SSSW18 Surrenders

[Adrian LaCroix]

OOC: I don't believe that's possible anymore.

[MaGneT]

As for tech deals, as a dealer I am aware of the benefits to smaller nations, so you don't have to spell it out for me. I am criticizing this on principle.

Just reiterating that I don't speak for DT gov, even though I am a small part of it.

I don't work on principle. I work in the real world.

Tech will help both alliances grow. Our intentions are benevolent, and the only people who can truly say that are us and SSSW18. Ask them when the time comes.

@Ozujsko: Nah, keep it open. People disagree with us, they're entitled to do so. We're entitled to explain our point of view. Hopefully through discussion, we can reach understanding. That's what this is all about.

[twodivine]

Yo, MyWorld, request a lock.

Sorry can't do that.

I will request that no Dark Templar members below Archon post in this thread.

We will not try to debate what has been established and for why in OWF.

[Flyin Hawaiian]

o/ DT B)

[ziddy]

And why did you feel that white peace was no longer in order? Your answer that it was simply the case does not satisfy. There has to be a reason. Either you are simply greedy and are taking advantage of the situation in order to economically profit, or SSSW18 committed some act justifying the punishment. You will either come out and and admit that you are simply profiteering, and stop trying to hide it, or you will present evidence of some sort of wrong doing on the part of SSSW18.

As for tech deals, as a dealer I am aware of the benefits to smaller nations, so you don't have to spell it out for me. I am criticizing this on principle. This war was a protest of the policies of the NPO, and that is why nothing but white peace was offered up until this point. Maybe that wasn't the reasoning behind all cases, but they certainly made this statement. By doing this you have negated everything. This has become just another war. Do you not understand?

You did not have to force them into doing tech deals by making it a term for peace. An agreement could have been arranged, either formally or informally, after hostilities had ended. Why did you choose to go about this way instead, and in the process compromise what has been done?

First of all, I'm not sure why anyone has to answer to you, but in any case, maybe it was YOUR idea that this was all about white peace. Obviously it wasn't everyone's. As long as terms are fair, then we've come a long way and I don't see a reason to go further. It's hardly debatable that the larger cause for the war is to put down an oppressive hegemony. There's a vast difference between damaging terms and fair terms and to baw so much about the latter is just idiotic. How many past alliances would have been perfectly fine with terms such as these, rather than ones that put an almost unsurvivable strain on them? I'd think bob would be a much happier place without need for so much whining like this if things were like that.

[NinjaPirate]

And why did you feel that white peace was no longer in order? Your answer that it was simply the case does not satisfy. There has to be a reason. Either you are simply greedy and are taking advantage of the situation in order to economically profit, or SSSW18 committed some act justifying the punishment. You will either come out and and admit that you are simply profiteering, and stop trying to hide it, or you will present evidence of some sort of wrong doing on the part of SSSW18.

As for tech deals, as a dealer I am aware of the benefits to smaller nations, so you don't have to spell it out for me. I am criticizing this on principle. This war was a protest of the policies of the NPO, and that is why nothing but white peace was offered up until this point. Maybe that wasn't the reasoning behind all cases, but they certainly made this statement. By doing this you have negated everything. This has become just another war. Do you not understand?

You did not have to force them into doing tech deals by making it a term for peace. An agreement could have been arranged, either formally or informally, after hostilities had ended. Why did you choose to go about this way instead, and in the process compromise what has been done?

Will you chillax and mind your own business? Good God...

[NinjaPirate]

First of all, I'm not sure why anyone has to answer to you, but in any case, maybe it was YOUR idea that this was all about white peace. Obviously it wasn't everyone's. As long as terms are fair, then we've come a long way and I don't see a reason to go further. It's hardly debatable that the larger cause for the war is to put down an oppressive hegemony. There's a vast difference between damaging terms and fair terms and to baw so much about the latter is just idiotic. How many past alliances would have been perfectly fine with terms such as these, rather than ones that put an almost unsurvivable strain on them? I'd think bob would be a much happier place without need for so much whining like this if things were like that.

Amen!

[MaGneT]

Will you chillax and mind your own business? Good God...

It's a public announcement, it's everyone's business.

[Rebel Virginia]

I don't work on principle.

Then there's the difference between you and me. I can only hope you never gain any real power.

First of all, I'm not sure why anyone has to answer to you, but in any case, maybe it was YOUR idea that this was all about white peace. Obviously it wasn't everyone's. As long as terms are fair, then we've come a long way and I don't see a reason to go further. It's hardly debatable that the larger cause for the war is to put down an oppressive hegemony. There's a vast difference between damaging terms and fair terms and to baw so much about the latter is just idiotic. How many past alliances would have been perfectly fine with terms such as these, rather than ones that put an almost unsurvivable strain on them? I'd think bob would be a much happier place without need for so much whining like this if things were like that.

So, you don't have to answer to me? Wrong. Maybe not to be, but eventually you always answer to someone.

As for the terms, I never said they were unfair, and in any other war I'd have no qualms. But here you have a war waged against NPO's hegemony because of their practices. You gave something other than white peace to a periphery alliance. If this were a core alliance such as NPO, IRON, or GGA, then terms would be due, but SSSW18? What crime did they ever commit while enjoying the NPO's protection?

Do you know you have done here? You validated the "Karma hypocrisy" argument NPO was tossing around. You compromised on one the principle of which many were fighting this war for, making it all for naught, and now NPO and Co. have something to back up their propaganda with. Well done.

Don't even get me started on the attempted extortion of SSSW18. What was it, $600 million you tried to get off them at first? Yes, I know after hours of work Karma finally got you to back down, but the fact you even tried. Justify that to me. Justify it. Might makes right? If so then I want nothing to do with you or your kind after this war is done. That is the lowest of the low.

Also, calling me a whiner are we for criticizing a policy? You've taken lines from the NPO's playbook quickly. And for the record, I am willing to resign from MK and back up my words if you wish it to be.

Will you chillax and mind your own business? Good God...

Whatever is brought before the world by very nature becomes everybody's business. I will not "chillax." I didn't do so when I perceived injustices being committed by the NPO, and I will not do so when I see others doing the same.

[Darth Revan]

Because there seems to be some confusion. There are no autor's rights any longer which means you can not request a lock any longer so stop talking about it.

[ziddy]

Then there's the difference between you and me. I can only hope you never gain any real power.

So, you don't have to answer to me? Wrong. Maybe not to be, but eventually you always answer to someone.

As for the terms, I never said they were unfair, and in any other war I'd have no qualms. But here you have a war waged against NPO's hegemony because of their practices. You gave something other than white peace to a periphery alliance. If this were a core alliance such as NPO, IRON, or GGA, then terms would be due, but SSSW18? What crime did they ever commit while enjoying the NPO's protection?

Do you know you have done here? You validated the "Karma hypocrisy" argument NPO was tossing around. You compromised on one the principle of which many were fighting this war for, making it all for naught, and now NPO and Co. have something to back up their propaganda with. Well done.

Don't even get me started on the attempted extortion of SSSW18. What was it, $600 million you tried to get off them at first? Yes, I know after hours of work Karma finally got you to back down, but the fact you even tried. Justify that to me. Justify it. Might makes right? If so then I want nothing to do with you or your kind after this war is done. That is the lowest of the low.

Also, calling me a whiner are we for criticizing a policy? You've taken lines from the NPO's playbook quickly. And for the record, I am willing to resign from MK and back up my words if you wish it to be.

I personally haven't done anything, other than develop many clusterheadaches reading all the whining going on.

While we are fighting NPO's tactics, I would argue that light actions such as these are hardly and far from their "tactics." If you'd still claim hypocrisy then I believe you need help. It's like comparing someone who swats a bug to Ted Bundy.

I don't agree at all with the attempt at such a high reps number, but the fact that it was not enforced still says a great deal for the differences between us and the hegemony, and regardless, without being a solid bloc, we are going to have differing opinions among us. As such, to try and exert your own will as hard as you're trying is contradictory. SSSW18 may have just been honoring treaties, but war is war, and as mentioned earlier, losing isn't supposed to be pleasant, just not cruel.

[MaGneT]

Don't even get me started on the attempted extortion of SSSW18. What was it, $600 million you tried to get off them at first? Yes, I know after hours of work Karma finally got you to back down, but the fact you even tried. Justify that to me. Justify it. Might makes right? If so then I want nothing to do with you or your kind after this war is done. That is the lowest of the low.

A MOON official already PM'd you, I'd assume he covered their request for those reps.

And what is there to justify? A mutual rebuilding program? You think I'm just making that up so I look good?

Believe me, if this was about "making them pay" and extortion I'd be just as against it as you are. I hate the idea of beating down a beaten alliance. I find the current situation to be fair to both sides, and that's good enough for me. If it wasn't fair to both sides, I'd be raising pure hell (as I did when someone in the discussion suggested something oppressive). White peace isn't the only fair peace term. We both know that.

RV, your vision of Karma is slightly skewed. If its purpose was to throw white peace and flower petals everywhere, it probably would be called something more along the lines of Sunshine Incorporated. Karma (to my interpretation) was formed to topple the Hegemony and establish a freer Bob. Not universal white peace.

[Rebel Virginia]

I personally haven't done anything, other than develop many clusterheadaches reading all the whining going on.

While we are fighting NPO's tactics, I would argue that light actions such as these are hardly and far from their "tactics." If you'd still claim hypocrisy then I believe you need help. It's like comparing someone who swats a bug to Ted Bundy.

Trying to extort millions in private channels away from the public eye where none can see is a trademark tactic of the NPO. Had Karma not intervened, MOON would have gotten away from it. I don't care that the end result is mere tech deals. They tried to extort. Period.

I don't agree at all with the attempt at such a high reps number, but the fact that it was not enforced still says a great deal for the differences between us and the hegemony, and regardless, without being a solid bloc, we are going to have differing opinions among us. As such, to try and exert your own will as hard as you're trying is contradictory. SSSW18 may have just been honoring treaties, but war is war, and as mentioned earlier, losing isn't supposed to be pleasant, just not cruel.

It speaks volumes that Karma prevented MOON from doing what it had planned to do, I agree, but it also speaks volumes for MOON's own character that they even tried it at all, and I will not be silent until everyone knows. As for war, yes, defeat is not pleasant at all, and as I have stated I am more upset because the tech deal terms has validated hegemony propaganda by giving them an inch.

It was more a stupid PR move than anything else, because it was done in this war. There were other ways to do it, such as giving white peace and then arranging a mutual rebuilding plan. Why not do it that way? You accomplish the same thing without allowing the NPO to say "told you so."

[ziddy]

But when you take a mile when given an inch, people are just going to be that much more annoyed. The hegemony propaganda is just laughable, especially with, in essence, admitting to being what everyone has always claimed them to be.

[Rebel Virginia]

But when you take a mile when given an inch, people are just going to be that much more annoyed. The hegemony propaganda is just laughable, especially with, in essence, admitting to being what everyone has always claimed them to be.

Believe me when I say you're wrong. Free-thinkers perhaps, but you don't know how most people work. There are people in alliances on the Hegemony side, who sympathized with Karma actually, now reconsidering. Same with some on the Karma side. Never underestimate the effect that a lie, however untrue, can have on the weak minded. That is perhaps the main reason I am upset. A horrible move.

Then there is MOON's attempted extortion, and having spoken with mattski133, I am now convinced that MOON is simply a petty alliance run by petty people. I'd advised people to stay away from them. That conversation left a bitter taste in my mouth, and I have lost all respect I had for MOON.

[Hydro]

Believe me when I say you're wrong. Free-thinkers perhaps, but you don't know how most people work. There are people in alliances on the Hegemony side, who sympathized with Karma actually, now reconsidering. Same with some on the Karma side. Never underestimate the effect that a lie, however untrue, can have on the weak minded. That is perhaps the main reason I am upset. A horrible move.

Then there is MOON's attempted extortion, and having spoken with mattski133, I am now convinced that MOON is simply a petty alliance run by petty people. I'd advised people to stay away from them. That conversation left a bitter taste in my mouth, and I have lost all respect I had for MOON.

Logs of extortion please? For all we know, MOON was just trying to barter a good deal for their alliance or play good cop-bad cop.

[Merrie Melodies]

Believe me when I say you're wrong. Free-thinkers perhaps, but you don't know how most people work. There are people in alliances on the Hegemony side, who sympathized with Karma actually, now reconsidering. Same with some on the Karma side. Never underestimate the effect that a lie, however untrue, can have on the weak minded. That is perhaps the main reason I am upset. A horrible move.

Then there is MOON's attempted extortion, and having spoken with mattski133, I am now convinced that MOON is simply a petty alliance run by petty people. I'd advised people to stay away from them. That conversation left a bitter taste in my mouth, and I have lost all respect I had for MOON.

o/ RV

Booo Petty Moon!

Look forward to the day they are rolled

[Ragashingo]

The rate we were paying GATO was 3m/100 tech plus retirement bonuses, which every GATO nation had the option to opt out of, which of course was an oppressive rate that crushed the spirit of the brown team.

However, SSSW18's rate of 3m/100 tech by is benefical to all, which is why they are being forced to do it.

Imposition of a Viceroy

Denial of foreign trade deals

Membership expulsion

Forced government reorganization

All those seem to be missing from SSSW18's terms.

[Ragashingo]

Judging by the Harem members posting in the OWF, it looks to me like not all of the Hive stands for the same things.

Some members think Karma means what it actually means. Some think Karma simply means revenge. The later being the group yourself is included in.

I had hoped the more militant members of Karma were in the minority, but after these terms I suspect that is not true.

Karma could have made a change for the better in this war, but it looks like they will squander their ability to improve CN in favor of taking the throne of tyranny for themselves. Which is understandable. Getting a taste for blood tends to do that.

o/ Oppression

o/ Tyranny

o/ Horde

o/ Exaggeration

30 days of tech deals is better than what FAN, or GATO, or many other alliances got under the oppressive tyrannical horde. Please note the bolded term: B-E-T-T-E-R.

Edited May 3, 2009 by Ragashingo

[Rebel Virginia]

Logs of extortion please? For all we know, MOON was just trying to barter a good deal for their alliance or play good cop-bad cop.

I don't have logs of the extortion, but I do have logs of people confirming that the extortion took place, and that Karma had to intervene and convince MOON not to demand $600 mil? Would those suffice?

And also, they were not trying to play good cop-bad cop, because if you're going to be offering white peace common sense dictates that such a game wouldn't be necessary.

o/ Exaggeration

30 days of tech deals is better than what FAN, or GATO, or many other alliances got under the oppressive tyrannical horde. Please note the bolded term: B-E-T-T-E-R.

Except SSSW18 never did anything to either GATO or FAN, and often advocated for white peace, to the point of usually dropping terms after agreed to so that a de facto white peace would exist. Never was SSSW18 part of the core group of the 'horde' either. As said, if this were NPO, GGA, or Valhalla I could understand, but SSSW18? An alliance on the very edge? You've got to be kidding me.

Edited May 3, 2009 by Rebel Virginia

[mattski133]

o/ RV

Booo Petty Moon!

Look forward to the day they are rolled

I personally feel that my conversation with RV went very well, and both of our viewpoints were clearly communicated to the point where we really had nothing more to say to each other. We are just two different people I guess.

As for our rolling, if even the mighty NPO can be rolled, I imagine, we could be very easily as well. Such, is life.

[Darvel]

Trying to extort millions in private channels away from the public eye where none can see is a trademark tactic of the NPO. Had Karma not intervened, MOON would have gotten away from it. I don't care that the end result is mere tech deals. They tried to extort. Period.

It speaks volumes that Karma prevented MOON from doing what it had planned to do, I agree, but it also speaks volumes for MOON's own character that they even tried it at all, and I will not be silent until everyone knows. As for war, yes, defeat is not pleasant at all, and as I have stated I am more upset because the tech deal terms has validated hegemony propaganda by giving them an inch.

It was more a stupid PR move than anything else, because it was done in this war. There were other ways to do it, such as giving white peace and then arranging a mutual rebuilding plan. Why not do it that way? You accomplish the same thing without allowing the NPO to say "told you so."

The thought of harsh terms, which never made it anywhere near being official or public?

And they would've gotten away with it too, if it wasn't for that meddling Karma!

o/ SAME TASTE DIFFERENT NAME \o

[MaGneT]

Look forward to the day they are rolled

Excellent spirit of the New Era of Bob!

I don't have logs of the extortion, but I do have logs of people confirming that the extortion took place, and that Karma had to intervene and convince MOON not to demand $600 mil? Would those suffice?

You're not entirely correct here, RV, but I'm not at liberty to discuss that here.

[Nizzle]

Rebel Virginia, I find it mildly hilarious that you of all people are making some of the points in this thread.

I certainly hope you don't consider tech trading, as part of terms, to be something new and evil. Gremlins pioneered this to the anger of the Hegemony, and in fact I believe the terms set out for SSSW18 are better than white peace. Why? Because white peace doesn't help foster a relationship and grow a defeated alliance. It cuts them loose on their own.

[Ragashingo]

Except SSSW18 never did anything to either GATO or FAN, and often advocated for white peace, to the point of usually dropping terms after agreed to so that a de facto white peace would exist. Never was SSSW18 part of the core group of the 'horde' either. As said, if this were NPO, GGA, or Valhalla I could understand, but SSSW18? An alliance on the very edge? You've got to be kidding me.

Guess what? I'm not.

As Matthew George said:

...when you take up arms against another alliance you should not expect to get off scott-free in the peace treaty, no matter what brought you to do battle with them.

They entered a war and lost it. The very fact that they are only being given money for tech is a sign that good changes have indeed come because of Karma. If Karma actually does something wrong then feel free to speak up about it, but all this concern over such lenient peace terms is nothing more than crying wolf.

Edited May 3, 2009 by Ragashingo