Sileath and NSO

[Sileath]

There appears to be some unresolved issues between myself and New Sith Order. This thread exists so myself and NSO can each express their sides and after the airing of grievances is complete, we can all move on.

In this thread I am not representing Athens in the slightest, just as myself as a former member of NSO.

NpO, this doesn't concern you.

STA, I apologize for this post being in your State of the Alliance thread, that wasn't the place for it. I have nothing but o/ for you. Assuming you accept my apology for that post, this also doesn't concern you.

Here are some of the issues I have with NSO. If you're going to reply and address these issues specifically, please use numbers so everything looks and stays all organized.

1. Lack of communication from the government. This has been by far my #1 issue since I was head of Internal Affairs, and I had worked hard to make sure that government operations were being divulged to the citizenry in a timely matter. Following my departure from that role, communication from the government to the people was drastically reduced.

2. Ivan Moldavi said several times that NSO would not be signing treaty blocs. Terra-Cotta Pact was a treaty bloc, though it was a color sphere thing and the citizenry could see the negotiations taking place in the Brown alliance embassies.

3. Frostbite - a treaty bloc. This bloc was not at all talked about to the general NSO public. Having a treaty with STA and NpO are completely understandable and justified - no person in NSO would oppose them due to the history of those alliances and the NSO. Still, due to how many times that Ivan said that NSO would not be signing into treaty blocs its curious that such a dramatic change in paradigm of a leader would occur without the knowledge of the citizenry.

3a. This does not mean I oppose treaty blocs, just that if a leader says something over and over and it's a big issue with them, and then they completely reverse themselves, the people should know about it at least a few minutes before it hits the OWF.

4. Holy good gravy, people brought all their biases with them in NSO. The GGA-Athens-NPO thread was a mess. (I'm not including TPF because noone doubted mhawk's account of the events). We're talking about people screaming and swearing at me in the NSO channel because I'm refusing to automatically take an anti-GGA stance. In the history of NSO, GGA has never done anything against NSO. In fact, GGA assisted NSO by taking LadyDakota off of their ZI list so they could join. And I'm getting flamed to hell because of the position I'm taking in this thread searching for the truth (posting screenshots, putting together the evidence, instead of saying "OMG GGA FAILS CAUSE THEY'RE GGA") and it's like the biggest betrayal to them.

5. What's with the treaty with The Liquor Cabinet? You know their Theodore Roosevelt (what's the equivalent of that rank?) RandomInterrupt, like two days after he leaves NSO, publicly insults NSO for accepting baseballer as a member and says he'll laugh when baseballer fails.

6. The whole concept of government making decisions without telling the citizenry - I'm not even saying the people should have a choice, just for them to know - and then distracting them with shiny objects (the Frostbite sig) so they can go on a mass hail fest seems a little... yeah, a little NPO.

7. My Sileathonomics thread on these forums did not concern NSO to the degree to which I was insulted within it. That is the biggest motivation for this thread.

I suck, etc - let's hear it NSO, get it all out in the open because you know I like to keep things public.

Once it's all been said and gotten out in the open, we can move on, you guys as a great alliance, and me in Athens keeping it real with the convenienct free speech clause in the constitution.

In case it's not very clear - this is not the place for statements about Athens. Air your grievances about me all you want, but Athens has done nothing to deserve your disrespect.

[bbrownso]

you were one of the few people I liked in NSO because you weren't a party line rabble-rouser. Sorry you aren't on the bets of terms with NSO. Don't let it get you down.

[Tygaland]

I will say 5 things:

1. Your apology in our SoA thread is accepted.

2. I also was anti-bloc treaty until this bloc began to take shape. Things change and as a leader of an alliance I make decisions based on the best interests of my alliance. As we were already allied to the NpO, NSO and, by way of their protectorate treaty with the the NpO, tLC, the bloc made little difference to our foreign affairs situation other than formalise the bond between the four alliances.

3. Is NSO a democracy? (I'm honestly asking but I'm assuming not). If not then the people who are charged with leading the alliance make decisions. I'll also add that this bloc come together over a few days not weeks or months which means there was a short time between it being raised and the treaty being signed.

4. I don't really think making a thread like this is going to do you any favours. You are free to do so, of course, but I really don't think it is going to resolve anything between you and the NSO, just make it worse.

5. Best of luck in your new alliance.

Edited May 28, 2009 by Tygaland

[Francesca]

I have a level of respect for NSO, but I can understand your concerns, and sadly decent people often have issues with one another. Have fun in Athens.

[Margrave]

Tyga, thanks for bein' classy.

Sil, as I said in IRC: We could have fought this out on the forums, mang.

[Sileath]

I will say 5 things:

1. Your apology in our SoA thread is accepted.

2. I also was anti-bloc treaty until this bloc began to take shape. Things change and as a leader of an alliance I make decisions based on the best interests of my alliance. As we were already allied to the NpO, NSO and, by way of their protectorate treaty with the the NpO, tLC, the bloc made little difference to our foreign affairs situation other than formalise the bond between the four alliances.

3. Is NSO a democracy? (I'm honestly asking but I'm assuming not). If not then the people who are charged with leading the alliance make decisions. I'll also add that this bloc come together over a few days not weeks or months which means there was a short time between it being raised and the treaty being signed.

4. I don't really think making a thread like this is going to do you any favours. You are free to do so, of course, but I really don't think it is going to resolve anything between you and the NSO, just make it worse.

5. Best of luck in your new alliance.

1. I appreciate that. o/

2. I did not personally perceive a friendship existing between NSO and tLC. I completely understand the relations between NSO, STA, and NpO, but given RandomInterrupt's blatant expression of glee over his predicted failure of baseballer, more context for the "friendship" between NSO and tLC needed to be provided.

3. I have never said anything about the people voting, etc. I just support the people being informed about major decisions.

4. This thread doesn't exist so NSO and myself can fight and argue in perpetuity, just so those with something to say can say it, then it's been said. Don't expect me to drag this out beyond this thread and go into NSO or Frostbite threads to say things. All this mess ends in this thread.

5. Thank you o/ Za Sibir!

[HeinousOne]

Since Tyga has accepted your apology then that is over with. It's done, but please do not try to use STA again as an example against another alliance, especially one of it's allies. That is just a personal request.

As far as the issue with Random, not having ever been in NSO I am not in a great place to make a statement but is not NSO a bit of a dog eat dog world type of place? If Random was in NSO he probably would have said the same things about baseballer right? When I saw the initial announcemtn for the creation of NSO I realized it was not an alliance that could be held up to the conventional rules of behavior within an alliance. I would assume that a previous member just a couple days removed is going to respond as he would if he was still in NSO.

Then again I could be completely wrong about all of that.

Edited May 28, 2009 by HeinousOne

[Asdrubael Vect]

You're a good guy, Sileath. Good luck out there.

[D34th]

There appears to be some unresolved issues between myself and New Sith Order. This thread exists so myself and NSO can each express their sides and after the airing of grievances is complete, we can all move on.

In this thread I am not representing Athens in the slightest, just as myself as a former member of NSO.

NpO, this doesn't concern you.

STA, I apologize for this post being in your State of the Alliance thread, that wasn't the place for it. I have nothing but o/ for you. Assuming you accept my apology for that post, this also doesn't concern you.

Here are some of the issues I have with NSO. If you're going to reply and address these issues specifically, please use numbers so everything looks and stays all organized.

1. Lack of communication from the government. This has been by far my #1 issue since I was head of Internal Affairs, and I had worked hard to make sure that government operations were being divulged to the citizenry in a timely matter. Following my departure from that role, communication from the government to the people was drastically reduced.

2. Ivan Moldavi said several times that NSO would not be signing treaty blocs. Terra-Cotta Pact was a treaty bloc, though it was a color sphere thing and the citizenry could see the negotiations taking place in the Brown alliance embassies.

3. Frostbite - a treaty bloc. This bloc was not at all talked about to the general NSO public. Having a treaty with STA and NpO are completely understandable and justified - no person in NSO would oppose them due to the history of those alliances and the NSO. Still, due to how many times that Ivan said that NSO would not be signing into treaty blocs its curious that such a dramatic change in paradigm of a leader would occur without the knowledge of the citizenry.

3a. This does not mean I oppose treaty blocs, just that if a leader says something over and over and it's a big issue with them, and then they completely reverse themselves, the people should know about it at least a few minutes before it hits the OWF.

4. Holy good gravy, people brought all their biases with them in NSO. The GGA-Athens-NPO thread was a mess. (I'm not including TPF because noone doubted mhawk's account of the events). We're talking about people screaming and swearing at me in the NSO channel because I'm refusing to automatically take an anti-GGA stance. In the history of NSO, GGA has never done anything against NSO. In fact, GGA assisted NSO by taking LadyDakota off of their ZI list so they could join. And I'm getting flamed to hell because of the position I'm taking in this thread searching for the truth (posting screenshots, putting together the evidence, instead of saying "OMG GGA FAILS CAUSE THEY'RE GGA") and it's like the biggest betrayal to them.

5. What's with the treaty with The Liquor Cabinet? You know their Theodore Roosevelt (what's the equivalent of that rank?) RandomInterrupt, like two days after he leaves NSO, publicly insults NSO for accepting baseballer as a member and says he'll laugh when baseballer fails.

6. The whole concept of government making decisions without telling the citizenry - I'm not even saying the people should have a choice, just for them to know - and then distracting them with shiny objects (the Frostbite sig) so they can go on a mass hail fest seems a little... yeah, a little NPO.

7. My Sileathonomics thread on these forums did not concern NSO to the degree to which I was insulted within it. That is the biggest motivation for this thread.

I suck, etc - let's hear it NSO, get it all out in the open because you know I like to keep things public.

Once it's all been said and gotten out in the open, we can move on, you guys as a great alliance, and me in Athens keeping it real with the convenienct free speech clause in the constitution.

In case it's not very clear - this is not the place for statements about Athens. Air your grievances about me all you want, but Athens has done nothing to deserve your disrespect.

2- So Ivan can't change his mind? For me is a difference between "would not be signing into treaty blocs" and "never would not be signing into treaty blocs" maybe just my english fails.

5- If you knew Baseballer's history you would agree with RandomInterrupt.

6- The shiny objects(the Frostbite sig) weren't asked for Frostbite leadership neither for NSO leadership, it was my idea do it to create a better unity sensation among Frostbite members, so I miss your point here.

[Sileath]

Since Tyga has accepted your apology then that is over with. It's done, but please do not try and use STA again as an example. That is just a personal request.

As far as the issue with Random, not having ever been in NSO I am not in a great place to make a statement but is not NSO a bit of a dog eat dog world type of place? If Random was in NSO he probably would have said the same things about baseballer right? When I saw the initial announcemtn for the creation of NSO I realized it was not an alliance that could be held up to the conventional rules of behavior within an alliance. I would assume that a previous member just a couple days removed is going to respond as he would if he was still in NSO.

Then again I could be completely wrong about all of that.

Yes, bringing this into one of STA's thread was a one-time error.

The problem is that if RandomInterrupt had a problem with NSO's admission policy he should have said something while he was a Sith Lord. When I was head of IA, I personally attempted to make some changes to the admission policy, and it brought a lot of debate - none from RandomInterrupt. I felt it was not his place as someone outside of the alliance to so blatantly criticize our admission policy and our membership.

[Tygaland]

1. I appreciate that. o/

You're welcome.

2. I did not personally perceive a friendship existing between NSO and tLC. I completely understand the relations between NSO, STA, and NpO, but given RandomInterrupt's blatant expression of glee over his predicted failure of baseballer, more context for the "friendship" between NSO and tLC needed to be provided.

I think you'll find baseballer has quite a colourful history with the NpO and to a lesser extent the STA which would explain Random's comments. I don't see why Random's dislike for baseballer should preclude good relations between the NSO and tLC.

3. I have never said anything about the people voting, etc. I just support the people being informed about major decisions.

As I said, the bloc came together quite quickly. In a matter of a few days, in fact. It wasn't possible to forewarn members of it coming into being because of this.

4. This thread doesn't exist so NSO and myself can fight and argue in perpetuity, just so those with something to say can say it, then it's been said. Don't expect me to drag this out beyond this thread and go into NSO or Frostbite threads to say things. All this mess ends in this thread.

That may be so but your "I suck" line followed by a call for NSO to come and attack you here doesn't seem conducive to reparing relations or clearing the air. But, as I said, you are fre to do as you please.

It is not really my problem, I just wanted to clarify a few things about how the Frostbite pact came together that may explain the short notice given to members of signatory alliances.

[Sileath]

2- So Ivan can't change his mind? For me is a difference between "would not be signing into treaty blocs" and "never would not be signing into treaty blocs" maybe just my english fails.

5- If you knew Baseballer's history you would agree with RandomInterrupt.

6- The shiny objects(the Frostbite sig) weren't asked for Frostbite leadership neither for NSO leadership, it was my idea do it to create a better unity sensation among Frostbite members, so I miss your point here.

2. For him to change his mind so drastically in my opinion should have been preceded by an explanation on the NSO forums, talking about why his mind had been changed.

5. You know what, there are a lot of NSO members with shady pasts, does that mean anyone from any alliance should be allowed to insult them and NSO for accepting them, then later that day become a NSO treaty partner?

6. You did a very nice job on the signatures. I'm just saying that the priorities of the citizenry are askew - instead of caring about communication from their government, they care more that their government's actions are accompanied by nice graphics.

[Sileath]

You're welcome.

1. I think you'll find baseballer has quite a colourful history with the NpO and to a lesser extent the STA which would explain Random's comments. I don't see why Random's dislike for baseballer should preclude good relations between the NSO and tLC.

2. As I said, the bloc came together quite quickly. In a matter of a few days, in fact. It wasn't possible to forewarn members of it coming into being because of this.

3. That may be so but your "I suck" line followed by a call for NSO to come and attack you here doesn't seem conducive to reparing relations or clearing the air. But, as I said, you are fre to do as you please.

4. It is not really my problem, I just wanted to clarify a few things about how the Frostbite pact came together that may explain the short notice given to members of signatory alliances.

I edited your post to include numbers so I could respond to the numbers - a statement without a number means it's resolved

1. It was largely the tone.. it wasn't in good faith, because RandomInterrupt seemed to take great delight in his prediction that baseballer would fail. If he said something like "You've messed up in other alliances so I hope you do well in NSO," something that a friend would say, then it wouldn't be an issue.

2. A single thread on the NSO forums would have sufficed - something saying that a treaty bloc was coming, and/or that NSO was going to get closer with NpO, STA, and tLC, especially something saying that Ivan was reversing his position on treaty blocs.

3. Bring it on, I can take it. It's not as much about repairing relations as about at the end coming to an armistice - and we not coming into each other's/our allies' threads needlessly like with the SoA and Sileathonomics threads.

4. You're a good man, Tygaland o/

[D34th]

2. For him to change his mind so drastically in my opinion should have been preceded by an explanation on the NSO forums, talking about why his mind had been changed.

5. You know what, there are a lot of NSO members with shady pasts, does that mean anyone from any alliance should be allowed to insult them and NSO for accepting them, then later that day become a NSO treaty partner?

6. You did a very nice job on the signatures. I'm just saying that the priorities of the citizenry are askew - instead of caring about communication from their government, they care more that their government's actions are accompanied by nice graphics.

2- I think you were one the first to join NSO when it was created and I thought you knew Ivan to do not delude yourself about he giving explanations to satisfy membership. If you want that better for you seek for an alliance who works under a democracy gov.

5- I don't think that there are so many members who act like a 8 years old guy insulting people and calling bad names like Baseballer. You don't know his behavior in NpO so better not try to defend him.

[Sileath]

2- I think you were one the first to join NSO when it was created and I thought you knew Ivan to do not delude yourself about he giving explanations to satisfy membership. If you want that better for you seek for an alliance who works under a democracy gov.

5- I don't think that there are so many members who act like a 8 years old guy insulting people and calling bad names like Baseballer. You don't know his behavior in NpO so better not try to defend him.

2. Plenty of people in government must have known about the upcoming bloc. Any of them could have talked about it, but did not.

5. I'm going to drop the Baseballer issue as he is still a member of NSO and I don't want you guys insulting your comrade in this thread.

[Fallen Fool]

1. Lack of communication from the government. This has been by far my #1 issue since I was head of Internal Affairs, and I had worked hard to make sure that government operations were being divulged to the citizenry in a timely matter. Following my departure from that role, communication from the government to the people was drastically reduced.

As someone who was a member during the time when you were head of Internal Affairs, and who was a member when you weren't Internal Affairs, I'm just going to go ahead and say your perception is skewed to the point of being plain out wrong.

2. Ivan Moldavi said several times that NSO would not be signing treaty blocs. Terra-Cotta Pact was a treaty bloc, though it was a color sphere thing and the citizenry could see the negotiations taking place in the Brown alliance embassies.

3. Frostbite - a treaty bloc. This bloc was not at all talked about to the general NSO public. Having a treaty with STA and NpO are completely understandable and justified - no person in NSO would oppose them due to the history of those alliances and the NSO. Still, due to how many times that Ivan said that NSO would not be signing into treaty blocs its curious that such a dramatic change in paradigm of a leader would occur without the knowledge of the citizenry.

3a. This does not mean I oppose treaty blocs, just that if a leader says something over and over and it's a big issue with them, and then they completely reverse themselves, the people should know about it at least a few minutes before it hits the OWF.

Circumstances change. Ivan would be a bad leader if he chose to remain devoted to a static policy formulated in an entirely different situation.

4. Holy good gravy, people brought all their biases with them in NSO. The GGA-Athens-NPO thread was a mess. (I'm not including TPF because noone doubted mhawk's account of the events). We're talking about people screaming and swearing at me in the NSO channel because I'm refusing to automatically take an anti-GGA stance. In the history of NSO, GGA has never done anything against NSO. In fact, GGA assisted NSO by taking LadyDakota off of their ZI list so they could join. And I'm getting flamed to hell because of the position I'm taking in this thread searching for the truth (posting screenshots, putting together the evidence, instead of saying "OMG GGA FAILS CAUSE THEY'RE GGA") and it's like the biggest betrayal to them.

NSO doesn't require individuals to go through a memory wipe upon entering the alliance, nor does it require it's members to maintain some crazed party line. Personal opinions are precisely that. Personal.

Just because you disagree with them doesn't mean that the government of the NSO needs to crackdown on them and throttle free thought.

5. What's with the treaty with The Liquor Cabinet? You know their Theodore Roosevelt (what's the equivalent of that rank?) RandomInterrupt, like two days after he leaves NSO, publicly insults NSO for accepting baseballer as a member and says he'll laugh when baseballer fails.

Random is an !@#$%^&. He's always been an !@#$%^&, and he'll always be an !@#$%^&.

Fact of the matter is, however, he has always owned up to it, and if he views you as his friend then he'll be at your side come what may.

6. The whole concept of government making decisions without telling the citizenry - I'm not even saying the people should have a choice, just for them to know - and then distracting them with shiny objects (the Frostbite sig) so they can go on a mass hail fest seems a little... yeah, a little NPO.

What?

You want the government of the NSO to keep the general membership in the loop about every potential treaty all the time? Even those that don't pan out?

7. My Sileathonomics thread on these forums did not concern NSO to the degree to which I was insulted within it. That is the biggest motivation for this thread.

Read my reply to #4.

I suck, etc - let's hear it NSO, get it all out in the open because you know I like to keep things public.

Right.

Because we're the jerks in this situation

Once it's all been said and gotten out in the open, we can move on, you guys as a great alliance, and me in Athens keeping it real with the convenienct free speech clause in the constitution.

Yep.

We hate free speech. That's clearly written all over my reply.

In case it's not very clear - this is not the place for statements about Athens. Air your grievances about me all you want, but Athens has done nothing to deserve your disrespect.

Fine be me since I don't have a problem with Athens (well aside from that Londo character; he's a bit of an idealist ). Edited May 28, 2009 by Fallen_Fool

[bbrownso]

1. I appreciate that. o/

2. I did not personally perceive a friendship existing between NSO and tLC. I completely understand the relations between NSO, STA, and NpO, but given RandomInterrupt's blatant expression of glee over his predicted failure of baseballer, more context for the "friendship" between NSO and tLC needed to be provided.

3. I have never said anything about the people voting, etc. I just support the people being informed about major decisions.

4. This thread doesn't exist so NSO and myself can fight and argue in perpetuity, just so those with something to say can say it, then it's been said. Don't expect me to drag this out beyond this thread and go into NSO or Frostbite threads to say things. All this mess ends in this thread.

5. Thank you o/ Za Sibir!

Look into the past. Look at the leaders of the two alliances. They've supported each other in a variety of ways.

Of course it happened fast, not many expected Vox to disband so quickly and a new alliance headed by Sponge to become a viable bloc member so quickly.

[Tygaland]

1. It was largely the tone.. it wasn't in good faith, because RandomInterrupt seemed to take great delight in his prediction that baseballer would fail. If he said something like "You've messed up in other alliances so I hope you do well in NSO," something that a friend would say, then it wouldn't be an issue.

Friends with whom? Baseballer or the NSO? I don't think Random has any friendship with baseballer nor any dislike of the NSO. Random has always been honest and blunt in his assessments and I'd say this falls into that category. I think you may be reading too much into it. NSO is a culture of challenging those who are deemed to be ineffective in their job so perhaps Random was hoping baseballer would fail to go anywhere in the NSO by virtue of the system he is well aware of.

2. A single thread on the NSO forums would have sufficed - something saying that a treaty bloc was coming, and/or that NSO was going to get closer with NpO, STA, and tLC, especially something saying that Ivan was reversing his position on treaty blocs.

As I said, nothing was finalised until a day ago, it happened that quickly. Informing the membership of "maybe's" only leads to rumours and innuendo. As long as the membership are informed once soemthing has been agreed and the reasoning behind the decision then I think that is all that can be asked of the leadership of a non-democratic alliance.

3. Bring it on, I can take it. It's not as much about repairing relations as about at the end coming to an armistice - and we not coming into each other's/our allies' threads needlessly like with the SoA and Sileathonomics threads.

As I said, a rather pointless exercise.

[Sileath]

1. As someone who was a member during the time when you were head of Internal Affairs, and who was a member when you weren't Internal Affairs, I'm just going to go ahead and say your perception is skewed to the point of being plain out wrong.

2. Circumstances change. Ivan would be a bad leader if he chose to remain devoted to a static policy formulated in an entirely different situation.

3. NSO doesn't require individuals to go through a memory wipe upon entering the alliance, nor does it require it's members to maintain some crazed party line. Personal opinions are precisely that. Personal.

Just because you disagree with them doesn't mean that the government of the NSO needs to crackdown on them and throttle free thought.

4. Random is an !@#$%^&. He's always been an !@#$%^&, and he'll always be an !@#$%^&.

Fact of the matter is, however, he has always owned up to it, and if he views you as his friend then he'll be at your side come what may.

What?

2. You want the government of the NSO to keep the general membership in the loop about every potential treaty all the time? Even those that don't pan out?

Read my reply to #4.

Right.

Because we're the my idols in this situation

Yep.

We hate free speech. That's clearly written all over my reply.

Fine be me since I don't have a problem with Athens (well aside from that Londo character; he's a bit of an idealist ).

Same with Tyga, I've edited your post to add numbers.

1. The weekly IA reports revealed in excruciating detail what IA was doing. Since then, I've had no idea what IA had been doing, and I've never known what Peace/Trade has done, even when I was government.

2. For Ivan to say over and over that NSO was about a certain thing (no treaty blocs) then to spring a treaty bloc on us on the OWF was puzzling. He could have make any single post or thread on the NSO forums saying that due to changing circumstances, NSO would be open to treaty blocs. As soon as Frostbite was confirmed, it would have been nice if the people would have been informed.. I mean is it that opsec that you can't give the people the courtesy of letting them know who their new sworn allies are?

3. As my superior in WarCon was youwish959, he would be considered government, and he's one of the ones who had the biggest problem with my actions in the GGA thread.

I have the log available for those who already have access to the private NSO channel - government spams in the channel that another alliance leader should be insulted, I kick them for spamming, and then get banned. Who's silencing whom here?

4. I've already dropped the Random issue.

Edited May 28, 2009 by Sileath

[Starbuck]

Good luck in resolving this Sileath, I wish you the best my friend.

[Fallen Fool]

1. The weekly IA reports revealed in excruciating detail what IA was doing. Since then, I've had no idea what IA had been doing, and I've never known what Peace/Trade has done, even when I was government.

You say that as if there were some topic secret government manipulation going on behind the scenes

Trust me when I say that, after reviewing the forums, it's not nearly that interesting. IA's working on recruiting, and revamping the media department. Peace/Trade is setting up trade circles, and keeping in contact with our friends and allies through discussions on mainly mundane issues, such as Pyroman from CD's distinctive smell or Penguin from Polaris obsession with "finding the perfect herring."

2. For Ivan to say over and over that NSO was about a certain thing (no treaty blocs) then to spring a treaty bloc on us on the OWF was puzzling. He could have make any single post or thread on the NSO forums saying that due to changing circumstances, NSO would be open to treaty blocs. As soon as Frostbite was confirmed, it would have been nice if the people would have been informed.. I mean is it that opsec that you can't give the people the courtesy of letting them know who their new sworn allies are?

Saying "we're open to treaty blocs" without first having a treaty bloc set up would lead to rampant speculation concerning who we would be treating, and would build up excitement for something that might very well never have occurred.

Also, as Tyga has mentioned, the pacing of the formation discussions was such that, by the time Frostbite was finally confirmed by all parties, there was no point in making an announcement internally since it was largely redundant given the OWF topic

3. As my superior in WarCon was youwish959, he would be considered government, and he's one of the ones who had the biggest problem with my actions in the GGA thread.

Did you report your disagreement with Youwish to the Dark Council? Did you consider making use of our nifty challenge system to unseat him?

If no to both, then how can you complain about something you took no measure to correct internally, instead choosing to favor an OWF topic?

So, government spams in the channel that another alliance leader should be insulted, I kick them for spamming, and then get banned. Who's silencing whom here?

Are you referring to the time when Random kicked you from #nso after you repeatedly kick/banned Doitzel for saying something "insulting" to you on the forums?

[Sileath]

1. You say that as if there were some topic secret government manipulation going on behind the scenes

1. Trust me when I say that, after reviewing the forums, it's not nearly that interesting. IA's working on recruiting, and revamping the media department. Peace/Trade is setting up trade circles, and keeping in contact with our friends and allies through discussions on mainly mundane issues, such as Pyroman from CD's distinctive smell or Penguin from Polaris obsession with "finding the perfect herring."

2. Saying "we're open to treaty blocs" without first having a treaty bloc set up would lead to rampant speculation concerning who we would be treating, and would build up excitement for something that might very well never have occurred.

2. Also, as Tyga has mentioned, the pacing of the formation discussions was such that, by the time Frostbite was finally confirmed by all parties, there was no point in making an announcement internally since it was largely redundant given the OWF topic

3. Did you report your disagreement with Youwish to the Dark Council? Did you consider making use of our nifty challenge system to unseat him?

If no to both, then how can you complain about something you took no measure to correct internally, instead choosing to favor an OWF topic?

3. Are you referring to the time when Random kicked you from #nso after you repeatedly kick/banned Doitzel for saying something "insulting" to you on the forums?

1. The challenge system (which is one of the best features of NSO) is hindered if the people don't know what policies and actions are taking place to be challenged. IA always recruits, because IA has a great leader of recruitment. What about the progress of the Academy? I had to specifically call out IA in a Debate Forum thread just to get them to condescend to explain what they've been doing with their time.

2. What's wrong with the citizenry speculating? Sounds like you're talking down to people, like they can't "handle" the information that something might be happening to which they will be honor bound. It could have been posted prior to it becoming official, with a statement saying not to talk about it with people outside of the alliance. Treat people like adults, and they act like adults.

3. Yes, for that incident I was elevated to & in the private NSO channel. The incident with Random a month ago had nothing to do with this. I will PM you the relevant log concerning youwish.

[Mozaffar]

There appears to be some unresolved issues between myself and New Sith Order. This thread exists so myself and NSO can each express their sides and after the airing of grievances is complete, we can all move on.

In this thread I am not representing Athens in the slightest, just as myself as a former member of NSO.

NpO, this doesn't concern you.

STA, I apologize for this post being in your State of the Alliance thread, that wasn't the place for it. I have nothing but o/ for you. Assuming you accept my apology for that post, this also doesn't concern you.

Here are some of the issues I have with NSO. If you're going to reply and address these issues specifically, please use numbers so everything looks and stays all organized.

1. Lack of communication from the government. This has been by far my #1 issue since I was head of Internal Affairs, and I had worked hard to make sure that government operations were being divulged to the citizenry in a timely matter. Following my departure from that role, communication from the government to the people was drastically reduced.

2. Ivan Moldavi said several times that NSO would not be signing treaty blocs. Terra-Cotta Pact was a treaty bloc, though it was a color sphere thing and the citizenry could see the negotiations taking place in the Brown alliance embassies.

3. Frostbite - a treaty bloc. This bloc was not at all talked about to the general NSO public. Having a treaty with STA and NpO are completely understandable and justified - no person in NSO would oppose them due to the history of those alliances and the NSO. Still, due to how many times that Ivan said that NSO would not be signing into treaty blocs its curious that such a dramatic change in paradigm of a leader would occur without the knowledge of the citizenry.

3a. This does not mean I oppose treaty blocs, just that if a leader says something over and over and it's a big issue with them, and then they completely reverse themselves, the people should know about it at least a few minutes before it hits the OWF.

4. Holy good gravy, people brought all their biases with them in NSO. The GGA-Athens-NPO thread was a mess. (I'm not including TPF because noone doubted mhawk's account of the events). We're talking about people screaming and swearing at me in the NSO channel because I'm refusing to automatically take an anti-GGA stance. In the history of NSO, GGA has never done anything against NSO. In fact, GGA assisted NSO by taking LadyDakota off of their ZI list so they could join. And I'm getting flamed to hell because of the position I'm taking in this thread searching for the truth (posting screenshots, putting together the evidence, instead of saying "OMG GGA FAILS CAUSE THEY'RE GGA") and it's like the biggest betrayal to them.

5. What's with the treaty with The Liquor Cabinet? You know their Theodore Roosevelt (what's the equivalent of that rank?) RandomInterrupt, like two days after he leaves NSO, publicly insults NSO for accepting baseballer as a member and says he'll laugh when baseballer fails.

6. The whole concept of government making decisions without telling the citizenry - I'm not even saying the people should have a choice, just for them to know - and then distracting them with shiny objects (the Frostbite sig) so they can go on a mass hail fest seems a little... yeah, a little NPO.

7. My Sileathonomics thread on these forums did not concern NSO to the degree to which I was insulted within it. That is the biggest motivation for this thread.

I suck, etc - let's hear it NSO, get it all out in the open because you know I like to keep things public.

Once it's all been said and gotten out in the open, we can move on, you guys as a great alliance, and me in Athens keeping it real with the convenienct free speech clause in the constitution.

In case it's not very clear - this is not the place for statements about Athens. Air your grievances about me all you want, but Athens has done nothing to deserve your disrespect.

First of all, I would like to emphasize that I think you were a good NSO member, intelligent and ambitious, much more then I have ever been, though I'd suggest, no offense intended, to keep a check on your attitude. I think had you approached the public about your plans in a different way you would have been more successful, the most dramatic example being the 3 million - 50 tech plan which you could have first shown to the public as a proposal rather as an order. I hope you'll take these things into account in your future alliance.

I'll be replying to those points I've got anything to say on, for example in the case of point 4 I wasn't there so who am I to judge.

2. It's a fact that these things happen backdoor. We don't need to get our hopes up for nothing. Regardless opinions can change, I didn't expect to happen this fast but relations between NpO, STA and the NSO were already reaching towards that of a de facto bloc. Operating together as a official bloc just makes us work together more efficiently. What I would hope, and fully expect, is that Frostbite holds a high standard when it comes to admitting new alliances.

5. Look at it's membership and it's past affiliations. Look at our membership. Relations between NSO and tLC prospering can't really come as a surprise.

6. If I remember correctly, though I could be mistaking, that with a lot of your economic plans you did the same. First starting them up and only then debating about it.

[Firestorm]

I was a member of the NSO for awhile. I'll certainly vouch that there is an aggressive atmosphere in the alliance between fellow members. The atmosphere of, 'Only the Strong Survives' tends to foster a bit of aggression. I don't think it is a bad thing if you are aware of it in advance and can handle it.

My own situation I didn't so much leave the NSO as I returned to my true home the CSN. We all change and so do the alliances we belong to.

Edited May 28, 2009 by Firestorm

[Baden-Württemberg]

Well, good luck to you Sileath. You seem to be a decent guy. And I agree with Fran