. And during that time, we were at war with NPO, VE, Echelon, TORN, Ordo Recolitus, and Molon Labe. We were outmanned and outgunned much, much more than NPO ever was.

I should also note that none of our nations hid in peace mode for the entirety of the war.

[Delta1212]

But charging the line only shows that you aren't "dragged into it", but actually want to fight.

Not that there is anything wrong with that.

Or it proves that you're smart enough to think more than 24 hours ahead...

[Letum]

If you want to get into technicalities, it is 13 days, translating to 1.3 cycles. And I am not here to debate how well MK fought in the war (which was very well), only that it was fairly short; so talking about annihilation or the need for significant pressures to end it is a bit of overkill.

[Essenia]

If you want to get into technicalities, it is 13 days, translating to 1.3 cycles. And I am not here to debate how well MK fought in the war (which was very well), only that it was fairly short; so talking about annihilation or the need for significant pressures to end it is a bit of overkill.

Wars in Cybernations last 7 days. Not 10.

[WorldConqueror]

Two cycles, thank you very much. And during that time, we were at war with NPO, VE, Echelon, TORN, Ordo Recolitus, and Molon Labe. We were outmanned and outgunned much, much more than NPO ever was.

I should also note that none of our nations hid in peace mode for the entirety of the war.

What does how long it lasted or how many people you fought have anything to do with our alleged intent to kill MK off?

And you don't use banks. So what? We do.

[Letum]

Wars in Cybernations last 7 days. Not 10.

Dammit, I keep on confusing those two.

[WorldConqueror]

Dammit, I keep on confusing those two.

All that banking is screwing with your mind, Letum

[Sandwich Controversy]

What does how long it lasted or how many people you fought have anything to do with our alleged intent to kill MK off?

And you don't use banks. So what? We do.

I don't believe the post I quoted said anything about that. Still, you have to realize that for nearly a year prior to the War of the Coalition NPO had been looking for a reason to kill us off for the entire time. They would not-so-subtly tell alliances planning to treaty us that someday our number would come up and they'd roll us. If you need proof of this, go look at any thread MK posted during that period and look for NPO posters and their thinly veiled threats. A more specific example would be to look at MK's DoW thread and look at the posts of Bakunin, then-Imperial Regent. I believe he posted something like "Oh, joyous, joyous day."

I also don't think anyone buys that your entire top rank are "banks" and go into peace mode during every war, but that's beside the point and nobody wants to talk about that again.

Edited August 26, 2009 by Sandwich Controversy

[WorldConqueror]

I don't believe the post I quoted said anything about that. Still, you have to realize that for nearly a year prior to the War of the Coalition NPO had been looking for a reason to kill us off for the entire time. They would not-so-subtly tell alliances planning to treaty us that someday our number would come up and they'd roll us. If you need proof of this, go look at any thread MK posted during that period and look for NPO posters and their thinly veiled threats. A more specific example would be to look at MK's DoW thread and look at the posts of Bakunin, then-Imperial Regent. I believe he posted something like "Oh, joyous, joyous day."

I also don't think anyone buys that your entire top rank are "banks" and go into peace mode during every war, but that's beside the point and nobody wants to talk about that again.

There's a big difference between wanting to kill you off, and wanting to go to war. I'm not saying that there was no animosity between NPO and MK, obviously there was, a lot of it, but I think you've been caught up in the propaganda that "Pacifica kills alliances".

Well, if stupid people didn't keep repeating lies, we wouldn't have to talk about it anymore. You can say our entire top rank went into PM. I can say that Chinese donkeys invaded the moon on saturday. Unsubstantiated bull#$%& is fun. But do you really think that our top ranks were approximately 1 100K NS nation and the rest around 50K? At the start of the war, I was in the top 5% of nations, and about #90 in the NPO. I had about 65K NS. At the end of the war I had 8K NS. My squad of 10 members, most of whom were bigger than me, all ended up around 8-10K NS. Maybe our banks were our top rank by the end of the war, because they were in PM and didn't get beaten down. But before the war, they weren't. I'm sure if you go have a look at some of the stats threads, they will tell you the same thing.

[Essenia]

There's a big difference between wanting to kill you off, and wanting to go to war. I'm not saying that there was no animosity between NPO and MK, obviously there was, a lot of it, but I think you've been caught up in the propaganda that "Pacifica kills alliances".

Well, if stupid people didn't keep repeating lies, we wouldn't have to talk about it anymore. You can say our entire top rank went into PM. I can say that Chinese donkeys invaded the moon on saturday. Unsubstantiated bull#$%& is fun. But do you really think that our top ranks were approximately 1 100K NS nation and the rest around 50K? At the start of the war, I was in the top 5% of nations, and about #90 in the NPO. I had about 65K NS. At the end of the war I had 8K NS. My squad of 10 members, most of whom were bigger than me, all ended up around 8-10K NS. Maybe our banks were our top rank by the end of the war, because they were in PM and didn't get beaten down. But before the war, they weren't. I'm sure if you go have a look at some of the stats threads, they will tell you the same thing.

It's certainly true that most of large NPO nations fought, the problem is that NPO fought considerably less hard than many of its allies. That's not your 'fault' necessarily, but it does make you look bad, even if 70-80% or so of your upper ranks fought.