NPO's Reps - An attempted unbiased View

[Vladimir]

What Karma perceives us to have done and what we have done are clearly two separate, if overlapping, categories. But regardless, I think our counter-offer was incredibly reasonable, even generous -- billions upon billions upon billions upon billions more cash and hundreds upon hundreds of thousands more tech than ever paid before in reparations (indeed, more than any alliance has ever taken or paid in the combined course of over three years never mind in one sitting). Though regardless of what is arrived at we will be rebuilding for many years to come; contrary to Karma fear we aren't magic, and can't wish ourselves better the day after the war ends.

[Prince Yvl]

Another hypothetical I've been tossing around in my head - What if the 2 weeks of war were non-nuclear? Not that I don't want NPO to be completely broken and beaten, but I want this war t o come to an end already.

Edited June 13, 2009 by Prince Yvl

[TypoNinja]

Another hypothetical I've been tossing around in my head - What if the 2 weeks of war were non-nuclear? Not that I don't want NPO to be completely broken and beaten, but I want this war t o come to an end already.

Peace would be nice, I'm getting a little bored with knocking tech off ZI'd NPO nations one CM at a time.

[Waterana]

I guess it depends on how much in terms of role playing you do or try to do. In my case, my IC self is appalled by those terms since they're just gonna lead to further wars. My OOC self is a little more understanding. The NPO has a whole lot of blood on their hands from over the years and I honestly think that the folks fighting them right now realize that unless the NPO is crushed right here and now, it won't be long before the NPO comes for vengeance.

So, if you are trying to put some sort of differences between your IC nation ruler and OOC player, I'm just saying that this particular forum is more of an OOC place where the player can talk as opposed to AP where the IC nation ruler is your voice.

This massive fear that we're going to rebuild too quickly and come looking for vengeance is so funny. How exactly are we going to do that?

Our alliance is crushed. Our allies mostly gone. Q is gone. Agora is gone. OV is mostly gone. So are you lot really peeing your Depends in terror over some sort of fantasy that we'll rebuild, even back to number 1 status, and fight 2 thirds of bob again, on our own? Seriously, think about it and get a grip.

[KingSuck]

This massive fear that we're going to rebuild too quickly and come looking for vengeance is so funny. How exactly are we going to do that?

Our alliance is crushed. Our allies mostly gone. Q is gone. Agora is gone. OV is mostly gone. So are you lot really peeing your Depends in terror over some sort of fantasy that we'll rebuild, even back to number 1 status, and fight 2 thirds of bob again, on our own? Seriously, think about it and get a grip.

but what about GW1?

Seriously though, those terms are horrific.

[Prince Yvl]

This massive fear that we're going to rebuild too quickly and come looking for vengeance is so funny. How exactly are we going to do that?

Our alliance is crushed. Our allies mostly gone. Q is gone. Agora is gone. OV is mostly gone. So are you lot really peeing your Depends in terror over some sort of fantasy that we'll rebuild, even back to number 1 status, and fight 2 thirds of bob again, on our own? Seriously, think about it and get a grip.

I have to say, though we may be enemies, I definitely agree with you. We let OG off easy because we knew that their political stock was close to zero, and that any punishment we gave to them would just be arbitrary.

Then again, we can't take chances.

[TypoNinja]

I have to say, though we may be enemies, I definitely agree with you. We let OG off easy because we knew that their political stock was close to zero, and that any punishment we gave to them would just be arbitrary.

Then again, we can't take chances.

Its not so much fear as "they said they would."

NPO has frequently and publicly expressed its desire to gain revenge for any slight, no matter how long it takes. With an attitude like that, is it any wonder we are not inclined to be generous when it comes to surrender terms?

[KingSuck]

Its not so much fear as "they said they would."

NPO has frequently and publicly expressed its desire to gain revenge for any slight, no matter how long it takes. With an attitude like that, is it any wonder we are not inclined to be generous when it comes to surrender terms?

You do realise that that line of thinking is directly parallel to the one that the NPO used with FAN right? The one they were repeatedly condemned for?

[TypoNinja]

You do realise that that line of thinking is directly parallel to the one that the NPO used with FAN right? The one they were repeatedly condemned for?

You missed the point, telling someone you are going to kick their $@! as soon as you get the chance is not the best way to convince that person to be nice to you.

[Waterana]

Its not so much fear as "they said they would."

NPO has frequently and publicly expressed its desire to gain revenge for any slight, no matter how long it takes. With an attitude like that, is it any wonder we are not inclined to be generous when it comes to surrender terms?

Talk is talk not action. Come on, take a close look at the state of the NPO right now, both militarily and politically. Do you honestly believe we'll have the capacity, even if given white peace (yes, I know that won't happen, is only for argument's sake) to carry out any sort of 'revenge' driven attacks on any of you. Especially considering we have few allies left, most of bob don't want to know us, and the bulk of karma are allied to each other seven ways from sunday, so any attack on one of you would be bound to bring the rest in, again.

It isn't 06 anymore, GW1 is long over, and the political scene on bob now is a lot different to what it was back then. This abject terror from a lot of you of us rising up and destroying you is laughable at best.

Edited June 13, 2009 by Waterana

[Vladimir]

You missed the point, telling someone you are going to kick their $@! as soon as you get the chance is not the best way to convince that person to be nice to you.

Phew. Good thing we have never said that. Indeed, I pointed out how silly this was here.

[TypoNinja]

Phew. Good thing we have never said that. Indeed, I pointed out how silly this was here.

Yes of course, you've stopped saying it recently, even you are not that stupid, but a few weeks of quiet doesn't change years of public policies. If you expect the world to believe you've changed its going to take a lot more than a press release to convince people.

Edit: your link, is a different point. Nobody is worried about what will happen next week, were thinking months down the road.

Edited June 14, 2009 by TypoNinja

[Vladimir]

We always said that if you attacked us we would attack you, but that is what this war is. I don't remember us saying 'if you beat us in war we'll attack you later on', because we never discussed losing a war to begin with. And, as I pointed out in the linked post, the entire idea that we could seek revenge of any sort even if we wanted to is patently absurd -- it'd be us against the entire world and, as has recently been demonstrated, the odds aren't on our side in that one.

[HeinousOne]

Talk is talk not action. Come on, take a close look at the state of the NPO right now, both militarily and politically. Do you honestly believe we'll have the capacity, even if given white peace (yes, I know that won't happen, is only for argument's sake) to carry out any sort of 'revenge' driven attacks on any of you. Especially considering we have few allies left, most of bob don't want to know us, and the bulk of karma are allied to each other seven ways from sunday, so any attack on one of you would be bound to bring the rest in, again.

It isn't 06 anymore, GW1 is long over, and the political scene on bob now is a lot different to what it was back then. This abject terror from a lot of you of us rising up and destroying you is laughable at best.

Nah, you are more likely to try and disappear into the background and allow the future powers that be to focus upon each other.

[unruly]

the xx months calculations appear to overlook three factors

a- non-nuclear war for the interval: who would want to nuke the cow they're milking?

also the background radiation hurts Karma

b- shipping $ and tech in parallel

c- Federal Aid Commissions to raise the throughput

Edited June 14, 2009 by unruly

[KingSuck]

You missed the point, telling someone you are going to kick their $@! as soon as you get the chance is not the best way to convince that person to be nice to you.

no no I got the point perfectly.

why don't you mull over it for a while; I'm sure it'll come to you

[toto]

the xx months calculations appear to overlook three factors

a- non-nuclear war for the interval: who would want to nuke the cow their milking?

also the background radiation hurts Karma

b- shipping $ and tech in parallel

c- Federal Aid Commissions to raise the throughput

a- The people who want them to suffer, rather than pay with no war at all

b-Taken into account, also the 1k tech restriction.

c- NPO has 11 of these.

[Qaianna]

the xx months calculations appear to overlook three factors

a- non-nuclear war for the interval: who would want to nuke the cow their milking?

also the background radiation hurts Karma

b- shipping $ and tech in parallel

c- Federal Aid Commissions to raise the throughput

A: *snicker* *snort* *laugh* It looks like a rather sizable number of people do. Besides, nukes are just another weapon of war, isn't that what people keep saying these days? And..um, seriously, the last time I saw someone try to discuss caps on GRL, the call was to push it high enough it was past sanctioned alliance scores. They succeeded, too.

B: Perfectly logical. I was ready to send like that if I was asked to make the payments.

C: Federal Aid Commissions. Well, assuming EVERYONE in Karma who wants rep payments gets these too. And assuming you're able to say that with a straight face considering the last time an alliance bought those up how it was greeted.

[Drai]

Re read the terms sande, it wont be 181 people, the terms state that the reps can be paid by those nations with equal too or over 1k tech at the end of the 14 day mandatory war beatdown.

not the 181 members now.

soo at the end of the 14 day mandatory beatdown war their might be say 7 or 8 people over or near 1k tech

What? I think you need to re-read the terms

Edited June 14, 2009 by Drai

[Baldr]

NPO is not paying reps as they seem to have quite a huge problem with doing so. i thought that was the point of this thread here.

NPO offered to pay even larger reps. NPO offered an extra billion. The size of the reps are not the problem. They are large, and will take some time to pay back, but they can be done.

The problem is the "let us nuke your banks for an undetermined period of time plus two weeks, then pay exorbitant reps while we tie your hands behind your back. Only certain nations can pay reps, 1/2 your aid slot must always be used to send Karma reps, no doing tech deals with non NPO nations, no outside aid, and if you don't meet your minimum payments, we start nuking you again".

Get rid of all the rules that are designed to nuke our banks down to nothing and to limit who can pay, and I'm sure there will be an agreement.

The offer as it stands, well, as a front line soldier, I think we would be better off to spend another year at war. I don't think we can meet the terms that we were offered, so we would have to let you nuke our banks, we would start making payments, we would miss one of the "minimum payment" things (due to the limitations on who is allowed to make the payments), and Karma would start nuking again. We don't gain anything from that scenario, and we'd still be at war. May as well stay at war now and save our banks.

If your banks are carrying such small war chests that two weeks of war renders them poverty bound, you are doing it wrong.

Of the nations who are allowed to pay the reps, not all are banks. Maybe a quarter of them. Of the nations that are allowed to pay reps, 1/3 are under 1100 infra. 1/6th of them are sitting right at the ZI mark, right now. People who are sitting at ZI are expected to pay these enormous reps, and you can't understand why it won't work.

i do believe that the first bolded two words and the bolded sentence have been largely ignored by NPO and in fact everyone it seems, in this argument. Thus, if it is deemed impossible by Karma that NPO can pay 300k tech and $7 billion then the numbers will be lowered.

Right. As long as the NPO trusts Karma, then everything will be fine. Karma doesn't hate the NPO, and wouldn't expect the impossible. Nobody from Karma wants to completely destroy the NPO and make the terms impossible. Sure. Got it.

Your forgetting why this term was included, its targeting the nations that have not fought this war, your front page rankings contains only one man under 10k infra and hes at 9k, most are more like 13k. With one truly impressive 19k infra on him.

The nations who *have* fought this war have already been nuked down. The whole "None of the big NPO nations ever fought, just look at their top nations, they are all in PM" thing is just plain stupid.

Unfortunately, exploring options like that is something the NPO threw out the airlock when they ran to the OWF instead of saying "hey all of em at once? what about just keeping a list?" They went for the PR stunt instead of a real solution.

The NPO made a counteroffer, and was told "These terms are non negotiable". Since Moo made the original post which you call PR, Londo has repeatedly posted in the threads here "These terms are non negotiable". Yet you feel it's all the NPO's fault for not negotiating.

[TypoNinja]

They are non-negotiable because moo was addressing a messenger not a negotiator, not to belittle Londo's efforts here, but he can't speak for all 18 alliances he can only tell the NPO what the 18 alliances have agreed on.

[askani the rotund]

Nah, you are more likely to try and disappear into the background and allow the future powers that be to focus upon each other.

No argument there,Isn't this what everyone in Karma preferred we do?

[HeinousOne]

No argument there,Isn't this what everyone in Karma preferred we do?

I don't think its a matter of what people want but what has been necessary for NPO to do since before this war. Now, in this weakened state it will be easier for you guys.

[askani the rotund]

I don't think its a matter of what people want but what has been necessary for NPO to do since before this war. Now, in this weakened state it will be easier for you guys.

I think you and I agree.Whether it's by force or choice I think we should sit out and watch someone else run things awhile.

[Baldr]

They are non-negotiable because moo was addressing a messenger not a negotiator, not to belittle Londo's efforts here, but he can't speak for all 18 alliances he can only tell the NPO what the 18 alliances have agreed on.

He's the messenger. If the messenger says both privately and publicly "Terms are not negotiable", then there isn't much NPO can do about that. That's Karma's deal.

Moo attempted to negotiate, yet you are accusing him of not attempting it.