Announcement From The Echelon

[astronaut jones]

Your entire 'argument' is based on what YOU view Karma to be and how YOU think that they should have handled the things YOU would have wanted them to.

I disagree that imposing terms to punitively prohibit rebuilding are necessary to change an alliance's way of thinking. You clearly do not.

I disagree that losing something like 70% their NS (IRON in particular, GGA/Valhalla too) is "nothing" and a "slap on the wrists."

Karma only exists so long as people keep saying it exists. Most of the alliances once part of it probably have no relations with their prior wartime "bloc mates" (since everyone seems to call it a bloc).

And you just proved my point, because MY version of karma differs from YOUR version of karma, or did you miss the part where I said your version seeked to usher in a new world and sought PR over punishment, and my version sough punishment over PR thus the clashing of heads by people who fought on the same side? And did you also miss where I said karma was whatever people wanted it to be because it was a means to an end, and everyone is right for the reason for wars, but the reason it failed was because, ultimately, those differing sides, those differing viewpoints on what karma is/was couldn't come together to form a common ground?

.. I think you missed a lot, sir.

[Aurion]

D) Most of the Karma forces are bad too, for their past and how they stood with NPO (even though he failed to present proof, who these alliances are and when they actually ganged up on a smaller groups of alliances presenting them with really harsh terms)....

I think he's saying that everyone is "bad" to some extent.

And yeah, that's a fairly valid point. Subjective sure, but a lot of things like that are subjective.

Edited July 6, 2009 by Aurion

[Death666Angel]

I think one of the points of karma is to disuade these people from ever actually attempting such a thing again.

I have no issue with TOP or TSO or MK or GR or TDE. If I was in charge at Echelon, I would focus on the parties most involved in crafting and enforcing these terms, because they are easy targets when fully prepared.

[Emperor Brutus]

And you just proved my point, because MY version of karma differs from YOUR version of karma, or did you miss the part where I said your version seeked to usher in a new world and sought PR over punishment, and my version sough punishment over PR thus the clashing of heads by people who fought on the same side? And did you also miss where I said karma was whatever people wanted it to be because it was a means to an end, and everyone is right for the reason for wars, but the reason it failed was because, ultimately, those differing sides, those differing viewpoints on what karma is/was couldn't come together to form a common ground?

.. I think you missed a lot, sir.

Actually your version of Karma is based on revenge, while mine is based on punishment. Your version of Karma is based on crippling the forces of "The Hegemony" while mine is giving them an opportunity to change for the better.

[enderland]

And you just proved my point, because MY version of karma differs from YOUR version of karma, or did you miss the part where I said your version seeked to usher in a new world and sought PR over punishment, and my version sough punishment over PR thus the clashing of heads by people who fought on the same side? And did you also miss where I said karma was whatever people wanted it to be because it was a means to an end, and everyone is right for the reason for wars, but the reason it failed was because, ultimately, those differing sides, those differing viewpoints on what karma is/was couldn't come together to form a common ground?

.. I think you missed a lot, sir.

If it is whatever people want it to be why do you try to generalize statements about how "karma failed?" Since if it is whatever people want it to be then it can fail/succeed in the eye of ever person who is a member of it.

It makes discussion pointless - since every single statement is solely the opinion of the person (or in some cases alliance) making the post which means that everyone is right, etc.

edit -

Actually your version of Karma is based on revenge, while mine is based on punishment. Your version of Karma is based on crippling the forces of "The Hegemony" while mine is giving them an opportunity to change for the better.

that too

Edited July 6, 2009 by ender land

[astronaut jones]

What points are they

A) Karma Failed?

B. Citadel is a group of hippies?

C) RnR and Athens dont deserve to be respected?

D) Most of the Karma forces are bad too, for their past and how they stood with NPO (even though he failed to present proof, who these alliances are and when they actually ganged up on a smaller groups of alliances presenting them with really harsh terms)....

Yeah >_> Great valid points

EDIT: Forgot one, Karma & Co pretty much gave a slap on the wrist and didn't have many casualties

Karma did fail, see my last post as to why I think it did.

I never said citadel were hippies. You're putting those words in my mouth. If I didn't say it directly, don't assume, because you should know by now that if I mean it, I say it, I don't allude to it. I don't fear saying things outright.

Respect those alliances if you will, obviously they did what they wanted to do.

I know how I come off most of the time, it's on purpose, but from time to time, when I feel like it, I do make some valid points. It's not hard to see, from the arguing in this thread and other threads of people who fought side by side, that karma was different to each and every one of them. It had different goals, different purposes, and everyone has an opinion on what it should have done, how it should have done it, and what it ultimately will have accomplished.

Everyone is right in their assessments of karma, but karma has ultimately failed because those differing sides could not come together, and instead they choose to tear each other apart.

Which I thrive upon, anyway, and I seek it out more often than not.

[Emperor Brutus]

I think he's saying that everyone is "bad" to some extent.

And yeah, that's a fairly valid point. Subjective sure, but a lot of things like that are subjective.

And I couldn't agree more with that statement, i'm just saying not all the forces "switched sides", mostly generalizing on Athens and RnR, because he referred to those two

[astronaut jones]

If it is whatever people want it to be why do you try to generalize statements about how "karma failed?" Since if it is whatever people want it to be then it can fail/succeed in the eye of ever person who is a member of it.

It makes discussion pointless - since every single statement is solely the opinion of the person (or in some cases alliance) making the post which means that everyone is right, etc.

edit -

that too

it failed because at the end of the day, the sides and the alliances it united, are tearing themselves apart (or very soon will be) because of the differences that they could not overcome.

[enderland]

Everyone is right in their assessments of karma, but karma has ultimately failed because those differing sides could not come together, and instead they choose to tear each other apart.

I still think that this is repeated over and over by some people on these boards but I have seen very little "tear[ing] apart" other than people repeating that over and over again about how "Karma is tearing itself apart omg!"

Which I thrive upon, anyway, and I seek it out more often than not.

This game wouldn't be too interesting if there were no conflicts.

[astronaut jones]

I still think that this is repeated over and over by some people on these boards but I have seen very little "tear[ing] apart" other than people repeating that over and over again about how "Karma is tearing itself apart omg!"

This game wouldn't be too interesting if there were no conflicts.

So the tension between alliances that fought on the side of karma is invisible to you? You don't see it on these boards? wow.

[enderland]

So the tension between alliances that fought on the side of karma is invisible to you? You don't see it on these boards? wow.

I see tension yes but not "tearing apart." Especially when you consider that most of what is/was Karma is no longer militarily involved in the conflict.

[TypoNinja]

So the tension between alliances that fought on the side of karma is invisible to you? You don't see it on these boards? wow.

So? Its not like we were all buddies to begin with, thats what happens with wartime coalitions, we all get involved in one side or another because of treaties, but we usually only have direct ties to a few other alliances each. I mean honestly there was what, a hundred and something Karma alliances? $%&@ I couldn't even name 100 alliances without consulting the wiki, let alone claim we had good relations (or hell any relations at all) with them.

[astronaut jones]

I see tension yes but not "tearing apart." Especially when you consider that most of what is/was Karma is no longer militarily involved in the conflict.

Well, then we differ on how bad we think the tension has gotten.

[enderland]

Well, then we differ on how bad we think the tension has gotten.

I hope I am wrong

I see tension between GOD and everyone (they always have tension though ) and Frostbite and TOP (that has also been there for a while given who is in Frostbite).

[Aurion]

And I couldn't agree more with that statement, i'm just saying not all the forces "switched sides", mostly generalizing on Athens and RnR, because he referred to those two

Well, yeah, those were the points of his that you outlined that I didn't agree with

[Kim Jaym Il]

Harsh terms? Come on, people. Echelon choose a side, and I respect them for that. I respect them for honoring their treaties. But that does not change the fact that they were our opponents, and that this has been a war in wich nukes have been regular ordnance.

So what did you expected? A great group hug? "You fried my nation with nukes, but I still love you, Twinkie Winkie"

Grown up, please. This is not Bambi.

I'm sure dictating Echelon internal affairs will greatly speed up your nations rebuilding efforts.

For those bashing Karma, what exactly do you think should happen? That NPO and its cronies, like Echelon, should be allowed to rise to their old stature and terrorize the world again, because that is preferable to the supposed terror being committed by Karma? I'm certainly open to suggestions about how to create a perfect society in CN.

Do you really consider yourself that weak? You're basically admitting that you believe that the NPO is better than you, and that you can only compete with them by keeping them down.

[TypoNinja]

Do you really consider yourself that weak? You're basically admitting that you believe that the NPO is better than you, and that you can only compete with them by keeping them down.

So by your logic the NPO has been weak for nearly its entire history because of the terms it handed out to keep people down?

You hand out terms as a victor for two reasons.

1. To insure the war does not repeat it self in short order.

2. To insure you rebuild faster than your opponents do.

Number two applies nicely to number one, If you rebuild faster than your opponent you are stronger than they and they are less likely to try coming after you again in the near future.

[Vol Navy]

Congrats on finding a way off the battlefield Echelon. Good luck in paying off these terms.

Karma of course is exactly what I and many have said it would be for months, a propaganda front for people seeking power and revenge. Not at all about setting new precedents, forging a new Bob where losing a war meant losing your very right to even choose your own govt...etc

But the single eternal rule on Bob is that everyone will eventually get their beating and these terms will likely be remembered when it's those who gave them out on the bad side of things.

[Zhord]

these terms suck, echelon have 26 nations who are aloud to pay there combined 34k + 300M reps. That 1300 tech per nation while none of the others can rebuild by selling tech, or a least keeping the loose change from reps.

Congratulations Karma you have brought the game to a new low.

[Petrovich4]

I am absolutely bewildered and angry that the 'Caffine Term' is in the OP. Please correct me if wrong, but without justification (i.e. giving reasons why) of that term being placed there, many people have been angered and flabbergasted.

Just as Stumpy has said, there is no way in hell that term should be included.

Poor show.

[Krashnaia]

Fortunately no one cares what you think.

Another one who cares about what Jones say.

[Elderago]

how do you guys expect them to pay those reps they went from over 6mil in strength to barely over 750 k ?, whats worse is that only 12 out of what ? 62 nations (formally 150 before the war I believe) are over 20 k ns ...

I may have fought them but this was not an honourable war, I stopped attacking after I found that most of the nations that I was attacking had given up....

that said I applaud Athens for doing tech deals giving them a chance and R&R well for just being classy.

[Kim Jaym Il]

So by your logic the NPO has been weak for nearly its entire history because of the terms it handed out to keep people down?

I thought a main point of this war was to stop emulating the NPO?

To answer your question, yes. Fear has been a large part of terms over the last few years, fear that an opponent will attempt to return as a challenge in the future, and as such alliances such as the NPO have been annihilating the opposition to prevent that from ever happening.

If an alliance is truly worth it's salt, it would be able to take them down all over again, unless of course they don't actually seek retribution, in which case there's nothing to worry about.

[Emperor Brutus]

Another one who cares about what Jones say.

Lol nice attempt at getting Red Senate

"Vote for me in the Red Team Senate elections. Because now that the NPO is screwed every techraider in planet Bob is targetting the Red Sphere and you need someone that can stop it. Free cookies for everyone if I win. Monos Archein ID: 97 "

--------

Karma seemed split before the war began, It was put together for some to punish those who committed crimes against the alliances and people of CN, but for others it was a method to seek revenge. Those who came in with the wrong reasons will leave disappointed.... or at least I wish. At this time we need to put the past behind us looking forward into the future, and doing that is seen in this thread but re-instating the past and bringing it to the present field should not be done. These terms do not suit what was fought for on the right front but rather the hot hotheadedness of a few officials wishing to seek a source of revenge and cripple and alliance for eternity.

Edited July 6, 2009 by Emperor Brutus

[enderland]

And you would be right in your own mind, but you are completely and utterly wrong in mine. That's karma for ya, baby.

Fortunately no one cares what you think.

I think this response did not come across the way I had intended - when I posted it I had intended it to be a joke along the lines of "karma" about not caring about posts being karma-ish or something but looking back, I cannot seem to actually understand why that was funny (or how the joke even was supposed to have worked ><).

Apologies to astronaut jones.