Interalliance Political Evolution...

[Ivan Moldavi]

I take it that this is what you are referring to:

I do apologize for the unfortunate description of events. It must be admitted that this is one of the more controversial elements of CN/NPO history. I have never seen Emperor Revenge exonerate you either publicly or privately, but Vladimir has a very long essay describing exactly how it was a coup, and how your reign wasn't legitimate. I can only imagine that if Emperor Revenge felt strongly to the contrary that he would have long since corrected those mistakes.

That being said, I never fully bought into the Moldavi-coup'd-Moo story. For one thing, you're right, Emperor Revenge resigned not under duress, but of his own free will. For another (as I allude to in my description) I viewed it more as Electron Sponge reaching out to regain influence in Pacifica rather than you deposing the Emperor for your own gain.

All of this I largely skipped for a couple of reasons:

1. It's a contraversial matter, and people would decide to argue with me regardless of how I chose to word it. It warrants an essay/investigation of its own. I didn't want to derail my essay with the particularities of that incident.
   
2. "The Moldavi Rebellion" isn't the topic of this essay, nor are the details of it's occurrence particularly salient to my conclusions. As I pointed out in the Preface, "It is my purpose to examine and articulate not the minutiae and trivia of the past but the underlying processes at work throughout our history..."
   

The fact that you do not seem to have a problem with my conclusions indicates to me that I have made a proper assessment in this matter. Again, I do apologize if you feel unjustly maligned by the way in which you were presented in this essay. If it is any consolation, I do believe that you come out positively portrayed on the whole of things if some what less than the Moldavi-mythology normally demands (a point which I thought that you would rather appreciate, actually).

First, Vladimir has one job in the NPO, that is to support the Emperor, whoever happens to be Emperor with control of the offsite headquarters and the ear of the masses, and alter the meaning and interpretation of Francoism to fit current reality. He has always been very good at it. That means rewriting history on occasion. The essay you reference is rife with revisionism and outright falsehoods regarding some supposed history of the Pacifican state that never actually existed, in this realm or the "other" one. Obviously anything written from within the government will support the government.

Second, I was exonerated by the Emperor of the NPO and allowed back into the Order with full rights as Imperator Emeritus regained. I even served on the IO staff for a short while and attempted to create a substructure (PCIA) that was ill received because the ultimate aim of the program was to see some of the IOs that have led to the current political situation removed. That didn't sit well with some parties so every effort to move forward with the project hit a brick wall and it failed. If the PCIA had been successful I doubt the war the world is currently in would be aligned in the same manner or turning out as it is, but that is hindsight and just speculation. But, I tend to be right.

And to sum up, I apologized to Moo over the coercion that took place, it shouldn't have happened in the manner it did. I have never stated anything contrary to my listed sequence of events, whereas some of your "sources" have been inconsistent over time.

Using the CN Wiki as a reference tool is not commendable. Many zealots have gone to great pains to restructure the events of those few days and rewrite history there and elsewhere. I know, I trained them to do it.

[Mogar]

God I love your posts Ivan.

[WalkerNinja]

First, Vladimir has one job in the NPO, that is to support the Emperor, whoever happens to be Emperor with control of the offsite headquarters and the ear of the masses, and alter the meaning and interpretation of Francoism to fit current reality. He has always been very good at it. That means rewriting history on occasion. The essay you reference is rife with revisionism and outright falsehoods regarding some supposed history of the Pacifican state that never actually existed, in this realm or the "other" one. Obviously anything written from within the government will support the government.

If your first position is correct (that Vladimir exists to support the Emperor) and your second position is also correct (the Emperor does not consider himself to have been coup'd) either:

1. Vladimir is not doing his job well, since he has not retracted his statements (which are necessarily contrary to the will of the Emperor); or
   
2. The Emperor is lying to you; or
   
3. You are lying
   

Personally, I don't care. I generally like you, so I don't like to believe that you are lying. I haven't interacted with Emperor Revenge too much, but when I have he's been reasonable and he doesn't stand to gain anything from lying really. The most likely case, then, is that Vladimir is "doin' it wrong." But like I said, the particulars don't truly matter to me.

Second, I was exonerated by the Emperor of the NPO and allowed back into the Order with full rights as Imperator Emeritus regained. I even served on the IO staff for a short while and attempted to create a substructure (PCIA) that was ill received because the ultimate aim of the program was to see some of the IOs that have led to the current political situation removed. That didn't sit well with some parties so every effort to move forward with the project hit a brick wall and it failed. If the PCIA had been successful I doubt the war the world is currently in would be aligned in the same manner or turning out as it is, but that is hindsight and just speculation. But, I tend to be right.

I'd love to have that verified by someone in a position to do so. Not that I doubt you per se', I simply want to make sure that I don't trade one biased view for another. Due diligence, bona fides, and all of that.

And to sum up, I apologized to Moo over the coercion that took place, it shouldn't have happened in the manner it did. I have never stated anything contrary to my listed sequence of events, whereas some of your "sources" have been inconsistent over time.

I am quite willing for my sources to be examined. If they are flawed, I don't have a problem with admitting that and looking for new ones. However, even flawed sources can yield useful information as long as you are aware of their flawed nature.

Using the CN Wiki as a reference tool is not commendable. Many zealots have gone to great pains to restructure the events of those few days and rewrite history there and elsewhere. I know, I trained them to do it.

This does little to bolster your credibility as a potential source of historical significance.

....................

Finally, let me re-state (to be exceedingly clear). This isn't an anti-Moldavi piece. I don't have anything against you, and I am quite happy that you and Emperor Revenge are getting along these days. I really quite like you. I'm not trying to argue with you, rather I'm trying to understand your perspective. I only restate this because your posts seem somewhat heated.

[Pingu]

your posts seem somewhat heated.

By Ivan's standards, this is all rather tepid. Jus' sayin'

I liked the piece, even if it failed adequately to stroke my ego with even a walk-on part. Of course, I don't accept the Francoist perspective, so I'm not really a qualified critic of this kind of work.

[Electron Sponge]

For what it's worth, Ivan's version of events is the factual one and Vladimir is a lying hack.

[Ivan Moldavi]

I am a lot of things, but one thing I am not is a liar. If I say it is so, then it is so.

For you to ask me for proof of something that is readily known by several thousand people (in regards to my return to the Order and the PCIA) is insulting.

As to your first point, you are being obtuse. I am not certain yet if it is intentional or otherwise but the point remains. The Emperor has acknowledged that he was not couped by myself. He is of the opinion that I shouldn't have asked him to step down to begin with, and I do not disagree with him on that point. Vladimir's essay was presented to the Body Republic while I was banned from the forum so that the masses within the alliance would align themselves with the ongoing governmental point of view. That doesn't change the sentiments expressed clearly in this thread at the onset of the turmoil, including comments from several IOs, the former Emperor Dilber and the current Emperor, Moo, all expressing joy and various "hails" at my return to the Emperorship.

In order for your postulate to be accurate all NPO members that posted in that thread (and the more responsive one within the NPO forum) had to have either been in on the "joke" which was that I was going to be overridden and removed by force in a few days, all lying or that things occurred as I stated they did.

If you are of the sycophantic opinion that anything written with more than 1000 words must automatically be true as some seem to be in regards to the philosophies bandied about these days then I have little left to discuss with you because you will fail to see reason at every turn and will continue to justify your piece with a "but X said that isn't how it happened so even though you can provide tangible proof that it was widely accepted I will call you a liar until you get X to recant their words" arguement.

I don't have that much faith in people to retract their errors, even if they are old.

[Fort Pitt]

written on my birthday, so it must be good

well it is, i read the first what would be a page and ill finish the rest when i have time, so far so good

[Doc Taco]

As someone who landed on Digiterra during GWII and only became involved in World Poilitics after GWIII I find this article to be very illuminating and very well written. I feel like I understand the early history of CN much better than I ever have before. Previous histories were either too full of facts and figures and dates or else too filled with the assumption that the audience knew the history just as well as the writer. This history avoided both of these pitfalls. While it was long, it was remarkably concise and informative. Props.

[WalkerNinja]

Ivan,

Brevity and pithiness is a skill that I have long desired to learn from Pingu. Unfortunately I tend to be much more wordy. Though this is the case, I do not accept Vladimir's essays as true because they are long. Some, I roundly disagree with ("the Outwards Spiral" and "What is to be Done" to name two). Neither does he agree with my humble offering, as a matter of fact (we've discussed the matter in private briefly).

This essay is my attempt to treat CN's history with academic integrity. I outlined my biases from the very beginning and I have offered disclaimers to indicate where my information is weak. Though you may not have much faith in people to be honest and correct their past errors, I will try to be the exception to the rule.

So let put it to you this way: If I removed the phrase "coup d'etat" from this essay and couched the episode in terms of "an ambiguous and internecine struggle for power, the particulars of which may never truly be known, but the form of which may be outlined as follows..." would that cause you to retract your grievances?

Put another way still, please point out to me where I am wrong. You believe that I have mischaracterized the "Moldavi Rebellion" as a coup. Your criticism is both noted and sincerely appreciated. Are there other specific areas where you find this essay to be lacking?

Edited May 14, 2009 by WalkerNinja

[WalkerNinja]

By Ivan's standards, this is all rather tepid. Jus' sayin'

I liked the piece, even if it failed adequately to stroke my ego with even a walk-on part. Of course, I don't accept the Francoist perspective, so I'm not really a qualified critic of this kind of work.

The love of Barry White be upon you.

[Electron Sponge]

Hair splitting over what to call the incident nearly two years later is sort of a waste of time. It was what it was and dwelling overly long on it will just give us all a headache.

The love of Barry White be upon you.

Alllll right. Now we're talking.

[Pingu]

No thread is unimproved by the addition of the walrus of lurve. I miss him so *sniff*

[WalkerNinja]

Update: I have successfully conned someone into putting this on the Wiki for me. I find it to be more readable in that format, and you are able to hyperlink to most of the episodes referenced if you are unfamiliar with them

http://cybernations.wikia.com/wiki/Interal...tical_Evolution

~WalkerNinja~