The GMs Court

[Lavo]

[quote name='Maelstrom Vortex' timestamp='1280964947' post='2401109']
Lol. This says the guy who leads around 106 of his own.
[/quote]
Good to know I'm a %^&!#.

[Markus Wilding]

[img]http://j.imagehost.org/0847/SpaiSappinMahGubment.png[/img]

I would like to request spy rolls on Lutai to RP an insurgency in his lands. Specifically, the former land of Coruscanta.

[Bacharth]

[quote name='Maelstrom Vortex' timestamp='1280964947' post='2401109']
Lol. This says the guy who leads around 106 of his own.
[/quote]

Heh, talk like that can really make alliances angry.

[iamthey]

[quote name='Maelstrom Vortex' timestamp='1280964947' post='2401109']
Lol. This says the guy who leads around 106 of his own.
[/quote]

That only enhances voodoo's ego. :3

[Shatner]

I was under the impression that once you rerolled, you lost the power to RP an insurgency in your former lands.

[Lynneth]

[quote name='Shatner' timestamp='1281026229' post='2401739']
I was under the impression that once you rerolled, you lost the power to RP an insurgency in your former lands.
[/quote]
If you're referring to me, where do I actually own any land on the map?
Nowhere. I haven't rerolled. I have my characters somewhere in "limbo", so to say and otherwise just control over my pop in occupied regions.

[iamthey]

[quote name='Lynneth' timestamp='1281028106' post='2401758']
If you're referring to me, where do I actually own any land on the map?
Nowhere. I haven't rerolled. I have my characters somewhere in "limbo", so to say and otherwise just control over my pop in occupied regions.
[/quote]

This is true, rping characters does not constitute a reroll.

[Yawoo]

[quote name='iamthey' timestamp='1281028891' post='2401775']
This is true, rping characters does not constitute a reroll.
[/quote]
He was referring to Markus' request.

[iamthey]

Ah, well yes if markus is rping another nation then he can't RP an insurgency. Also you don't need to use spy rolls to RP an insurgency, you can just RP it like a war (if your government just collapsed and you haven't rerolled as a new country).

Edited August 5, 2010 by iamthey

[Yawoo]

[quote name='iamthey' timestamp='1281029147' post='2401784']
Ah, well yes if markus is rping another nation then he can't RP an insurgency. Also you don't need to use spy rolls to RP an insurgency, you can just RP it like a war (if your government just collapsed and you haven't rerolled as a new country).
[/quote]
His country was destroyed - he rerolled - and now wants to RP an insurgency.

[Markus Wilding]

For all practical purposes, the government still exists - only in exile, underground, awaiting the time to strike. Nobody has RPed dearming my former soldiers nor shutting down former equipment like my Sentry guns. From what I see, there's still a people and a culture that exist in the area that I feel I can continue to RP with these spy rolls, to incite government propaganda to turn the citizens against the BPE and to join the fight to take back Coruscanta.

If I have this wrong, please inform me and I will change what I need to change.

[Triyun]

I find this kind of ridiculous. If he has re-rolled, then he loses the right to RP his old nations population. Its a horrid precedent to be able to RP insurgencies any territory you've previously been in if you have had another nation in the mean time. At a certain point you lose your right to RP those citizens.

[Subtleknifewielder]

[quote name='Maelstrom Vortex' timestamp='1280964947' post='2401109']
Lol. This says the guy who leads around 106 of his own.
[/quote]
[quote name='Lavo_2' timestamp='1280972107' post='2401216']
Good to know I'm a %^&!#.
[/quote]
You are, in a way.

[quote name='Vince Sixx' timestamp='1280984638' post='2401419']
Heh, talk like that can really make alliances angry.
[/quote]
Then they should grow thicker skins.

[quote name='iamthey' timestamp='1281004198' post='2401567']
That only enhances voodoo's ego. :3
[/quote]
True...very true.

[quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1281030898' post='2401815']
I find this kind of ridiculous. If he has re-rolled, then he loses the right to RP his old nations population. Its a horrid precedent to be able to RP insurgencies any territory you've previously been in if you have had another nation in the mean time. At a certain point you lose your right to RP those citizens.
[/quote]
Aye, except now he's trying with a spy roll, in the same manner as the precedent set by Mudd.

Edited August 5, 2010 by Subtleknifewielder

[Markus Wilding]

[quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1281030898' post='2401815']
I find this kind of ridiculous. If he has re-rolled, then he loses the right to RP his old nations population. Its a horrid precedent to be able to RP insurgencies any territory you've previously been in if you have had another nation in the mean time. At a certain point you lose your right to RP those citizens.
[/quote]
It's been a year in RP since the territory was annexed and split up. It takes much longer than a year to completely eliminate all traces of a nation and it's people, ideologies and spirit. Unless lutai has RPed washing over my culture with his that I haven't seen, I still say that my people are still there. It's not like I'm trying to retake my older nations in the area, like Damacious. Why? Because I recognize that there could be nobody who remembers it by now, having been several years in RP. Since you love real life examples, Iraq has had a different government ruling their lands for several years after we've invaded, yet the people there are still rebelling against their rule. Why is that? That's because they want the old government back, who they believe fit the nation better than the new government.

EDIT: Unless a GM tells me that this isn't possible I'm not backing down. I'm merely following examples set before me.

Edited August 5, 2010 by Markus Wilding

[JerreyRough]

Have you RP'ed keeping your soldiers armed, RP'ed them not going for a civilian life and instead waiting for the time to strike? Have you RP'ed your government in exile ever since it went into exile? No? (If you have, then ignore this and the rest of this post)

The same argument your using goes both ways. If you haven't RP'ed keeping a small insurgency alive for the past year or whatever, then how do we know it still exists? 'Course, a successful spy roll could mean that it's still there.

I sure hope you stuck to your signature's PM rule when you spy rolled .

[Markus Wilding]

[quote name='JerreyRough' timestamp='1281032315' post='2401847']
Have you RP'ed keeping your soldiers armed, RP'ed them not going for a civilian life and instead waiting for the time to strike? Have you RP'ed your government in exile ever since it went into exile? No? (If you have, then ignore this and the rest of this post)

The same argument your using goes both ways. If you haven't RP'ed keeping a small insurgency alive for the past year or whatever, then how do we know it still exists? 'Course, a successful spy roll could mean that it's still there.

I sure hope you stuck to your signature's PM rule when you spy rolled .
[/quote]
[url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=90199"]Right here.[/url] I haven't been able to RP it lately due to being forbidden to RP two entities at once, which is why it went up only today.

[Yawoo]

[quote name='Markus Wilding' timestamp='1281032597' post='2401851']
[url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=90199"]Right here.[/url] I haven't been able to RP it lately due to being forbidden to RP two entities at once, which is why it went up only today.
[/quote]
You asked for a spy roll yesterday - you can't set up an RP for a spyroll after you've already requested a spy roll. You had the chance to set all this up prior to your rerolling and you failed to do so therefore you have no IC reason nor backing to be able to RP an insurgency.

[iamthey]

[quote name='Markus Wilding' timestamp='1281030184' post='2401803']
For all practical purposes, the government still exists - only in exile, underground, awaiting the time to strike. Nobody has RPed dearming my former soldiers nor shutting down former equipment like my Sentry guns. From what I see, there's still a people and a culture that exist in the area that I feel I can continue to RP with these spy rolls, to incite government propaganda to turn the citizens against the BPE and to join the fight to take back Coruscanta.

If I have this wrong, please inform me and I will change what I need to change.
[/quote]

Right and you could have Rp'd an insurgency if you hadn't rerolled. Now that you have rerolled as another country you cannot RP an insurgency.

Mudd's insurgency was permitted by lynneth only under extremely exceptional circumstances (the fact that he was wiped, the fact that he had been rping for multiple years, and the fact that he hadn't rerolled as a new country, everyone was essentially just given permission to RP an autowin (assuming soldiers were still present to resist)).

Moreover I find the idea of people using spy rolls for an insurgency very anti-rp and pretty much just an all around awful way to run an insurgency. Insurgency should be entirely RP based with no spy rolls, and it should be only following the fall of your nation and before any reroll. So I think going back to this episode and making it a general rule would be a bad thing.

I will also add that the community held a poll on whether insurgencies would be permitted. The winning option stated that insurgencies are permissible only after the fall of the territory, and before any reroll. So while yet it is possible the entire population wasn't converted, it isn't your population to RP.

Edited August 5, 2010 by iamthey

[Markus Wilding]

[quote name='Yawoo' timestamp='1281032772' post='2401856']
You asked for a spy roll yesterday - you can't set up an RP for a spyroll after you've already requested a spy roll. You had the chance to set all this up prior to your rerolling and you failed to do so therefore you have no IC reason nor backing to be able to RP an insurgency.
[/quote]
Notice how Tanya states she's sent a message? That's a literal term - I've sent a PM to lutai asking him to give me the land or I RP a rebellion in the territory. I never said it was a spyroll RP, rather it's the setup to it.

EDIT: I see. Retract the spyrolls then.

Edited August 5, 2010 by Markus Wilding

[Triyun]

[quote name='Subtleknifewielder' timestamp='1281031390' post='2401825']
You are, in a way.


Then they should grow thicker skins.


True...very true.


Aye, except now he's trying with a spy roll, in the same manner as the precedent set by Mudd.
[/quote]

Mudd never re-rolled. His government with some of its forces, but it never gave up on retaking the mainland. His situation is analogous to when the PLO went into exile after the Israeli Invasion of Lebanon. This is not at all the same.

[Sal Paradise]

Wait, so how does this work?


He rerolled, so he's forfeit control of the people in lutai's nation. But he's allowed the spy roll to incite government propaganda... which does what? Forces lutai to RP an incitement of government propaganda? Because Markus doesn't control lutai's people, so lutai would have to RP the incitement. And couldn't he just say "15 people staged an anti-government protest today. It rained, so they went home".

Or do the rules just make no sense and we'll go along with whatever feels good.




And it's incitement of [i]government[/i] propaganda. Not [i]anti[/i]-government propaganda. So really, the spy roll only solidifies lutai's support of the former Coruscantans.

[Markus Wilding]

Is there really any more need for discussion now that I've retracted the spyrolls?

[Sal Paradise]

Yes. I want to know how it works in case it comes up again in the future.

[Subtleknifewielder]

[quote name='iamthey' timestamp='1281032868' post='2401857']
Moreover [b]I find the idea of people using spy rolls for an insurgency very anti-rp and pretty much just an all around awful way to run an insurgency[/b]. Insurgency should be entirely RP based with no spy rolls, and it should be only following the fall of your nation and before any reroll. So I think going back to this episode and making it a general rule would be a bad thing.

I will also add that the community held a poll on whether insurgencies would be permitted. The winning option stated that insurgencies are permissible only after the fall of the territory, and before any reroll. So while yet it is possible the entire population wasn't converted, it isn't your population to RP.
[/quote]
So do I. Just sayin...

[quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1281033462' post='2401867']
Mudd never re-rolled. His government with some of its forces, but it never gave up on retaking the mainland. His situation is analogous to when the PLO went into exile after the Israeli Invasion of Lebanon. This is not at all the same.
[/quote]
Point made.

[Biohazard]

I'd like to call up Martens installment of Vince. The land is still being RPd by Lynneth, even if it is occupied by coalition forces. Even if it wasn't though, it should still be illegal to install new players, when you're in the midst of a war; in this case, Martens is using Vince to buff up his stats (merged or unmerged). What does everyone else think?