IRON Surrenders

[MCRABT]

Post war ego? lmfao. That's just Lee, dude. Take it from someone who has known him a long time. That's just Lee.

As for Rok deserving reps... they won. Isn't that how the game is played, or has been for the last 3+ years? You win, you get reps. Not everyone may play by these rules, but remember that Rok was founded by a lot of ex-\m/embers... they were subject to the worst reps of all time.

Fair enough but any alliance who wants to offer terms reflective of NPO and the harshest hegemonic policy has no right to pretend like they are interested in changing the mechanics of the game. It is clear that they are only interested in changing who runs the mechanics of the game. If one thing has become apparent to me in this war (not that i thought it would be any different pre-war) is that the change many karma alliances really desired was more political influence not to level the playing field. Is that wrong? No it's not it just means that this is a war the same as any the hegemony ever launched and to label yourself the forces of justice and honor is laughable. Don't get me wrong I think there are Karma alliances who certainly do desire real change but there a certainly plenty of opportunistic alliances tagging on and using the ideals preached by the genuine to cover up their own greed and desire for power.

This whole argument is pretty sad when you think about it. "RoK's original request was too high". So what? You always make your first offer too high it is negotiation 101. You need a bargaining point, if you start with what you really think you should get you will always end up with less than you think you should get.

True although normally your bargaining point goes down not up. This happened on multiple occasions until other alliances involved in the conflict intervened.

[shilo]

Okay, but my main point in all of this is not that IRON wasnt a part of the Hegemony. My main point is there was a very big Hegemony....and plenty of alliances a part of it at one point or another. Even while all of the problems that everyone is angry about were going on. Nearly every alliance on Bob was a facilitator to what went on. A lot of alliances were a part of the Hegemony and a lot were tied to it. Like I said, I along with everyone else should look in the mirror before accusing others. I don't see many differences in the path IRON took in comparison to a lot of other alliances out there with regards to the Hegemony and length of time in the Hegemony and "allowing things to happen" while being a part of the Hegemony.

Thats my last point. Theres better places for this debate now that the wars over. Dont get me wrong, Im not mad or upset by any length at any alliance or anyone. I love war in CN. Its makes it worth playing. I just don't like to see spin. And now, I bow out.

That is true as well, my former alliance could have fallen in your camp as well, and tried to get in numerous times before, when I was in government there I persued that course of action.

With the way the MDP web look(s)(ed), only a few alliances can say that they were not at least indirectly involved in what went on.

@mcrabt

Karma is not an alliance bloc, but a temporary coalition formed together by so many different alliances.

Like always in life, there are good guys and bad guys, Karma is not a coalition of saints, and Hegemony has quite a few nice alliances in it as well.

Edited May 27, 2009 by shilo

[enderland]

Okay, but my main point in all of this is not that IRON wasnt a part of the Hegemony.

Yeah, I agree! This is so true!

He-llo. You really don't think IRON was part of the hegemony? Seriously? IRON has been a member of major power blocks since UJP. One Vision, Continuum... those were more than year long mistakes that IRON never noticed or condoned?

edit: He-llo reading comprehension XD too many negatives for me to keep track of, or something

Edited May 27, 2009 by alden peterson

[Finster Baby]

Yeah, I agree! This is so true!

He-llo. You really don't think IRON was part of the hegemony? Seriously? IRON has been a member of major power blocks since UJP. One Vision, Continuum... those were more than year long mistakes that IRON never noticed or condoned?

Read it again alden.

He said that was exactly what he WASN'T trying to say. He was trying to say that several of the Karma alliances are tied, either directly or indirectly, to the same things IRON was.

[delgursh]

That is true as well, my former alliance could have fallen in your camp as well, and tried to get in numerous times before, when I was in government there I persued that course of action.

With the way the MDP web look(s)(ed), only a few alliances can say that they were not at least indirectly involved in what went on.

Had to jump back for that....thats my point. All I was trying to get across in this thread. There may be layers of guilt, but everyone's guilty.

And edit: yes alden...Im not saying that IRON was free of the Hegemony...we were a big part of it. But almost everyone on Bob was at least a tiny part of the Hegemony.

Edited May 27, 2009 by delgursh

[enderland]

Don't get me wrong I think there are Karma alliances who certainly do desire real change but there a certainly plenty of opportunistic alliances tagging on and using the ideals preached by the genuine to cover up their own greed and desire for power.

Guess you picked a "bad" alliance to attack then or something.

And realistically, these terms are nothing. Less than 2,000,000 per member? That is peanuts in terms of actual reps.

[enderland]

Read it again alden.

He said that was exactly what he WASN'T trying to say. He was trying to say that several of the Karma alliances are tied, either directly or indirectly, to the same things IRON was.

err, missed that "not"

[SoxNation]

Yeah, I agree! This is so true!

He-llo. You really don't think IRON was part of the hegemony? Seriously? IRON has been a member of major power blocks since UJP. One Vision, Continuum... those were more than year long mistakes that IRON never noticed or condoned?

Alden re-read what he said there, he's not saying they weren't, he's saying others were and now are saying IRON has to pay.

Which is something I pointed out as well.

Regardless, haters on both sides noone cares. IRON was a great opponent for the FCC's first war and we look forward to getting to know them better.

[Kindom of Goon]

Okay, but my main point in all of this is not that IRON wasnt a part of the Hegemony. My main point is there was a very big Hegemony....and plenty of alliances a part of it at one point or another. Even while all of the problems that everyone is angry about were going on. Nearly every alliance on Bob was a facilitator to what went on. A lot of alliances were a part of the Hegemony and a lot were tied to it. Like I said, I along with everyone else should look in the mirror before accusing others. I don't see many differences in the path IRON took in comparison to a lot of other alliances out there with regards to the Hegemony and length of time in the Hegemony and "allowing things to happen" while being a part of the Hegemony. What crimes did IRON specifically sit around for and do nothing about that everyone else did do something about? Everyone sat around for a loooong time before anyone cared. I know...I was in the Legion in GW3. I took the brunt of it.

Thats my last point. Theres better places for this debate now that the wars over. Dont get me wrong, Im not mad or upset by any length at any alliance or anyone. I love war in CN. Its makes it worth playing. I just don't like to see spin. And besides, our surrender thread isnt a place for all of this anyway And now, I bow out.

You held multiple treaties with them including via two major blocs, an MADP meaning you're commited to all their aggressive actions, and if I remember correctly, you claimed to hold someone on your EZI list because they were on NPO's EZI list. That's not just being part of the Hegemony, its being right in the thick of it.

Edited May 27, 2009 by Kindom of Goon

[enderland]

You held multiple treaties with them including via two major blocs, an MADP meaning you're commited to all their aggressive actions, and if I remember correctly, you claimed to hold someone on your EZI list because they were on NPO's EZI list. That's not just being part of the Hegemony its being right in the thick of it.

While it might be all everyone's dream to imitate me, imitate things other than my reading mistakes please

[Finster Baby]

You held multiple treaties with them including via two major blocs, an MADP meaning you're commited to all their aggressive actions, and if I remember correctly, you claimed to hold someone on your EZI list because they were on NPO's EZI list. That's not just being part of the Hegemony, its being right in the thick of it.

I'll be consistent here.

Please re-read what Delgursh said - it wasn't "IRON isn't part of the hedgemony" it was "Not only was IRON, but several Karma alliances, either directly or indirectly."

Thanks!

[Kindom of Goon]

While it might be all everyone's dream to imitate me, imitate things other than my reading mistakes please

heh, I know what he said, unlike some I can read

I was just pointing out why IRON is a little different to the rest of the Hegemony.

[delgursh]

You held multiple treaties with them including via two major blocs, an MADP meaning you're commited to all their aggressive actions, and if I remember correctly, you claimed to hold someone on your EZI list because they were on NPO's EZI list. That's not just being part of the Hegemony, its being right in the thick of it.

Again, I'm not denying that IRON was a part of the Hegemony. Its quite obvious IRON was a part of the Hegemony. I'm just saying everyone needs to step back and think about things. The Hegemony include(s)(ed) more alliances then we credit. Most of Bob was a part of it for a year following the UJP War.

Also, IRON never held anyone to EZI. If you re-rolled your nation, IRON wouldn't care.

P.S. I guess Im back for a little more. I want to re-establish...Im not IRON gov. I dont speak for IRON. And I dont hate Karma or any of you. Im just trying to push through the weeds to allow us all time to sit back and think about the last few years in CN. Everyone, lets get introspective! Also, Im going to fix my post so no one else misreads it

Edited May 27, 2009 by delgursh

[Valtamdraugr]

Thank god for my SDI!

^^this.

I was 3 days away from purchasing my SDI when this war broke out and have paid for the lapse 5 times.

(foolish or brave, I probably shouldn't attack nukers, having naught but foul language to send in retaliation)

The night sky over Mjordrika now maintains an unhealthy green glow one could read by.

The extra appendages that many of my warriors now sport shall come in handy for the next war.

That said, I would be proud and quite secure with IRON at my back in any conflict.

Some of my closest allies were once my fiercest opponents, I would have it no other way.

Appertaining to reparations, I would normally scoff at the prospect but for this single reason...

IRON's attack on us depleted resources that would have been better utilized in defense of our allies.

edit: removed ambiguity.

Edited May 27, 2009 by Valtamdraugr

[Ejayrazz]

When Gremlins enter an aggression clause, rough ideas are to be discussed, nothing can be completely dictated as it is the start, but we have a generally well rough draft. The first demands wasn't acceptable in my opinion, as others may disagree you have that right but I also have the right to my opinion, it goes both ways here.

[Mozaffar]

Again, I'm not denying that IRON was a part of the Hegemony. Its quite obvious IRON was a part of the Hegemony. I'm just saying everyone needs to step back and think about things. The Hegemony include(s)(ed) more alliances then we credit. Most of Bob was a part of it for a year following the UJP War.

Yes and a number of alliances took steps to sever ties when IRON sticked with it and only began to voice criticism against the way the Hegemony has acted when the Hegemony was in the process of being destroyed. Where a number of former-Hegemony alliances have taken steps to destroy it (through this war) IRON has continued to protect the Hegemony hoping to maintain the status quo ante bellum.

I want to re-establish...Im not IRON gov. I dont speak for IRON. And I dont hate Karma or any of you.

I hope you do understand that one of the reasons that people post these disclaimers is because of the Hegemony you have fought to protect.

Edited May 27, 2009 by Mozaffar

[delgursh]

heh, I know what he said, unlike some I can read

I was just pointing out why IRON is a little different to the rest of the Hegemony.

Not to beat a dead horse...but the argument was made that by us standing by and letting the Hegemony run its course, we are responsible. But everyone let the Hegemony run its course, so we are all responsible. IRON paid and is paying for its share, but we cant allow everyone to push blame around. Almost all of Bob is responsible in some way or another for the Hegemony and it staying in power. There are plenty of alliances that were a part of it...even ones we (and I) all love today.

[delgursh]

Yes and they took steps to sever ties when IRON sticked with it and only began to voice criticism against the way the Hegemony has acted when the Hegemony was in the process of being destroyed. Where a number of former-Hegemony alliances have taken steps to destroy it (through this war) IRON has continued to protect the Hegemony hoping to maintain the status quo ante bellum.

And what if we hadn't? What if we sat out the war? What would have happened then? I do remember seeing Infra>Friends flying around here somewhere. Coalition of Cowards anyone?

Also, sorry for the double post.

Edited May 27, 2009 by delgursh

[Ejayrazz]

Dude. Being friends with IRON means you get free hookers. $%&@ the haters.

IRON supported their allies, the NPO. They aren't bad people because of it, but they aren't entirely innocent. However, I do know they never were truly happy. This will be interesting where they go.

Edited May 27, 2009 by Ejayrazz

[Mozaffar]

And what if we hadn't? What if we sat out the war? What would have happened then? I do remember seeing Infra>Friends flying around here somewhere. Coalition of Cowards anyone?

Also, sorry for the double post.

IRON could have always severed ties in time for this conflict. If IRON had a shred of decency it could have severed ties when it could no longer agree with the means of the Hegemony. IRON was hardly a small partner that could be intimidated into staying either.

Remember that IRON had these treaties and could have always cancelled them in the run-up to this conflict. IRON had a very long time to sever ties with the NPO and other Hegemony alliances, where other alliances did just that your alliance chose to stick with them.

Edited May 27, 2009 by Mozaffar

[Gen Lee]

Fair enough but any alliance who wants to offer terms reflective of NPO and the harshest hegemonic policy has no right to pretend like they are interested in changing the mechanics of the game. It is clear that they are only interested in changing who runs the mechanics of the game. If one thing has become apparent to me in this war (not that i thought it would be any different pre-war) is that the change many karma alliances really desired was more political influence not to level the playing field. Is that wrong? No it's not it just means that this is a war the same as any the hegemony ever launched and to label yourself the forces of justice and honor is laughable. Don't get me wrong I think there are Karma alliances who certainly do desire real change but there a certainly plenty of opportunistic alliances tagging on and using the ideals preached by the genuine to cover up their own greed and desire for power.

Not all of Karma is on the idealist platform that some of us are, I don't understand how requesting reparations from a defeated alliance (something which has been done in every major war in history pretty much) 'lessens their credibility'. No-one from Karma has ever said that we are out to end reparations – some have said that we wish to end excessive reparation demands, but what IRON have agreed to here is not that.

Thanks for the cut and paste answer to these foolish assumptions Bob.

[delgursh]

IRON could have always severed ties in time for this conflict. If IRON had a shred of decency it could have severed ties when it could no longer agree with the means of the Hegemony. IRON was hardly a small partner that could be intimidated into staying either.

Remember that IRON had these treaties and could have always cancelled them in the run-up to this conflict. IRON had a very long time to sever ties with the NPO and other Hegemony alliances, where other alliances did just that your alliance chose to stick with them.

We all knew this war was coming months ago. There are only a few alliances that can say they cut ties far enough down the road where it wasn't at least somewhat of an opportunistic move. We chose to stick with them because we signed a treaty with them in good faith. Just because down the road it looks a bit gloomy, doesn't mean you need to cut ties. These treaties were based on real friendships and mutual respect. Real relationships between alliances in CN take time to grow and flower...jumping from treaty to treaty is not something I cherish.

Admittedly, Q and 1V took some rough turns at times, but that doesnt mean you need to dump something youve come to really like being a part of. Q was a baby for all of us, and we didnt want to up and leave it behind if we could help course correct it. But obviously, we couldnt do it in time to save us all.

Edited May 27, 2009 by delgursh

[IamJoe]

I do respect IRON, as IRON members generally are quite polite and respectful, and IRON as an alliance was never one of those troll-houses.

That said, if you sign an MADP with an alliance, you are part of whatever crime they commit, you are responsible for it.

You don't sign a treaty that means an automatic participation in every offensive war with an alliance like NPO to later say "hey, we didn't start the wars!".

By MADP logic, you may as well have started it yourself, at least you lend the muscle to the crimes committed.

[OOC]A guy standing watch while his buddies beat up someone else is a criminal as well. A guy helping out his friends beating someone up by later joining the fray is also a criminal.[/OOC]

Participation in a crime, no matter for what reason (loyalty and friendship included) makes you guilty of the crime.

IRON and NPO are definitely not of the same kind, but the only way IRON could claim to not have participated in all of Hegemonies acts would have been in not signing 1V and Q, or leaving it before any crimes were permitted, as well as all the individual treaties IRON held and holds with all the 1V and Q alliances.

IRON was heavily tied to Hegemony, was one of the core alliances, its leadership involved in all that was going on (doesn't matter whether just being informed or making decisions, although my educated guess would be that IRON was powerful enough to make decisions), and thus there is no way backing out of it now.

Still doesn't change that you guys are a nice bunch, and that I like you delgursh

[OOC]Do you dump your wife/husband/boy-girlfriend at the first sign of trouble? No, you try to help them recover. Sometimes they do recover, sometimes they don't.[/OOC]

I fully recognize that 1v/Q was drifting into 'dangerous' territory behavioral wise for a while, but I like to think that we decided to stick to the ship and attempted to keep it afloat and on a better course rather than jumping to the lifeboats at the first sign of danger. Obviously in 20/20 hindsight, that was a mistake as the NPO had far too much influence and diplomatic/political power to be really ever maneuvered around,, but at the time it seemed the best option.

Just up and leaving a powerful bloc when you are a core member is an incredibly destructive move and would have sealed 1v/Q's fate and opened ourselves up to possible attack by both our 'former' allies and by other alliances who had potential grievances with 1v/Q.

Also, to cloud things further, at the time the NPO, tho hated by a fairly large number of people spread out through Cybernations, were respected as an absolutely rational, nearly always honorable, mostly careful and (shock) often diplomatic alliance. How do you predict that the NPO would lose their heads and attack a small alliance that hardly knew any better when it was completely obvious that said action would immediately invite in their own destruction and the destruction of their allies?

You could say "But they did it before" and point out some other alliance like GOLD, but that would still not be the case. The NPO acted rationally and mostly justifiable in attacking GOLD. GOLD could not have caused the destruction of allies and GOLD had performed acts of espionage on the NPO.

I could go on for ages, but I am exhausted. Time for sleep now.

[Venizelos]

Dude. Being friends with IRON means you get free hookers. $%&@ the haters.

IRON supported their allies, the NPO. They aren't bad people because of it, but they aren't entirely innocent. However, I do know they never were truly happy. This will be interesting where they go.

i witnessed an unprecedented lack of hookers during the 7 months of my stay in IRON

never where trully happy? please. IRON and NPO gov were and probably still are best pals. speaking against NPO made any members looked down upon by gov.

i know for a fact that the main reason why i wasn't promoted to a higher position in the IRON military after it emptied and after 5 months of officer service in that battalion was the scepticism i showed in my posts on the private IRON boards towards NPO.

people in gremlins think that IRON would go against NPO if given a fair chance, but it is mistaken.

i hope it won't cost you in the future.

Edited May 27, 2009 by Venizelos

[Kindom of Goon]

Not to beat a dead horse...but the argument was made that by us standing by and letting the Hegemony run its course, we are responsible. But everyone let the Hegemony run its course, so we are all responsible. IRON paid and is paying for its share, but we cant allow everyone to push blame around. Almost all of Bob is responsible in some way or another for the Hegemony and it staying in power. There are plenty of alliances that were a part of it...even ones we (and I) all love today.

I agree to an extent anyone who let these things happen is responsible, my point was some are more responsible than others. I mean surely you can see the difference between not doing anything about a crime because it could get you rolled and actively supporting a crime?