New raid tactic or epic fail?

[Drostan]

I find it interesting that no one ever thinks that maybe there was also a factor of the NPO thinking, "It would be nice if this game had more players. Tech raiding seems to drive away more people than anything else. Maybe we should stop that to make the game better. How can we mitigate this problem?" I realize making caricatures of evil is fun, though, so it's hard to assume the bad guy ever does ANYTHING good except for purely selfish reasons.

I actually mentioned in a previous post in here that I felt tech-raiding especially at low levels likely scares players off.

[King Wally]

at a quick glance that stands however it is this very raiding that forces people to band together and form alliances. And I for one beleive it is the alliance side of CN that is the truely interesting part, if we devalue the need for alliances and the experiance I really think that would take even more away.

The threat of war (raiding included) is a vital ingrediant to promote healthy active alliances and turns CN from a one dimentional game played alone to a 3 dimentional network of interaction.

You need to look at the full concequences of what you are wishing for there.

[Captain Flinders]

I would take it to the government of DT. While their charter on the wiki does not outline raiding standards, I would assume they have some. You may also want to check with them what his exact standing in the alliance is as they have certain levels of membership that can and cannot raid. Good luck with this pretty gutless character.

[King DrunkWino]

at a quick glance that stands however it is this very raiding that forces people to band together and form alliances. And I for one beleive it is the alliance side of CN that is the truely interesting part, if we devalue the need for alliances and the experiance I really think that would take even more away.

The threat of war (raiding included) is a vital ingrediant to promote healthy active alliances and turns CN from a one dimentional game played alone to a 3 dimentional network of interaction.

You need to look at the full concequences of what you are wishing for there.

If it's war someone is after, then it isn't hard to find someone willing to dance with you for a round.

If it's extortion, griefing, and nothing better than thievery someone is after, then by all means let this farce called raiding continue.

And using the threat of being raided to try and gain alliance members? Man, seriously. You'd do much better to offer an enhanced experience that a simply protection from raiders. Do you truly have nothing else to offer? Do you not offer training to new applicants? Do you not offer growth programs? Do you not offer interesting other people they could get to know? If you can offer this, then you do not need to rely on vultures to strike fear into unaligned folks.

[MaGneT]

That isn't a half bad idea. It would be hilarious for him to log-in one day to find himself under attack from multiple nations and glowing more than Luke's Lightsabre.

Knowing Tsar, I'd pity all 3 of those nations. Hell, I'd pity 10 nations.

I can't say I approve of this, but I do find it amusing that this guy willingly nuked you when his alliance preferred to sign a non-nuke agreement with SSSW18 during the Karma War.

You mean when DT came and saved MOON from getting stomped and needed to take some pressure off seeing as we had all of TOOL attacking a 50 man alliance?

There's a fine line between strategy and cowardice.

<snip>

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

I do believe that every post you've made in at least the past year has made me close my eyes and shake my head in disbelief. Thanks for the entertainment.

What Tsar did was a dick move and nothing more. I cannot wrap my head around how people call it unacceptable or talk about acceptable raid standards for this community. There are no standards and no conventions (can't wait for some random "I hate Karma ;_;" poster to drop by and accuse Karma of creating a world of chaos btw).

Dick move, yes.

I frigging hate chicken !@#$ !@#$%^&* like that.

Maybe I will nuclear strike him, I actually have the nukes and the range.

Can I join the party (I'll have to be on his side, of course, but it's still a party) ?

I find this act totally dispicable, as such I have posted a letter to Tsar Kalashnikov

"Tsar Kalashnikov,

I am writing you to express my condonement of your actions against El Diablo. To: Icy McFlame From: Tsar Kalashnikov Date: 7/22/2009 9:53:16 AM Subject: RE: War Declared! Message: Maybe I will . Just as a warning though, if you don't at least buy soldiers and attempt to fight I will have to nuke you. Have a nice day!

And...To: Icy McFlame From: Tsar Kalashnikov Date: 7/23/2009 12:22:52 AM Subject: Nuclear Attack Message: Your nation has been attacked with nuclear weapons by Tsar Kalashnikov. You lost 0 soldiers, 0 defending tanks, 7 cruise missiles, 141.530 miles of land, 23.650 technology, 161.773 infrastructure, 75% of your aircraft, and 25% of your nuclear vulnerable navy force. In addition to these losses your nation will experience many days of economic devastation.

This act is one of disgrace and I shall request your team Senator to place sanctions against you.

Kamino"

He is a member of The Dark Templar and I beleave that these actions should be corrected immediatly!

Dear Tulak Hord,

at 12:22:51 AM this morning El Diablo was savagly attacked by Soviet Arctic States. I request that sanctins be brought against Soviet Arctic States. You may check out the discussion on this on the CN forums at http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=64153 in these times after the karma war it would be ashame to see a new wave of savagry sweep across planet Bob and actions need to be taken to show that these actions will not be tolerated.

Thank you for your time,

Kamino

I view this as a direct act of war against one of my comrades.

If you were competent enough for me to view you as a threat, I'd consider doing something.

Instead, I'll laugh while you exercise some futility. Ahhhh. Nice.

[Gauner]

A year and a half ago or something like that before i quit the game for awhile and then came back, i was in an alliance i had made with a friend. It was just some small 2 man unit and we decided to war some really weak kid and tell him if he joined our alliance we'd stop It worked too and he joined but uh in like 3 weeks he turned on us both and tried to take us 2v1, didnt quite work out for him but uh just goes to show what kind of loyalty those recruitment methods create.

[King Wally]

Can I join the party (I'll have to be on his side, of course, but it's still a party) ?

Guarantee you wouldn't be the only guy on that side of the party. Any other alliance that thinks it has some god given right to punish other sovereign alliances for deads done against non allaigned nations is seriously mistaken.

It has nothing to do with you... if DT leadership have an issue with their member they will deal with it.

And Alpha sorry mate but you have misread me, suggest you re-read my comments.

[Vilien]

Guarantee you wouldn't be the only guy on that side of the party. Any other alliance that thinks it has some god given right to punish other sovereign alliances for deads done against non allaigned nations is seriously mistaken.

It has nothing to do with you... if DT leadership have an issue with their member they will deal with it.

And Alpha sorry mate but you have misread me, suggest you re-read my comments.

I like how you so proudly use the word "sovereign" when speaking of alliances but refuse to recognize the rights of the unaligned. What exactly is okay about tech raiding? What makes the unaligned so far below those who choose to sign up to be a part of a loose coalition? There is no difference, and I doubt you'd dismiss an attack on an aligned nation so quickly.

[kingzog]

Welcome to the world Red Team without the Revenge Doctrine.

Fixed that for you. Welcome to the real world, James. It can be scary at first, but you'll adjust.

The NPO's defense of Red Team nations was 'hit and miss' at the best of times. It required the attacked nation to go and register on the NPO's forum, for one thing. And often they were treated to a recruiting message, whether tacit or explicit: "While you're here, did you know this wouldn't happen if you joined an alliance? And did you know that the NPO is the only alliance on Red?"

The Revenge Doctrine was a PR and recruiting tactic, designed to counter the unintended consequences of the Moldavi Doctrine, which had turned Red into (primarily) a pit-stop for new players, players in-between alliances, and the crappiest trading sphere in CN.

You're thinking of the Moldavi Doctrine, which declares our sovereignty over the Red Sphere, we dropped that on our own a few months ago.

It was already a dead letter before that. Something about a charming, handsome and humble fellow who won election to the Red Senate....

@Drostan: The problem with duelling is that no alliance leader is going to allow their members to fight other active nations and stunt their growth outside of actual war. While beating on inactives or other players who can't fight back is a lot safer.

Also incorrect. I specifically pushed for a clause in Nordreich's Charter allowing for 'war games'. These may involve Nordreich members exclusively or, provided the opponent's alliance agrees, nations outside of Nordreich.

*****

During NoR's Charter discussion, I made this argument against raiding: "I've never seen a boxer say that they trained for an upcoming fight by punching out a bunch of fat kids who weren't expecting it." (I don't remember saying it, but apparently I did. Sure sounds like something I'd say, though.) Raiding is terrible practice for real war. Period.

Using it "for casualties" as this attacker apparently does is perhaps even more silly. This trend toward using casualties as a measure of one's .... what, exactly? .... is one of the dumbest ideas to infect CN.

Anyway, I think we've all seen this kind of nonsense before. Raiders using extortion. Raiding as a 'recruitment tool'. And now, 'raiding for casualties'. These are just some of the reasons why I pushed for an end to tech-raiding in Nordreich.

That being said, Myworld has handled this in the professional manner I have come to expect from him.

[King DrunkWino]

Guarantee you wouldn't be the only guy on that side of the party. Any other alliance that thinks it has some god given right to punish other sovereign alliances for deads done against non allaigned nations is seriously mistaken.

It has nothing to do with you... if DT leadership have an issue with their member they will deal with it.

And Alpha sorry mate but you have misread me, suggest you re-read my comments.

DT has an issue with their member. They discussed it in this very thread.

As to your god given rights spiel. If a sovereign alliance thinks god came down and gave them the right to grief any and everyone without a sufficient number of people to back them up, then your god is a farce.

You keep throwing around things like world police and infringing on someones sovereign rights when the bottom line is what this guy did was against the rules of his alliance and as far overboard as you can get. And for what? A few measly scraps of tech? A couple bucks? Extra casualties? Oh wait, he couldn't get any of that now could he since he decided to nuke the poor unlucky shmo who decided to turtle up. What a shame. Maybe we should show our solidarity with this greifer who just couldn't get away with greifing.

On second thought, naaaaa.

[King Wally]

look i got raided when i was first started and was unalaigned... so i fixed it... got an alliance... easy

Turned out i didn't overly like the set up there so I fixed it.. I got together with some mates and made our own alliance.

... then we got raided cause we didn't have a larger protector... fixed it... (thanks Invicta )

I've been on both sides of the fence trust me... but you didn't see me on here whinging about it, I fixed the problem like every sitting duck non-alaigned nation can. I just don't get why a nation (in this case an obviously large experianced one) is been baby'd becasue they don't want to fix up their defences? ...

(also the whole nuke thing is so you know well outside the laws of my alliance and I don't agree with it, but im not going to tell anouther alliance what they can or cant do and how to punish for it etc unless it involves an attack on one of my members.)

[Vilien]

look i got raided when i was first started and was unalaigned... so i fixed it... got an alliance... easy

Turned out i didn't overly like the set up there so I fixed it.. I got together with some mates and made our own alliance.

... then we got raided cause we didn't have a larger protector... fixed it... (thanks Invicta )

I've been on both sides of the fence trust me... but you didn't see me on here whinging about it, I fixed the problem like every sitting duck non-alaigned nation can. I just don't get why a nation (in this case an obviously large experianced one) is been baby'd becasue they don't want to fix up their defences? ...

(also the whole nuke thing is so you know well outside the laws of my alliance and I don't agree with it, but im not going to tell anouther alliance what they can or cant do and how to punish for it etc unless it involves an attack on one of my members.)

Would you complain if a larger alliance came and destroyed yours for no other reason than its own enjoyment?

[King Wally]

No I would activate our MDP's and protection treety's and get ready for war.

You wouldn't see a complaint... this is a game... i've built my nations defences as best I can and if theres a challenge then it would be met to the best of my ability. If worst came to worst i'd reroll, make a hit list and have some fun with it second time round.

[King DrunkWino]

You do realize that this entire affair is aimed at the nuking, something DT has expressed here is against their rules. Also, to the credit of DT they handled it very well and put an end to this case.

Raiding in general is an entirely new bag to open and probably one that should have a separate thread.

[King Wally]

yeah true...i think we are mixing issues I've been focused mainly on raiding in general here

[gotta23]

I think it was a bad idea but then again I don't have nukes...

[Tsar Kalashnikov]

Very well I will have 6M paid to El Diablo, however I would like to see those who threatened me to follow through. If you really can get me people who will want to fight me that's great, but from my experience no one has wanted to (and trust me, I've tried asking various players and alliances). My slots are open!

[number1supermariofan]

Oh please, stop with nonsense of a "new raid tactic" that's completely absurd, and most of you are saying this is a tech raid? Look at his war screen, tell me if it specifies it's a tech raid or even a "raid".

http://www.cybernations.net/search_wars.as...&Extended=1

Now I don't see why you guys should be commenting on a guy who nuked some person on no alliance. Seriously? How many of you guys have done like crazy wars for no absolute reason at all when you had a younger nation? Alot of you, i'm sure of that. We didn't have nukes when we were at that stage instead we had aircraft, which felt like nukes to us small nations. If he nukes what's the big deal with that? He's not starting an alliance war at all, he's simply having some CN fun. Don't tell me that his nuking was out of order, when was there order in war? And to the fact that this guy has no alliance just aids me in my response. This Icy Flame guy is at fault for having no alliance in the first place, if he had joined an alliance this would have never happened! When you put your nation with NO alliance at all you're accepting to the fact that you are WILLING to take all the dangers that can happen. I don't see why this guy should be complaining when he accepted the consequences that WILL happening when you have no alliance.

Edited July 24, 2009 by number1supermariofan

[x Tela x]

Very well I will have 6M paid to El Diablo, however I would like to see those who threatened me to follow through. If you really can get me people who will want to fight me that's great, but from my experience no one has wanted to (and trust me, I've tried asking various players and alliances). My slots are open!

Aww, how cute. Look at the big, tough guy. I bet you'd call on DT if someone with the same wonders, tech & infra decided to try you for a little 1v1 action.

I hope someone steps up and accepts this coward's challenge. (Because yes, only a coward or a fool would nuke someone for not buying soldiers)

[enderland]

During NoR's Charter discussion, I made this argument against raiding: "I've never seen a boxer say that they trained for an upcoming fight by punching out a bunch of fat kids who weren't expecting it." (I don't remember saying it, but apparently I did. Sure sounds like something I'd say, though.) Raiding is terrible practice for real war. Period.

Keep on perpetuating this myth.

I have never seen a boxer that trained by simply reading guides about how to condition and train either

[Poyplemonkeys]

I made this argument against raiding: "I've never seen a boxer say that they trained for an upcoming fight by punching out a bunch of fat kids who weren't expecting it." (I don't remember saying it, but apparently I did. Sure sounds like something I'd say, though.) Raiding is terrible practice for real war. Period.

TPF learned the battle odds formula using all of the GA odds screens provided whilst the members tech raided. Pretty useful stuff.

[King Wally]

Keep on perpetuating this myth.

I have never seen a boxer that trained by simply reading guides about how to condition and train either

I was about to say the same thing... the mother lion doesn't just send its cubs to take down a fully grown zebra when it doesn't know what to do... it finds a wounded foal and lays it down for practice... hence why raiding is the best war practice possible for new rulers. Not reading manuals imagining the fight.

also number 1 mario guy... you speak my mind mate... every word

[hizzy]

Aww, how cute. Look at the big, tough guy. I bet you'd call on DT if someone with the same wonders, tech & infra decided to try you for a little 1v1 action.

I hope someone steps up and accepts this coward's challenge. (Because yes, only a coward or a fool would nuke someone for not buying soldiers)

I don't know whether he would cry for help or not, but one thing about Tsar is he simply doesn't care, which is why he ends up being a headache not just to targets, but to his alliance.

Keep on perpetuating this myth.

I have never seen a boxer that trained by simply reading guides about how to condition and train either

Just because he's not advocating tech raiding as a good practice for war doesn't mean he thinks reading guides alone is a good substitute. You have to train with someone who fights back. Maybe even someone who hits you first. Or against 2 people simultaneously.

I have never fought in a real war where I didn't end up at one point or another fighting 3 targets or more, simultaneously. Say what you will about the merits of tech raiding, but I have NEVER heard of a tech raid that incorporated even a fraction of the strategy, planning, and timing required to fight on 3 active fronts.

Tech-raiding to "become a better warrior" in an online text-based game is the most retarded excuse I have ever heard, and quite frankly it's a load of crap. Your cruise missiles will do just as much damage regardless of how many previous times you've clicked on the "declare war" button.

BTW: Why does the guy who brags about casualties have an SDI?

[hizzy]

This Icy Flame guy is at fault for having no alliance in the first place, if he had joined an alliance this would have never happened!

I bet you're one of those dudes who thinks it's the girl's fault that she was attacked because she walked home alone. Just because you have a way of playing the game that you assume is the "normal" way, doesn't mean anyone playing differently is doing it wrong and deserves to get attacked.

Tech raiding every unaligned nation and their mother is not the standard of CN; it's the standard of greed perpetuated by the ignorance of the masses who haven't figured out how to do a tech deal yet. I clearly remember a day when nations were only allowed to tech raid unaligned nations who were 15 days inactive. This was on the premise that their resources would go to waste, which is at least logical.

Then people got greedy. "damn it, all the people who are 15 days inactive have full slots... hey lets change the rules to 10 days". 10 days became a week, and a week became "hey he has no alliance GET HIM".

And with all that, I still wouldn't give a !@#$ if it weren't for the *shockingly* high correlation between one's tendency to tech raid, and one's tendency to be a dick about it.

[enderland]

Just because he's not advocating tech raiding as a good practice for war doesn't mean he thinks reading guides alone is a good substitute. You have to train with someone who fights back. Maybe even someone who hits you first. Or against 2 people simultaneously.

I have never fought in a real war where I didn't end up at one point or another fighting 3 targets or more, simultaneously. Say what you will about the merits of tech raiding, but I have NEVER heard of a tech raid that incorporated even a fraction of the strategy, planning, and timing required to fight on 3 active fronts.

Tech-raiding to "become a better warrior" in an online text-based game is the most retarded excuse I have ever heard, and quite frankly it's a load of crap. Your cruise missiles will do just as much damage regardless of how many previous times you've clicked on the "declare war" button

People who raid (especially when you raid multiple targets simultaneously) are hands down better at coordinating, deployment managing, and timing attacks correctly than those that do not.

If three people attack me and another person, I would hands down prefer that the other person that got attacked be a tech raider and those that attacked me not have ever tech raided. In quite a few situations I would actually prefer if the three people were warring only me and not the other person (moreso in full nuclear wars than conventional wars), as having someone fighting one of your warred nations who never bothers to coordinate or time things can be a huge hinderance if they just nuke whenever they feel like it.

edit: I do not even know why I care, first this argument has come for years and is continuously repeated by those who never tech raid inspite of the most active raiders frequently saying raiding is beneficial and second I have quit CN should not care if people believe incorrect things anymore. Believe what you want, it makes no difference to me.

Edited July 24, 2009 by ender land