The Italian mess

[Uberstein]

My point again Baron is the metagaming was addressed and stopped already. Time to move onto the next episode and get back to role playing.

Really? All the metagaming was addressed? This stuff is just the tip of an iceberg.

Also, I'm capable of RPing and debating at the same time.

@Sarah:

The metagaming isn't going to stop until we the players just say NO. I'm already doing that, and I hope others realize that action is needed to stop crimes. The Mods and GM's do a great job, but we cannot leave it to them to do everything. We need to take some responsibility for CNRP as it's players and say no when people try to godmod or metagame. We need to stop these actions in their tracks.

Edited May 22, 2009 by BaronUberstein

[Markus Wilding]

My point again Baron is the metagaming was addressed and stopped already. Time to move onto the next episode and get back to role playing.

I've been RPing. I'm mainly waiting for others in the GNR to post and I'm waiting for Subtle in Seeing Red.

Also, I see Malatose read this...but didn't post.

[Firestorm]

Really? All the metagaming was addressed? This stuff is just the tip of an iceberg.

Also, I'm capable of RPing and debating at the same time.

If there is that much metagaming then point it out to one of the mods. Because your last posts on the top of the page didn't have much in the way of resolution in mind.

[Uberstein]

If there is that much metagaming then point it out to one of the mods. Because your last posts on the top of the page didn't have much in the way of resolution in mind.

I already stated how I think we should fix this problem. Having mods close topics for us helps, but it doesn't address the problem. The community as a whole needs to stop letting people metagame.

I don't see why you have a problem with the community doing something for itself. You act like there is an on-off switch, we are either solving things OOC or RPing, and that we can't do both.

I am not the kind of person who sits down and lets things happen.

[King Kevz]

I already stated how I think we should fix this problem. Having mods close topics for us helps, but it doesn't address the problem. The community as a whole needs to stop letting people metagame.

I don't see why you have a problem with the community doing something for itself. You act like there is an on-off switch, we are either solving things OOC or RPing, and that we can't do both.

I am not the kind of person who sits down and lets things happen.

Could you post some examples or tell us some examples so those of us that arn't quite sure what you are talking about understand?

[Firestorm]

Off-on switch no.. a case by case basis sort of thing yes. I think it is odd you say no to meta-gaming and I'm guessing you think the majority of it is coming from your ol' buddy KM.

If you think he is meta-gaming turn the focus back on yourself as you did help him get to where he is now. My final point, before I stagger off to bed, is to remind you that what is done isn't likely to be undone. If you want to make an impact on the CNRP scene then get busy role playing and confront cheating as it comes up in the future.

Lead the way by your example in character and ignore the rest of the garbage.

[Uberstein]

Could you post some examples or tell us some examples so those of us that arn't quite sure what you are talking about understand?

I've already posted a log, and it doesn't take much effort to see all the metagaming the nords are doing. Look at the Italian mess, look at the Greenland boarder buildup when all military movements were OOC. Look at their instant no-RP merger.

The evidence is all there, and those are things I can think of off the top of my head. If I took the time to look deeper, I would find much much more.

[Uberstein]

Off-on switch no.. a case by case basis sort of thing yes. I think it is odd you say no to meta-gaming and I'm guessing you think the majority of it is coming from your ol' buddy KM.

If you think he is meta-gaming turn the focus back on yourself as you did help him get to where he is now. My final point, before I stagger off to bed, is to remind you that what is done isn't likely to be undone. If you want to make an impact on the CNRP scene then get busy role playing and confront cheating as it comes up in the future.

Lead the way by your example in character and ignore the rest of the garbage.

KM is not my friend, he was at one point, and I did not condone any metagaming actions when I was on his side. I beleive that most of the cheating comes from the Nord side because I've seen it in action and the majority of the evidence points against them. I follow the evidence, not hunches.

Is I said before, I am not the kind of person who sits down and ignores the bad things that are happening, I take action against it. I don't give up.

Also, I already told you, I am RPing. I can do two things at once, I can work against metagaming and RP at the same time. I don't see why you have such a problem with me activly trying to stop cheating.

[King Kevz]

I understand that we all need to stop reacting IC to OOC events or knowledge that we have but sometimes those making the OOC comments need to understand that they also have a part to play in stoping the metagaming. If for example you and some allies were thinking of planning something against an enemy instead of typing it out on the forums use PM's that is what they are for. If people read that they may be attacked through an OOC comment then of course they will make some reaction IC its just natural reaction.

This poster fits perfectly for OOC comments.

Edited May 22, 2009 by King Kevz

[Centurius]

Ego's? Is it really an "ego" to expect people to explain unacceptable actions?

Unrelated to the current topic, but it shows that at least one of them doesn't respect the IC/OOC line. Usually people hang around similar acting people, and we have seen from the Nord's actions that something is up when it comes to their respect of the IC/OOC line. We need to stop taking BS and keep IC IC. The only change to these logs was highlighting a phrase I view as important.

I RP my characters as their own separate personalities. Uberstein isn't me, he's a character. He has IC justification for every action he does. I'm not the best RPer, but I try to remain consistent with my belief that IC should remain IC and that OOC has no part, and it annoys me when I see people breaking this for selfish reasons.

Good job pulling things out of context, the discussion at that moment was that fundamentally every ic action has an ooc basis as an ooc person posts it. If everything truly would be IC 90% of RP wouldn't have happened. Even you Uberstein crossed the line sometimes.

[Mergerberger II]

Right, first off, I'd just like to ask you all to quit complaining that we haven't yet posted in this thread as, first off, many of us have other things to do aside from CNRP. Many of us have work to be at, places to go, and alliances to run. Many of us here in Nordland are government officials in several different alliances, meaning that we have other priorities to take care of aside from this. For example, as some of you may or may not be aware of, Malatose is an Imperial Officer of Foreign Affairs in the New Pacific Order, as is Triyun, Lord Frost is high ranking government in =Western Empire=, BR is government for Zentih, I do many things for Polaris, and Martens lives in Argentina and is off doing many other things that we are not. Quite simply, we do not come and check these forums as often as many of you do, and thus we have not responded to your posts in this thread. Therefore, I would appreciate it if you ceased your complaints about us not posting in this thread and stopped accusing us of ignoring you purposefully. In fact, I did not even see this thread until just now. We are not ignoring you, we just haven't come into this thread yet. Additionally, I would like it very much if those of you with OOC contempt for myself or any of us who are IC members of Nordland to end such contempt, as we do not OOC hate any of you. We might think some of you are idiots sometimes, and get frustrated when you cannot see our side of things, but I know that you do the same thing, and I would just like you to know that none of us hate any of you.

On the issue at hand, the reasoning behind our calling out of Alvonia for what we called the 'colonization' of Italy was entirely an IC reasoning, though it may have been discussed in an OOC environment. The fact that it included things that we might not have technically been supposed to know about, like the United States of America becoming one nation, was an unfortunate misunderstanding on my part, and the thread did eventually degenerate into involving much discussion regarding the United States. This was unfortunate, as I would have liked to have seen the thread continue on and perhaps we could have resolved the issue in some manner, be it a true ultimatum to Alvonia, which I can tell you honestly we did not intend to give, or Alvonia's withdrawl from Italy or America, having seen pressure from both Tahoe, who was enforcing their anti-Colonialism doctrine, and pressure from Nordland. The fact that it was closed was a mod decision, not mine, and was the result of the demands from the member nations of the United States that their bloc be kept entirely secret, though you will note that such a massive political shift could really not be kept secret at all, and eventually word would get out to nations and to people that it was going to happen. IC actions like that cannot really come as a complete surprise, not with such different cultures like we see in the United States, with the Communist governments of Atlantis and Alvonia, and the Republican governments of Louisiana and New England. It really isn't like the Nordlandic merger of a week or so ago, but I digress.

For some of the basic mechanics and underlying themes of your post, I have several things to say. Firstly, the declaration made was not an ultimatum, we had absolutely no intention of invading Alvonia should you not agree to place Italy under protectorate from your nation or ours. Despite the notion that all of the world has that the Nordland is a warmongering nation bent on the destruction of every living thing, we are not. We did not want war coming from that, it was merely an RP building up to whatever it is that is coming. If you think about it rationally, it would be a very poor political move for the Nordland to have invaded. Such an invasion would have brought the entire ComIntern into war on a front where the Nordland was not the defender, thus we lose our huge advantage of our massive defensive networks. The reason for the statement was very simple, I was frustrated with the fact that American nations, whether the USA or not, held colonies within Europe. After reviewing how we would proceed with Martens and Malatose, I made the post requesting that Alvonia relinquish the territory in question to a protectorate whether by them or by us, or by both of us. It was very simple, and there was no ulterior motive behind it, I tell you this honestly. I do not make it my business to lie to the general community, I do like to tell the truth as often as possible.

Regarding our anti-colonialist policy, several of you have been kind enough to point out some hypocrisy in this policy. That is, that we don't really mind that Tahoe is in control of Gibraltar. Well first off, Tahoe is not in control of Gibraltar, he is merely a member of the Ferrous Pacific Brotherhood, which consists of Tahoe, the WNSR, Greater Germany, and a couple of other nations, and the Ferrous Pacific is in control of Gibraltar as a whole. As a coalition, we manage Gibraltar as we have since the old war of the FPB vs. Magna Europa, the last major inter-continental war. Truly it was the last world war, and since then, near all of the participants in it have collapsed. Aside from this, Tahoe has offered the Nordland full control of Gibraltar and we are currently in discussion with him regarding that.

With your final couple of points, I would like to say that not all of our IC statements have something to do with what actually happened. The Nordland has a fantastic propaganda machine, and the WNSR, which I remind you is based off of the book 1984, would never say that the enemy fought valiantly to the cold end. On top of that, we never claimed, as BR said, that your Italian claim was made illegitimately. It was traded for properly with South Dakota, and while this whole incident is incredibly unrealistic and would never happen in real life, it was RP-legitimate. The issue that we had was an In Character one regarding your colonization of Italy. Nothing more. I never said anything in my statement or in subsequent statements about whether or not your Italian claim was RP-legitimate. While it is not realistic that Italians would want to join an American state like the USA, that is an issue for another time and one that would not be dealt with in an IC discussion. Everything that we do In Character is done without OOC things meant to intervene, the fact that OOC matters like the legitimacy of your claim to Italy came into play was an issue raised not by Nordlandic nations, but by nations who opposed us in our statement.

In conclusion, and in short, we have not metagamed, we have not discussed the OOC legitimacy of your Italian claim, we apologize for not responding to this thread earlier than this, our reasoning for the thread was entirely anti-colonialist in nature.

Thank you, and I hope that we can get this issue resolved soon so that we may move forward in RP and have less OOC weight keeping it all down.

[Uberstein]

Good job pulling things out of context, the discussion at that moment was that fundamentally every ic action has an ooc basis as an ooc person posts it. If everything truly would be IC 90% of RP wouldn't have happened. Even you Uberstein crossed the line sometimes.

I can post the full logs and prove you wrong. I was asking why you rerolled for land and switched sides for OOC reasons.

But, because I'm nice, I'll only post the full logs with your permission.

[Markus Wilding]

Alright. Thakn you Merger. This can be closed now as it serves no purpose.

Lynneth, gimme mah 3mil.

Edited May 22, 2009 by N Reeki

[Sargun II]

Right, first off, I'd just like to ask you all to quit complaining that we haven't yet posted in this thread as, first off, many of us have other things to do aside from CNRP. Many of us have work to be at, places to go, and alliances to run. Many of us here in Nordland are government officials in several different alliances, meaning that we have other priorities to take care of aside from this. For example, as some of you may or may not be aware of, Malatose is an Imperial Officer of Foreign Affairs in the New Pacific Order, as is Triyun, Lord Frost is high ranking government in =Western Empire=, BR is government for Zentih, I do many things for Polaris, and Martens lives in Argentina and is off doing many other things that we are not. Quite simply, we do not come and check these forums as often as many of you do, and thus we have not responded to your posts in this thread. Therefore, I would appreciate it if you ceased your complaints about us not posting in this thread and stopped accusing us of ignoring you purposefully. In fact, I did not even see this thread until just now. We are not ignoring you, we just haven't come into this thread yet. Additionally, I would like it very much if those of you with OOC contempt for myself or any of us who are IC members of Nordland to end such contempt, as we do not OOC hate any of you. We might think some of you are idiots sometimes, and get frustrated when you cannot see our side of things, but I know that you do the same thing, and I would just like you to know that none of us hate any of you.

Except that you had over 24 hours and during that time you placed several very large posts in a factbook.

On the issue at hand, the reasoning behind our calling out of Alvonia for what we called the 'colonization' of Italy was entirely an IC reasoning, though it may have been discussed in an OOC environment. The fact that it included things that we might not have technically been supposed to know about, like the United States of America becoming one nation, was an unfortunate misunderstanding on my part, and the thread did eventually degenerate into involving much discussion regarding the United States. This was unfortunate, as I would have liked to have seen the thread continue on and perhaps we could have resolved the issue in some manner, be it a true ultimatum to Alvonia, which I can tell you honestly we did not intend to give, or Alvonia's withdrawl from Italy or America, having seen pressure from both Tahoe, who was enforcing their anti-Colonialism doctrine, and pressure from Nordland. The fact that it was closed was a mod decision, not mine, and was the result of the demands from the member nations of the United States that their bloc be kept entirely secret, though you will note that such a massive political shift could really not be kept secret at all, and eventually word would get out to nations and to people that it was going to happen. IC actions like that cannot really come as a complete surprise, not with such different cultures like we see in the United States, with the Communist governments of Atlantis and Alvonia, and the Republican governments of Louisiana and New England. It really isn't like the Nordlandic merger of a week or so ago, but I digress.

1. This "massive political shift" consists of a single meeting. Your failure to even see this points to me that you don't even do your research when criticizing.

2. You fail to see the main point behind the United States merger, which is to become an effective merging nation without becoming Nordland. Comparing both of these is like comparing two types of apples: they are both apples (or mergers, in this case), but they have different tastes and feels. We're not blending cultures, we're not forcing nations together, we're still essentially different countries and we'll slowly have a blend of cultures to become one (hopefully).

3. Entirely IC reasoning that was done because of things you only know OOC.

<@KaiserMartens> alvonia is gonna merge into USA so Italy shouldn't be USA >_>

<&hawk_11[gone]> what

<@VektorZero> but USA is OOC

<&hawk_11[gone]> it's not even on USA

<@VektorZero> so we're just being my idols

<@KaiserMartens> Exactly...basically once USA's merger is official

* &Maelstrom_Vortex[NPO] hrmms

<@KaiserMartens> half of italy will be labelled "USA"

<&hawk_11[gone]> well now

<@KaiserMartens> so we're like "Wtf just make it a protectorate or otherwise don't join USA lol"

Yeah, I believe that.

The rest of your post is either IC points that I can't debate (after all, IC is IC) or reiterating your previous points. And so, I take my leave as N Reeki's wishes.

Edited May 22, 2009 by Sargun

[Lynneth]

Alright. Thakn you Merger. This can be closed now as it serves no purpose.

Lynneth, gimme mah 3mil.

Promise is a promise.

Go buy infra.

[Subtleknifewielder]

Good job pulling things out of context, the discussion at that moment was that fundamentally every ic action has an ooc basis as an ooc person posts it. If everything truly would be IC 90% of RP wouldn't have happened. Even you Uberstein crossed the line sometimes.

Wrong. OOC actions may color IC actions, and I doubt anything we do is going to put a stop to that, but there should ALWAYS be an IC explanation for something that happens IC. No exceptions.

Alright. Thakn you Merger. This can be closed now as it serves no purpose.

Lynneth, gimme mah 3mil.

Please don't close it. Sargun had som good points in the post right after yours.

[Markus Wilding]

Wrong. OOC actions may color IC actions, and I doubt anything we do is going to put a stop to that, but there should ALWAYS be an IC explanation for something that happens IC. No exceptions.

Please don't close it. Sargun had som good points in the post right after yours.

Uh...OK...well I guess it can stay open, since it served no purpose right up until Sargun's post. I confuse myself.

[Firestorm]

Quick.. someone go Role play....

[Subtleknifewielder]

Quick.. someone go Role play....

Can't really do much right now. Most, if not all, of my current RP's are waiting for someone else to reply in them...

[Mergerberger II]

Wrong. OOC actions may color IC actions, and I doubt anything we do is going to put a stop to that, but there should ALWAYS be an IC explanation for something that happens IC. No exceptions.

Please don't close it. Sargun had som good points in the post right after yours.

let's not let this thread degenerate into an argument over the USA. If we want to argue the legitimacy of that merger, that is a discussion for another thread.

[Sir Keshav IV]

as BR said, that your Italian claim was made illegitimately. It was traded for properly with South Dakota, and while this whole incident is incredibly unrealistic and would never happen in real life, it was RP-legitimate. The issue that we had was an In Character one regarding your colonization of Italy. Nothing more

Yea I cut out the rest coz its about USA and the "Nordic Propaganda" which you seem to think is great. But this point spefically can also be given to your ally "Centurius" as IRL a government can't fall and all of its lands be annexed by an enemy and those citizens just move over to a pro-nordic nation. No sir, he re-rolled on an OOC basis which is UNREALISTIC.

[Subtleknifewielder]

let's not let this thread degenerate into an argument over the USA. If we want to argue the legitimacy of that merger, that is a discussion for another thread.

The USA was hardly the focal point for every single one of his points. Besides, it wouldn't be of-topic to talk about the US merger, as that's part of "the Italian mess."

[Centurius]

Yea I cut out the rest coz its about USA and the "Nordic Propaganda" which you seem to think is great. But this point spefically can also be given to your ally "Centurius" as IRL a government can't fall and all of its lands be annexed by an enemy and those citizens just move over to a pro-nordic nation. No sir, he re-rolled on an OOC basis which is UNREALISTIC.

Actually no citizens moved and the fall of Government was rp'd as a Revolution by a pro-nord majority in AWS who had been fighting for their say for a long time. Only the Government moved which was again played as a larger plan. While my motives were OOC there was a reasonable part of IC. OOCly I consider the trade of Italian lands legitimate ICly I do not as it was a Colony in all forms of the word.

[Lynneth]

Actually no citizens moved and the fall of Government was rp'd as a Revolution by a pro-nord majority in AWS who had been fighting for their say for a long time. Only the Government moved which was again played as a larger plan. While my motives were OOC there was a reasonable part of IC. OOCly I consider the trade of Italian lands legitimate ICly I do not as it was a Colony in all forms of the word.

Links to specific posts, please?

[Mergerberger II]

Yea I cut out the rest coz its about USA and the "Nordic Propaganda" which you seem to think is great. But this point spefically can also be given to your ally "Centurius" as IRL a government can't fall and all of its lands be annexed by an enemy and those citizens just move over to a pro-nordic nation. No sir, he re-rolled on an OOC basis which is UNREALISTIC.

Cry more, your tears make good gypsy repellent.