Articles of American Sovereignty and Self Determination

[HHAYD]

Ah, but I have said, numerous times in fact, that those who sign the Articles would be heavily pressured to give up any overseas holdings, if any, and that those who signed the Articles would apply pressure on American nations who didn't sign to give up overseas holdings. Reading comprehension is your friend, but, then again, we haven't come to expect anything more from a government who couldn't defeat a bunch of poo-flinging terrorists on their own.

You should update your article before one of the signers try to lawyer out of the rule violation.

Edited July 5, 2009 by HHAYD

[Michael McBride]

You should update your article before one of the signers try to lawyer out of the rule violation. Our government communication channel can only handle so much other governments' messages coming in and out.

That is your problem then, not ours. And those who have signed understand the spirit and the letter of the Articles, and their signing says to us that they will not violate either.

[HHAYD]

That is your problem then, not ours. And those who have signed understand the spirit and the letter of the Articles, and their signing says to us that they will not violate either.

Ardoria owns a chunk of land in Antarctica, and we believe that they are using it for research. Are you going to boot Ardoria's research settlements out of Antarctica if they sign the article?

Edited July 5, 2009 by HHAYD

[Michael McBride]

Ardoria owns a chunk of land in Antarctica, and we believe that they are using it for research. Are you going to boot Ardoria's research settlements out of Antarctica if they sign the article?

If they sign, we would ask them to send their scientists through another nation's research stations and not hold/own the land, yes.

[Michael McBride]

After discussions with the Rebel Army government, it seems the rest of the world is mistaken. Ecuador is it's own territory, governed by it's own people and customs. Therefore, the Ecuadorian territory does not conflict with AASSD, and talks of it further are discouraged.

[Raritan]

After discussions with the Rebel Army government, it seems the rest of the world is mistaken. Ecuador is it's own territory, governed by it's own people and customs. Therefore, the Ecuadorian territory does not conflict with AASSD, and talks of it further are discouraged.

And thus we open another can of worms: What is the definition of a colony?

[Michael McBride]

And thus we open another can of worms: What is the definition of a colony?

We define a colony as "any people or territory separated from but subject to a ruling power." Ecuador does not fall into this category because they are ruled by themselves, not Rebel Army.

OOC: Speak to iamthey.

[Lavo]

Ecuador does not fall into this category because they are ruled by themselves, not Rebel Army.

OOC: This is true. Any and all domestic affairs of Ecuador is handled by the local/state/whatever you want to call it government they have their own taxes, police force, etc.

[iamthey]

OOC:

IC: It appears there has been some mis-understanding on both sides of this argument. This "military base" that our representatives have been speaking of is in fact simply an expanded embassy withs some... defensive isntallations and a... docking location for "diplomatic" ships. And an airport for... "diplomatic" air craft. Which as you stated is clearly allowed under the doctrine. Moreover our civilian port was in fact not actually owned by the Alliance it is in fact an Ardorian port, but is simply largely administered by the Alliance and used at a nominal fee. We apologize for our part in the mix up. Appropriate paper work has been refiled with the Ardorian government, we can fax copies to your own office verifying this.

[Michael McBride]

We see that the mistake was on our part as well. Obviously embassies are allowed as a part of diplomacy. We have no further issue with the Norfolk Embassy for the Alliance.

[Manetheren]

Non-American nations have no place in this discussion. When we first cited the Alliance for violating the O'Deaghaidh Doctrine (now superseded by this treaty), they graciously agreed to surrender their colony, only keeping a small military base and diplomatic station around Norfolk. As we have stated numerous times, Equador is not a grandfathered exception so much as an expanded protectorate of the RA where its citizens are granted citizenship. We would appreciate it in the future that non-American nations come to us privately with concerns or questions about this document.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

Would the Aleutian Islands be considered American?

Yamato.. if you keep probing the world for places you can takeover.. people are going to get seriously angry with you. I mean.. I've so far acted with restraint.. but what will satisfy you? The world? Is there any hemisphere safe from your hands or desires?

[iamthey]

Yamato.. if you keep probing the world for places you can takeover.. people are going to get seriously angry with you. I mean.. I've so far acted with restraint.. but what will satisfy you? The world? Is there any hemisphere safe from your hands or desires?

"Considering that the dragon empire nearly occupies almost an entire continent, and has a bloc doubling its size and strength I don't think it is really proper to criticize yamoto for expansionism. Who is ever really ever satisfied? Don't we not all wish to expand, to push our respective empires to their edges? Its not a criticism its merely an observation." - Thomas Devereaux

[Maelstrom Vortex]

"I am going to make this point again, as I have in other places. The Dragon Empire has not "expanded" since Dragonisia claimed India. What has happened is other states have willingly joined the Empire. That is not expansionism, that is the formation of national community. We haven't gone outside our borders except once, and that was to break up Inodchina when it was discovered they may be co-operating with terrorists responsible for nuclear terrorism in Pakistan. Since that time, Dragonisia has only gone down in land holdings, including its recent secession of Tasmania to Greater Aotearoan dominion."

"The facts are there on the maps and in recorded history as plain as the eye can see. We have fostered governments to come to power who are sovereign and independent in our protectorates. We have not saught to claim our protectorates. We have more than a right to criticize Yamato. If they were say, joining up with another country for the sake of peaceful co-operation, then we would have no gripe. This isn't the type of expansion they have engendered to this date. Anything else is just a misunderstanding, misinformation, or propaganda. Of late though, in my benevolence, I've come to assume the best in people so I hope this information is enlightening, Mr. Devereaux."

-Maelstrom

Edited July 6, 2009 by Maelstrom Vortex

[king of cochin]

"Considering that the dragon empire nearly occupies almost an entire continent, and has a bloc doubling its size and strength I don't think it is really proper to criticize yamoto for expansionism. Who is ever really ever satisfied? Don't we not all wish to expand, to push our respective empires to their edges? Its not a criticism its merely an observation." - Thomas Devereaux

Dragon Empire came into prominence through amalgamation, not coercion. Every nation has a secret agenda for expansion, but never as aggressively or as deviously as Yamato.

[iamthey]

"I am going to make this point again, as I have in other places. The Dragon Empire has not "expanded" since Dragonisia claimed India. What has happened is other states have willingly joined the Empire. That is not expansionism, that is the formation of national community. We haven't gone outside our borders except once, and that was to break up Inodchina when it was discovered they may be co-operating with terrorists responsible for nuclear terrorism in Pakistan. Since that time, Dragonisia has only gone down in land holdings, including its recent secession of Tasmania to Greater Aotearoan dominion."

"The facts are there on the maps and in recorded history as plane as the eye can see. We have fostered governments to come to power who are sovereign and independent in our protectorates. We have not saught to claim our protectorates. We have more than a right to criticize Yamato. If they were say, joining up with another country for the sake of peaceful co-operation, then we would have no gripe. This isn't the type of expansion they have engendered to this date. Anything else is just a misunderstanding, misinformation, or propaganda. Of late though, in my benevolence, I've come to assume the best in people so I hope this information is enlightening, Mr. Devereaux."

-Maelstrom

*private response to Maelstorm*

"I believe ours is merely a difference in perspective. Your nation has expanded by way of the legal process typified by the social construct known as a treaty. While you have not used force you have engaged in an equally aggressive, and perhaps more effective means of expansion through the use of duologue, negotiation, and political rhetoric. Through a bloodless, and unseen theoretical war you have been able to align Asia to your own agenda by manifesting a coalition that is characterized by peaceful existence, and independent international policy. As this is attractive to any nation that isn't already imperialistic in nature you were able to capture up the peaceful Asian nation,s leaving only the aggressive or too independently minded nations outside of your control. In short while nations like yamato inspire fear you offer security, and those caught in the middle have to choose between the two. Take the present situation that just transpired with the Yamoto ultimatum; he couldn't take yamoto on his own so obviously his only real choice, though he capitulated, is to appeal to you. Whether you have intended it or not the dragon empire is the hegemon of the world, and is to date the largest nation in history. I mean, when you are involved in multiple peace talks totally outside your region and nations look to you as a mediator in their problems I don't think anyone can really deny your position as the dominant party in the world.

Contrast to this Yamoto merely brings a different means of expansion to the table, that of violence and war. Rather than using duologue they use bullets, and instead of a bloc and a political agenda they carry a spear. My point wasn't to insult you, as my own nation has expanded in this same way, it was simply to say that it shouldn't surprise you that yamoto is looking to expand as this same policy, though very differently executed has been carried out by your own nation. There is nothing wrong with expansion, and there is no functional difference between violent, and diplomatic conquest. While I may condemn a nation such as yamoto, as that is what is expected in this puppet court of the world; I do not really judge any nation because I realize they are functionally no different than any of us. So while I am certain you have the best of intentions and the most benevolence of rule; I personally don't really give much weight to intentions and simply look at the reality through an ends based analysis. Perhaps that puts my own comments earlier back into context." -Thomas Deveraux

[LeVentNoir]

Hmm. Aotearoa finds the views expressed here highly amusing. Refusal to accept that geographically lands owned by american nations are not on the american continent. Dropping the disapproval of the Rebel Army colony in ecuador, and a dismissive hand-wave of other complaints. This is nothing more than a highly one sided hypocritical set of Articles with the one purpose of selectively removing nations with legitimate claims to american continental land from their sovereign territory, while ignoring complains about American nations who have exactly the same relationship with their lands outside of the American continent.

I have seen Arrogance and Obnoxiousness like this before, and I can say, never has it ended well for those involved.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

*private response to Maelstorm*

"I believe ours is merely a difference in perspective. Your nation has expanded by way of the legal process typified by the social construct known as a treaty. While you have not used force you have engaged in an equally aggressive, and perhaps more effective means of expansion through the use of duologue, negotiation, and political rhetoric. Through a bloodless, and unseen theoretical war you have been able to align Asia to your own agenda by manifesting a coalition that is characterized by peaceful existence, and independent international policy. As this is attractive to any nation that isn't already imperialistic in nature you were able to capture up the peaceful Asian nation,s leaving only the aggressive or too independently minded nations outside of your control. In short while nations like yamato inspire fear you offer security, and those caught in the middle have to choose between the two. Take the present situation that just transpired with the Yamoto ultimatum; he couldn't take yamoto on his own so obviously his only real choice, though he capitulated, is to appeal to you. Whether you have intended it or not the dragon empire is the hegemon of the world, and is to date the largest nation in history. I mean, when you are involved in multiple peace talks totally outside your region and nations look to you as a mediator in their problems I don't think anyone can really deny your position as the dominant party in the world.

Contrast to this Yamoto merely brings a different means of expansion to the table, that of violence and war. Rather than using duologue they use bullets, and instead of a bloc and a political agenda they carry a spear. My point wasn't to insult you, as my own nation has expanded in this same way, it was simply to say that it shouldn't surprise you that yamoto is looking to expand as this same policy, though very differently executed has been carried out by your own nation. There is nothing wrong with expansion, and there is no functional difference between violent, and diplomatic conquest. While I may condemn a nation such as yamoto, as that is what is expected in this puppet court of the world; I do not really judge any nation because I realize they are functionally no different than any of us. So while I am certain you have the best of intentions and the most benevolence of rule; I personally don't really give much weight to intentions and simply look at the reality through an ends based analysis. Perhaps that puts my own comments earlier back into context." -Thomas Deveraux

"Astute observation and an exact synopsis. Bravo. I cannot refute a word of this." -The Chairman

[Michael McBride]

Hmm. Aotearoa finds the views expressed here highly amusing. Refusal to accept that geographically lands owned by american nations are not on the american continent. Dropping the disapproval of the Rebel Army colony in ecuador, and a dismissive hand-wave of other complaints. This is nothing more than a highly one sided hypocritical set of Articles with the one purpose of selectively removing nations with legitimate claims to american continental land from their sovereign territory, while ignoring complains about American nations who have exactly the same relationship with their lands outside of the American continent.

I have seen Arrogance and Obnoxiousness like this before, and I can say, never has it ended well for those involved.

Again, we asked for you to show us any piece of history for the past one hundred fifty years where the Hawaiian Islands were not considered a part of the North American continent. You have failed to do so. You have made these accusations, the burden of proof lies with you, sir. Ecuador is not a colony, it is an autonomous region run by its own people, as has been confirmed by our research and by the Rebel Army government. The Alliance's "colony" is an embassy under Ardorian law, and therefore protected diplomatic space. Neither one of these violate the Articles.

The next time you try stirring up trouble for North America for imperialistic means, please try harder.

[Subtleknifewielder]

Again, we asked for you to show us any piece of history for the past one hundred fifty years where the Hawaiian Islands were not considered a part of the North American continent. You have failed to do so. You have made these accusations, the burden of proof lies with you, sir. Ecuador is not a colony, it is an autonomous region run by its own people, as has been confirmed by our research and by the Rebel Army government. The Alliance's "colony" is an embassy under Ardorian law, and therefore protected diplomatic space. Neither one of these violate the Articles.

The next time you try stirring up trouble for North America for imperialistic means, please try harder.

Are they not, however, still considered citizens of Rebel Army? Are they not protected by at least a modest amount of Rebel Army's military might?"

"In any case, we are glad the American Powers have seen reason and have finally agreed on a definition that allows for peaceful enforcement of these articles."

[Michael McBride]

Are they not, however, still considered citizens of Rebel Army? Are they not protected by at least a modest amount of Rebel Army's military might?"

"In any case, we are glad the American Powers have seen reason and have finally agreed on a definition that allows for peaceful enforcement of these articles."

According to Rebel Army, they are citizens of Ecuador and they are protected by their own military made up of Ecuadorians. We have no reason to doubt the validity of those statements.

[Subtleknifewielder]

And yet they are labeled on most maps as "Rebel Army."

OOC: Which is nothing but the truth. Look at the global map...

[Sargun II]

Who gives a !@#$ if they're labeled on a map as Rebel Army?

OOC: actually, it should be Ecuador (Rebel Army) - so your argument here still falls flat

[Manetheren]

And yet they are labeled on most maps as "Rebel Army."

OOC: Which is nothing but the truth. Look at the global map...

Most maps? And what international cartographic organization do you represent?

[Subtleknifewielder]

Who gives a !@#$ if they're labeled on a map as Rebel Army?

OOC: actually, it should be Ecuador (Rebel Army) - so your argument here still falls flat

OC: Not really, when they still have "Rebel Army" in their name. And they still fight for Rebel Army if it gets attacked...

IC: No one. We are simply stating facts.

Most maps? And what international cartographic organization do you represent?

We have not said we represent anyone. However, maps not just from our nation, but many nations from all continents with whom we have contact, are labelled as thus.